Blackjacks 8.7AK

[Blackjack]

So after four years of stellar service out of my basket case 8274, I decided that I wanted to try something different. I have taken apart that winch I dont know how many times trying to tweak every last bit of no load speed out of it. And fast it is, so fast in fact that the guy I sold it too asked if I could possibly slow it down a little. But as much speed as I gained on the top end, I only gained a small amount at full pull.

So my goals of this build are to strike a better balance between no load and full pull line speeds, increase overall pulling power and duty cycle, and improve its ability to take on the Alaska climate. This will not be a twin motor competition winch, but rather a hardcore sleeper that can be built with mostly off the shelf parts.

This build will be happening in several phases as time and materials permit.

So we begin with a new 8274 PN 38631.

[Blackjack]

Phase one is re-power and re-lube. The current 8274 uses the Bosch series wound motor PN 39972. A lot of people call this the 8274-50 motor, but this is not necessarily true. The 8274-50 (which marked the 50th anniversary of Warn) came out several months before the new motor did. This motor, once dubbed BIC (Best in Class) was put into production when they introduced the HS series winches. It is a very good motor, but not without its weaknesses. It is prone to corroding between the brush plate and the motor case, as well as the brush end ball bearing.

So the motor I chose for the 8.7AK is not the 9.5xp motor PN 68608, but rather its brother PN 70865. This is a series-parallel wound motor like the 68608, but is used in Warns industrial line.

[Blackjack]

So the new motor should add a little over 500 lbs of pull, a solid two feet a minute increase in full pull line speed and much more run time due to its heavier windings (this motor is five pounds heavier than the 39972 but only two pounds heavier than the original prestolite used in the 70's). So to back this up I also replaced the solenoids with PN 68379. These are the solenoids from the power in side of the 9.5xp. The beauty of this is that they fit under the 8274-50 control pack cover with no mods needed. You can see in the pic the difference between the 68379 and the stock 72631

[Blackjack]

So the items I am using for the re-lube are Roadranger SAE 50 Full Synthetic Transmission lube and Chevron Ultiplex Synthetic EP grease.

The 50 weight synthetic was developed specifically as the factory fill for Roadranger transmissions. With a cold pour point below -40F and recommended change interval of 500,000 miles in a Roadranger transmission, I feel this is the best choice for lubrication for the 8.7AKs gear box.

The Ultiplex Synthetic EP is a highly water resistant grease that works well at very low temperatures. The only two places that need grease are the dead end drum bushing and the brake pawl.

[Blackjack]

So with the new oil in (I put a little bit more that the six ounces that Warn recommends, but do know that some can run out until the oil level is below the drum seal) but before I bolted the motor on, I mounted the winch to my Jeep. The reason I did this is that with the motor off of the winch, I can easily grab the drum and see if I have the winch bolted up squarely. A lot of people complain about how bad their 8274 free spools as well as some complain that it draws a lot of amps under no load. This is typically due to two things, a poorly built winch plate, or a winch that is bolted to the plate in a bind. A few minutes of tweaking now will make all the difference later.

Once I had adjusted the winch to the mount, it was just a matter of bolting on the motor (hint: pull the clutch all the way into free spool and remove the clutch assembly before removing the old motor), and the control pack. I make sure to use a little NYK-77 corrosion guard on the motor posts before putting the boots on, and a little on the solenoid pack connections does not hurt either.

As you can see from the pics, other than a slight increase in gap between the control pack and the gear case, this thing looks just like any other 8274-50.

This completes phase one. Phase two will deal with increasing the motors water resistance better than it is now (which is better than what it was stock), and couple of tweaks to the gearbox and brake.

[rajincajingt]

great tech!!!!

cant wait to see the rest!!!

[randii]

Good stuff, Dan -- I look forward to Phase II. With no disrespect intended to anyone else, NOBODY knows these winches better than Blackjack.

FWIW, I've been kicking around a winter project of upgrading the spool bushings to sealed bearings, but haven't got any further than measuring the bits and pieces. The dead-end drum bushing is pretty simple, and my burned-down-and-restored junkyard 8274 needs a new endplate to replace the over-heated and potato-chipped endplate that is on there now. The motor-end bushing seats into a bearing pocket in the lower gear housing with much less meat, haven't even begun to figure that side out.

Out of principle, here's a link to BV's excellent rebuild writeup: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/8274/
Blackjack doesn't need it, but others who follow here will...

Randii

[Blackjack]

Originally Posted by randii

Good stuff, Dan -- I look forward to Phase II. With no disrespect intended to anyone else, NOBODY knows these winches better than Blackjack.

FWIW, I've been kicking around a winter project of upgrading the spool bushings to sealed bearings, but haven't got any further than measuring the bits and pieces. The dead-end drum bushing is pretty simple, and my burned-down-and-restored junkyard 8274 needs a new endplate to replace the over-heated and potato-chipped endplate that is on there now. The motor-end bushing seats into a bearing pocket in the lower gear housing with much less meat, haven't even begun to figure that side out.

Out of principle, here's a link to BV's excellent rebuild writeup: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/8274/
Blackjack doesn't need it, but others who follow here will...

Randii

Putting a ball bearing on the dead end is something I am working on. Trouble I am having is finding a 3.5 inch ID sealed ball bearing that does not cost a fortune. As for the gearbox side, there is not much you can do without machining a new case with more meat for a bearing. I have thought about playing around with different bushing materials, but since that is oil lubed I am not sure how much could be gained over the nylatron that is there.

[mikey_d05]

Ok, so I just got done rebuilding my 8274 with an XP motor, and the spool binding on a fresh winch is pissing me off. I REALLY like the idea of a ball bearing on the non-case end, and I have an idea.

What if you took a piece of round stock and turned it so it fits down inside the spool, drill four holes in the spool and rosette weld it in place. Then (beforehand actually) turn down the end of the slug to fit inside the bearing of your choice. That way you won't be stuck hunting a gargantuan bearing and you're more likely to be able to find a replacement if the time ever comes.

You're stuck making a new end cap unless you find a bearing with the correct OD to fit inside the existing piece. Just a suggestion.

[kwrangln]

Originally Posted by Blackjack

I have taken apart that winch I dont know how many times trying to tweak every last bit of no load speed out of it. And fast it is, so fast in fact that the guy I sold it too asked if I could possibly slow it down a little. But as much speed as I gained on the top end, I only gained a small amount at full pull.

Kickass tech Blackjack.

Anyway you could go into detail on what you did to the previous winch? How much would apply to a HS9500i? Dont feel like I need any more pull, but could always use some more speed. If you could keep other Warn users in mind with the future write ups it would be well appreciated (ie these solenoids will also work in the following models, etc)

Thanks man, gonna be watching this one, sometimes wish I had gone the 8274 route when I was winch shopping, but the HS hasn't let me down yet.

[randii]

Dan, check the Emerson Sphere-Roll (sp?) sealed bearings. Emerson had a pretty good selection of off-the-shelf dimensioned sizes when I was last thinking seriously about this. They also has some thin ID/OD dimensioned cage-retained roller bearings that looked promising for the motor end. I don't recall the prices being too bad, but EPT is no Timken, and you may (not) get what you (didn't) pay for...

As little metal as they left on the gearbox side, modifications will be tough. Dunno whether oiled moly-nylon REALLY gives much drag as-is -- I think most free-spool drag is from the dead-end bushing and gearbox friction, but a fully roller-suspended drum sounds cool, from a gee-whiz perspective, which is fully outside of your basic-mods and mostly off-the-shelf scope.

I'm looking forward to Phase II,

Randii

[Blackjack]

Originally Posted by kwrangln

Kickass tech Blackjack.

Anyway you could go into detail on what you did to the previous winch? How much would apply to a HS9500i? Dont feel like I need any more pull, but could always use some more speed. If you could keep other Warn users in mind with the future write ups it would be well appreciated (ie these solenoids will also work in the following models, etc)

Thanks man, gonna be watching this one, sometimes wish I had gone the 8274 route when I was winch shopping, but the HS hasn't let me down yet.

Most of what I had done was to polish every bearing and bushing surface, and to run what tolerances I could play with on the loose side. Using better oil and grease helped as well. As for making the HS faster, your biggest problem is the in drum brake. That is a big source of drag and not an easy problem to cure.

[FXR UPR]

Best thread in a long time. Ive seen the dual motor setups from england but this is awsome. Great tech.

[BEAR]

Any new updates on this?

[Blackjack]

I have some stuff done and will be working on it some more as soon as a few more pieces show up.

[Bondage]

I couldn't help but laugh when this thread was linked. I have been jumping back and forth between here and Brook's site almost daily looking for update's. And no I don't have a life.

[astjp2]

Did you ever find a bearing that would work for the dead side? I am leaving Anchorage next month to the lower 48, I could stop in Motion Industries to see if they have one like the one in the lower part of a NP203 transfer case...I would love to see your winch when I get back. Tim

[Blackjack]

I have been way to busy this year to get what I wanted done. I have some ideas for the bearing, but until I can sit down with the machine shop it is on hold. I did upgrade my alternator and battery this year and the few times I out it never batted an eye at everything I have hooked the TJ up to. Things should start calming down at work and I can get back on it here soon.

[ddestruel]

rattle rattle


currious what the internal differences are between the 68608 vs 70865 and wouldnt the heat sinc be helpful to either? Do they both create the same amout of HP/ tq? is the industrial made to sustain longer duty cycles? warn's page was very vague about tht motor offering no specs on it.


It appears that for most people using the new 8274 and / or who have upgraded to the 68608 motor but that they have not upgraded to the 68379 solenoids.


the reason for asking is I know a few people locally whom are planning on repairing their 8274's and replacing the motors (corrosion) and when faced with the option of the bosch replacement 39972 and side gear or upgrading to the larger hp motors they are not sure if there will be any other necessary upgrades along with it. Reading your thread makes me think that if they do the 68608 that selenoids may not be mandatory but are highly advised..... Cost not being the factor on the motors and moderate - full load pulling power longevity being thier concern. (all have upgraded to the basic newer selenoids and control pack from Warn)


with all the threads on here about upgrading to the bigger hp motors on the 8274 and how simple it is, your thread was the only one that touched on the industrial motor 70865 and on using larger selenoids and giving care to other areas of the system.

Kind of like installing a 401 in a jeep if you are still running a SR4 and a stock amc model 20 in the rear you obviously missed the the point that other parts of the system are now suffering from the increased power draw. looking at the whole picture.

Anyways any additional data comparing the two motors would be helpful, and any updates on your build would be great.


Cheers

[ddestruel]

since blackjacks been busy. i'll post my results.

following your upgrades i have been very happy with the speed and performance of the winch.

at first i did not upgrade solenoids and the additional load of the new motor does cook the smaller solenoids with heavy loads.
i ended up upgrading to the larger solenoids and so far have had no issues with any long pulls nor short pulls without a snatch block. on long 100+ ft pulls that were heavy straining pulls sometimes with multiple rigs that had to be pulled over the same distance or repeated pulls over the same terrain the stock solenoids did get hot and fail quite quickly but the motor rarely got excessively hot. recently pulled the motor to inspect the armatures and they were spotless. never had an issue with lack of power or stalling out. cables were all upgraded when i did fluid change (yes i had some road ranger fluid) and motor upgrade.

I can now run 1st gear low range let the clutch out allow the rig to idle/ asist the winch and the winch is actually just barely pulling the rig faster than the rig is moving

gret info in this thread thanks for the write up