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Old 01-03-2008, 10:25 PM   #1 (permalink)
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foers Vector winch, frame questions

I think I want to set up a vector winch in my truck, probably a warn 15k hydraulic. is there any frame mods that need to be done since pulling from the front will be compressing the frame instead of tugging from the front? It does have a 3/4 ton C channel frame thats really tall, I think its 8 inches or so. should I box it in?

also anyone know how far away the winch would need to be from the rear fairlead in order for it to spool up nice by itself?

for those who don't know what a vector or foers winch setup is, its a mid mounted winch where the cable runs through a snatch block at the rear, then through some tube to the front, so you can use the winch to pull from the front or the rear without doing any changes.
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:24 PM   #2 (permalink)
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anyone have this kind of setup?
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:24 PM   #3 (permalink)
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well I guess im going to try it out. im probably going to put a 15k hydro winch above the rear axle. the cable will run through some 1 inch DOM tube up to the front. anyone have any other ideas I can incorporate into my setup?
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I've been considering a similar setup.... so naturally, I'm intrigued.

In my thinking, I'll be mounting it behind the cab, with some rollers/pulley wheels to guide it... then I could just swap the cable to either end with a minimum of drama....

I do like the idea of running it to one end or the other, with ONE pulley to change direction.... then it could be built with the forces going in the usual directions, instead of pulling down on the frame.....

hmmmm
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Old 01-19-2008, 08:34 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I'd like to do the same thing, been looking for someone who's done it but haven't had a luck finding anything.
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Old 01-19-2008, 09:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Andy Ibex had the factory option fitted, pictures to be found HERE


not a lot of fun to drag the line out, even more fun when the line snaps
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
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some volvo c303s had setups like that i would look to see how they are setup
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Andy Ibex had the factory option fitted, pictures to be found HERE


not a lot of fun to drag the line out, even more fun when the line snaps
Cool looking setup - but this statement makes me wonder how much he's used it:
"With the hi-speed 8274, I have to use Plasma rope, steel rope birds nests and gets destroyed almost instantly."

I find it hard to belive that plasma rope would last more than 1 or 2 pulls with all of those blocks and pulleys, and the steel rope he has pictured is way too thin for an 8274 with snatch blocks.


You might also try searching for sidewinder winches - I saw one mounted in the passenger floor of a scout that was set up for forward and backward pulls.
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I like the idea...

I wouldn't worry about the frame compression to much. remember if you are in 2wd you are pushing the entire truck from behind the mid point. With the Dodge suspension, it does seem like it could unload the front while winching, which as long as you were putting power to it, it would probably be fine...

Howeever after staring at and trying to figure out a simple way to make it work....

I gave up and bought a second winch

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Old 01-19-2008, 06:10 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Cool looking setup - but this statement makes me wonder how much he's used it:
"With the hi-speed 8274, I have to use Plasma rope, steel rope birds nests and gets destroyed almost instantly."

I find it hard to belive that plasma rope would last more than 1 or 2 pulls with all of those blocks and pulleys, and the steel rope he has pictured is way too thin for an 8274 with snatch blocks.

Andys used his winch a fair bit, bear in mind the most common type of competition in the UK is winch challenges. thats the stock wire the comes with an 8274

on an Eastern tip, heres Roopes - his mid winch hauls front and rear in a similar style and backs up his main front winch, its on plasma too, it gets abused on a massive scale and holds up


frogs run steel cable on thier mid winch, its synchonised 1:1 with the wheel speed - seeing them winch a 30mph is nuts
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I did a vector type winch conversion to a LandRover/RangeRover hybrid some years ago. I'll see if I can find a photo. I used the standard issue wire rope that came with the 8274 that ran back to a pulley just forward of the roller fairlead on the rear crossmember. The rope went round the pulley to a second one inboard of the left hand frame rail,then out to a narrow roller fairlead on the left hand side of the front bumper near the frame rail via a dead straight guide tube that ran along the left side the engine transmission assembly. For rear pulls or lowering the truck down ravines the end of the rope was attached to an anchor point on the front bumper, and with a hooked shaped piece of steel rod we reach in through the rear roller fairlead to snag the rope and pull it out through the rollers. The rope was then attached to a tree or similar via a snatch block. During testing the direction change pulley mounting point on the frame rail was found to be inadequate and required substantial reinforcing. I don't really understand the concerns over frame strength unless the front of the rig was nosed up against a tree and was winching another badly stuck rig out of difficulties. At any rate the RangeRover frame rails appear up to the pulling power of an 8274. The distance from the winch drum to the pulley block was around 5ft which was ok for allowing the rope to spool itself on reasonably well, at least better than some of the hidden front mount winch installations I've seen. As mentioned, depending on how the winch installation was executed,a broken rope could prove to be a major PITA in the middle of a mud bog or similar, but in our case the rope hook was attached to the rope with reusable ''bulldog grips'' and with the straight guide tube and gap between the body and frame it would be a relatively easy job to run the rope through again. I suck at linking internet pics, but try this, scroll 2/3rds down the page to a photo of setup.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2...r=asc&start=30
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Old 01-20-2008, 06:11 AM   #12 (permalink)
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those are some sweet setups! where do I find a mini winch fairlead at?

edit: those things have way too many U joints haha, damn!
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Old 01-20-2008, 08:44 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Andys used his winch a fair bit, bear in mind the most common type of competition in the UK is winch challenges. thats the stock wire the comes with an 8274
That's the problem, the stock wire that comes with an 8274 is 5/16" - which an 8274 is perfectly capable of snapping without the aid of a snatch block.


As far as the Rover here: http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2...r=asc&start=30

Wow, that is a mechanical work of art.
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Old 01-20-2008, 09:34 AM   #14 (permalink)
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That's the problem, the stock wire that comes with an 8274 is 5/16" - which an 8274 is perfectly capable of snapping without the aid of a snatch block.


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You do realize that a snatch block does not increase the stress on the cable, correct? Also when the 8274-50 came out, it had 3/8" cable
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Old 01-20-2008, 09:55 AM   #15 (permalink)
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You do realize that a snatch block does not increase the stress on the cable, correct? Also when the 8274-50 came out, it had 3/8" cable
If you look at the pictures here: http://www.btinternet.com/~andrew_ma...nch_system.htm

of how he has it hooked up, the snatch blocks are doubling the power of the 8274 in both front and back pulls.

According to warn and every 8274 I've seen, stock cable configuration is 150 ft of 5/16
Wire Rope: 150', 5/16" diameter (46m, 8mm diam.)
http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/M8274-50.shtml
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:18 AM   #16 (permalink)
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If you look at the pictures here: http://www.btinternet.com/~andrew_ma...nch_system.htm

of how he has it hooked up, the snatch blocks are doubling the power of the 8274 in both front and back pulls.
No, it's doubled the power when winching backwards.

Winching forward he just redirected where the cable is going.
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:29 AM   #17 (permalink)
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No, it's doubled the power when winching backwards.

Winching forward he just redirected where the cable is going.
How do you figure? In both front and back pulls, the fixed object attachment point is at a snatch block.
If you removed the line that I scribbled out in blue, you would be correct.


Edit: and after re-reading, maybe that is the way he is normally using it, I was looking at the drawing.
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:35 AM   #18 (permalink)
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If its doubling the power it of the winch the strain on the cable is the same. The only point on where there would be double the strain on the cable is post snatch block. Ie whatever it is pulling against. Basic statics, the pull on the cable is the maximum rated pull of the winch. Assuming an 8274 will put a maximum of 8000 lbf, then the 8000 lbF is applied at all points along the cable. At the snatch block the cable is essentially pulling on it twice with 8000 lbf, so the snatch block itself is pulling at 16 000 lbf towards the winch. So althought the truck is seeing 16000 lb f as is the anchor, the primary cable is only seeing 8000 lbf. If I had any skills on pc I would draw a free body diagram to illustrate, but hopefully the explanation will help...

As far as the 3/8" cable, I was sure they had that for the 50th aniversary model (the 2.5 hp) back in '97 or so. I could be wrong though, that was over 10 years ago, and my memory is fading on specs and catalogs I had read. I could easily be confusing it with the M10 000 and M12 000 line specs
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:41 AM   #19 (permalink)
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If its doubling the power it of the winch the strain on the cable is the same. The only point on where there would be double the strain on the cable is post snatch block. Ie whatever it is pulling against. Basic statics, the pull on the cable is the maximum rated pull of the winch. Assuming an 8274 will put a maximum of 8000 lbf, then the 8000 lbF is applied at all points along the cable. At the snatch block the cable is essentially pulling on it twice with 8000 lbf, so the snatch block itself is pulling at 16 000 lbf towards the winch. So althought the truck is seeing 16000 lb f as is the anchor, the primary cable is only seeing 8000 lbf. If I had any skills on pc I would draw a free body diagram to illustrate, but hopefully the explanation will help...

As far as the 3/8" cable, I was sure they had that for the 50th aniversary model (the 2.5 hp) back in '97 or so. I could be wrong though, that was over 10 years ago, and my memory is fading on specs and catalogs I had read. I could easily be confusing it with the M10 000 and M12 000 line specs
Using that logic, you could pick up a car with dental floss and enough pulleys
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:45 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Using that logic, you could pick up a car with dental floss and enough pulleys
That is correct. Physics, logic, whatever you want to call it.... Just like block and tackles on rigs. The cable can not lift a million pounds of casing with one rope, but run a 100 000 lb rated cable between the mast and blocks 10 times and you can lift the 1000 000 lb.

"Give me a long enough lever and I can move the world" comes to mind...
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:53 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
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How do you figure? In both front and back pulls, the fixed object attachment point is at a snatch block.
If you removed the line that I scribbled out in blue, you would be correct.


Edit: and after re-reading, maybe that is the way he is normally using it, I was looking at the drawing.
All of the pictures I have seen of one hooked up or in use didn't have the snatch block on the front. Just the single cable coming out.
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Old 01-20-2008, 11:07 AM   #22 (permalink)
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That is correct. Physics, logic, whatever you want to call it.... Just like block and tackles on rigs. The cable can not lift a million pounds of casing with one rope, but run a 100 000 lb rated cable between the mast and blocks 10 times and you can lift the 1000 000 lb.

"Give me a long enough lever and I can move the world" comes to mind...

OK - I get it now, had to go back to my kids physics book t understand what you are saying In absense of friction at the pulleys a cable with x breaking strength should support x2 weight using a snatch block. And even with friction, that maybe you derate 15% or so to keep from snapping it.

Thanks
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:48 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Yep, we are on the same page now. I suspect the guy destroying cables was more due to angles and binding then ultimate load.
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Old 01-20-2008, 04:53 PM   #24 (permalink)
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so where do I get those mini roller fairleads?
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Old 01-20-2008, 05:29 PM   #25 (permalink)
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so where do I get those mini roller fairleads?
ATV winches:
http://www.gowarn.com/atv-roller-fairlead.asp
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