Okay, how about a coil-over vs double-shackle leaves debate?

[Drew Persson]

Let's have it! Pros and cons.
<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[Lance]

umm, I think a better debate would be 1/4 elliptic vs. coilover.

I like um both. But 1/4 is cheaper. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

[YellowCJ]

Are 1/4's streetable? Not on a daily driver, but just an occasional pavement trip?

[Lance]

Originally posted by YellowCJ:
<STRONG>Are 1/4's streetable? Not on a daily driver, but just an occasional pavement trip?</STRONG>

Why wouldn't it be? If properly engineered, 1/4 can fully get it. I drive mine on the street.

[Drew Persson]

Some of the AZ boys run (or used to anyhow) the double-shackle, from the looks of the buggies I don't think it was because they couldn't afford coilovers.
<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[Adam Ant]

I took My 1/4 elip Wrangler throught the 80 Canyon to fordyce at 75 80 No problem's
the People that talk Bad about the 1/4 elip are the one's that don't Know,,, or just Have Not wheeled In one You need bumpstop's and Limiting strap's Properly engineered it can be Matched to some coilover system's I loved Mine !!!!! and going to put it on another Project!!!!

What's A little Body roll Ya Puss!!!! <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">


Adam,

[Moab Austin]

I would like to here a "PRO" about double shackle I'd like to hear it, cause I think they suck hairy goat nuts!

[Aceguy]

Originally posted by Moab Austin:
<STRONG>I would like to here a "PRO" about double shackle I'd like to hear it, cause I think they suck hairy goat nuts!</STRONG>

LOL. He said hairy goat nuts. <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> Anyway, I run double shackles for a reason. I watch too many people breaking shit on their 1/4 eliptical setups. Double shackles can't kick out sideways while they are extended(I've seen 1/4 setups do this on two different occasions on the trail). When the double shackle is closed it sits nice and tight locked against the frame for much less body roll. Double shackle is just simpler. No limiting straps. No holes drilled in spring steel or clamps on your frame. Simpler means less breakage/less problems. I can't really speak for how they relate to hairy goat nuts, but I really like mine. They are dependable, they can take a hit and keep working, and they do their job awsome.

[Adam Ant]

Originally posted by Moab Austin:
<STRONG>I would like to Lic hairy goat nuts!</STRONG>

I think this is what He said ??????? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

[NECKSTER]

Originally posted by Aceguy:
<STRONG>They are dependable, they can take a hit and keep working, and they do their job awsome.</STRONG>

You are right, they do their job awesome. Too bad their job will never be anywhere near a 1/4 elliptic setup.

[ROKTOY]

I think you mean a shackle at end end, right Drew?

This is one way to do a nice, unrestricted four-link without dealing with new coil mounts or expensive coilovers. The shackle mounts are usually already there for you and you just add the four-link to control axle movement. It is a relatively heavy setup though.

A lot of the buggy guys around here have started using 1/4 elliptics (harder to design and get right) or some coilovers (more $$$).

Jay

[DRM]

Guys - I am pretty sire he is talking (like Jay said) about springs with a single shackle at each end.

Pro's?

-you can use bolt on springs
-tons of travel
-controlled droop

1/4 elip. has the advantage of being able to move the axle to the very end of the vehicle for ZERO departure angle.

One could also argue that since both require a 3 or 4 link, why not go ahead and get the departire angle of the 1/4 elip. since you are most of the way there.

[Drew Persson]

Ooops, sorry, I do mean a shackle at each end of the spring and some kind of link system to locate the axle front-to-back. (I'm not a big fan of buggy leaves or missing-link type 3/4 elliptical setups)

If shackles were made that didn't allow lateral drift (more like hinges at each end instead of two plate shackles), wouldn't only two links be needed to locate the axle forward/back?

[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Drew Persson ]

[tsm1mt]

Originally posted by Moab Austin:
<STRONG>I would like to here a "PRO" about double shackle I'd like to hear it, cause I think they suck hairy goat nuts!</STRONG>

I was thinking a double shackle (one per end) or a floating axle mount would make designing your 4-link that much simpler.

Keep the leaf springs for lateral location while using the 4-link for fore/aft and axle-wrap.

Heck, you could probably get away with old-school ladder bars or a Ford style radius arm setup.

You would also maintain "stock-type" suspension if you're into competitions that require that. I couldn't coil-over my Scout II without changes classes.


Double shackle is also CHEAP and at least you could be dealing with a "known quantity" - you could use your existing leaf springs. You know how they flex, how they behave, and how your rig sits on 'em.

Heavier than quarter eliptical tho'.. OTOH, 1/4 elip is generally heavier than coil-overs, too.

Coil-overs have the added advantage of making your wallet a lot lighter, too!

[NE-RokToy]

Double shackle pro's: cheap, can use existing parts, cheap to tune spring rate

Double shackle con's: Heavy, less ground clearance then other link type suspensions, lower departure angle

Coilover pro's: Lightweight, easy to change spring rate, cheap to change effective spring rate(change angle of mount) Great ground clearance, posible 90* departure angle

Coilover Con's: Co$t, mounting location, dificult to trail fix

[tsm1mt]

Originally posted by SquirrelMaster:
<STRONG>
Coilover Con's: Co$t, mounting location, dificult to trail fix</STRONG>

That was another thought I had on the double-shackle approach.

If you rip out your link mounts there's an easy get-home fix.

Remove the links, flip one shackle against the frame and U-bolt it.

As long as you have enough slip in the driveshaft, you can limp-home with an old fashioned semi-eliptical leaf setup. You may have to deal with axle-wrap again, less travel, etc.. but you won't have to deal with leaving it on the trail.

-Tom

[randii]

Lance said:
I drive mine on the street.
Bwahahahaha...

Quantify your terms, please... I haven't seen you using your Crooooozer as a commuter car... seems like I see you tooling around in the Pirate 4x4 Saturn. :P

When's the last time you drove your rig to the Hammers?

Let's define our terms... streetable. What'z that?
* Street Legal -- that's easily quantifiable, but that leaves out folks with beadlocks, without mudflaps, etc.)
* Street Safe - nah -- because everyone has their own comfort level -- I've seen 4x4's heeling over to 45 degrees on the way up Icehouse Road, tires chirping madly from the dual-spooled full width axles and balloon tires that are rolling pebbles off the shoulder even as they overlap the yellow line in the middle of the road.
* Something you'd trust a stranger to drive - depends on the stranger, of course... but this one makes good sense to me. If you can't just toss the keys to a stranger, without five minutes of explanation (don't worry about the chirping tires, the strange clacking from the axles, or the blinking red light on the dash -- and BTW, in order to start it, you have to pump the gas three times while rocking from side to side and flapping your arms like a chicken)
* insert your own term - insert your own explanation

As to coil-over vs. linkage-n-leaves -- I think you can build either as flexy as you want, with whatever characteristics you want -- the biggest true difference is that coil-sprung trucks will always lack the leaf-to-leaf friction of a leaf-sprung suspension, and the dampening that this provides. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing sorta depends on the application....

Randii

[FatCity]

First-off, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Coil-overs cost more but can be tuned to do anything you want

Dual shackles cost less and can also be tuned to do what you want, by switching BIG heavy springs for different BIG heavy springs


I've Built dozens with all these different suspensions that you've talked about, and they all have different handling charicteristics, pro's and con's

How about we compare summer to winter instead!!

eric@fatcity <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0">

[NE-RokToy]

Originally posted by FatCity:
<STRONG>How about we compare summer to winter instead!!

eric@fatcity <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

HAHAHAA thats a ood one <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

[FatCity]

Originally posted by Moab Austin:
<STRONG>I would like to here a "PRO" about double shackle I'd like to hear it, cause I think they suck hairy goat nuts!</STRONG>

Moab,

I'd like to here an actuall reason for you're comment.

Anybody can say somthing licks BALLBAG, but it takes someone who knows somthing to say why it licks BALLBAG

DO YOU KNOW SOMETHING????? <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
eric@fatcity

[Adam Ant]

Originally posted by Moab Austin:
<STRONG>I would like to suck hairy goat nuts!</STRONG>

Hey Eric this Is What He said !!!!!!!!!!! hehehehehehehehehehehhehehhehehe <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

[Moab Austin]

ok, instead of MY opinion, I'll give you the reason why I have an opinion!!?...

all front end...
Why build a link system and use LEAFS???

This is pointless I think
you go through all the trouble to build a sweet link system (I'm gonna assume it would be sweet) then take away the COILS???
Now I'm not a big coil fan, but they make some great ones, that are multi adjustable in about every way!

OK so you decide on duel shackle leafs.
you build a link system to control axle movement and get the correct geometry for everything Blah Blah Blah,...(you can make a lateral link or not)

COMPRESSION: so you angle the shackles so the shakles can travel when the springs compress. well both shackles cannot travel at the same time because of the links (i.e. the rear shackle cannot go back (after a point) because the links will not let the axle,springs move that way.
Lets say the shackles are what say 5 inches. How much spring is it gonna take to use all that upx2?? I think not!
DROOP: so when the spring drops and the shackles go toward each other, we know that the rear (or link side shackle) will also not move veryfar because of the link not letting the axle walk forward. so when you droop all the way there is really no spring force on that wheel just axle&tire weight.
so the front shackle allows most of the droop movement? why have two? and why build links? Also the flatter the spring, the sooner it will negative arch, because duels will move outward to a point then have to change direction when the spring starts to negative arch, puting stress on the link side shakle and the links. and who uses high arched springs anymore for rockcrawling?

Those are alot of forces working against each other for no gain!
I have seen a normal leaf setup flex to the moon, rti of way to much (like 1700) ride great and stay well balanced and noway you'r gonna be scratching your head engineering them.
Now as for all the engineers who can handle the engineering I have to ask you this,

How come I have seen ALOT of badass rigs between Moab and all the ARCA's and I personally have never seen any real engineered rigs run duel shakles.

They are nowhere to be found.
not at avalanche, not at randy's not by steve, not any moab locals, not clamores, not sams....blah blah blah.

I'm not nocking any of your rigs, cause I've seen as bad of rigs here as I've seen anywhere. But the only duel shackle shit I've seen just sucks, and I've seen variety too.

so lets here some input!

[Flatty]

Just go 1/4 ellip. I drove mine on the street and loved it. It wzas like driving a Caddy down the streets of Truckee. Got up to about 50 mph and loved it. I hvae no bumpstops or straps. It goes where it wants to go, and I let the 4 link handle all the locating of the axle. It works very well, and I have no complaints. I am even thinking about doing a similar setup up front if I keep the rig.

Dimitri

[tsm1mt]

Originally posted by Moab Austin:
<STRONG>ok, instead of MY opinion, I'll give you the reason why I have an opinion!!?...

all front end...
Why build a link system and use LEAFS???
</STRONG>

'Cuz you blew your wad on the 60s and the links and can't afford the coil-overs you really want. Just the res shocks are $250 per corner. IIRC a good coil-over setup is around $1k per corner.

$4k in coil-overs, or $4k for a Front 60 & rear 60, new tires and a pair of Detroits.

<STRONG>
COMPRESSION: so you angle the shackles so the shakles can travel when the springs compress. well both shackles cannot travel at the same time because of the links (i.e. the rear shackle cannot go back (after a point) because the links will not let the axle,springs move that way.
</STRONG>

Right, but both shackles WILL move ALL the time. With a link setup your axle travels in an arc. That moves the center pin of the spring fore/aft as it travels. On top of that, you have spring compression/droop which changes the length of the spring which changes where the shackles are.

<STRONG>
Lets say the shackles are what say 5 inches. How much spring is it gonna take to use all that upx2?? I think not!
</STRONG>

Who says you have to use all of the shackle swing?

<STRONG>
DROOP: so when the spring drops and the shackles go toward each other, we know that the rear (or link side shackle) will also not move veryfar because of the link not letting the axle walk forward. so when you droop all the way there is really no spring force on that wheel just axle&tire weight.

</STRONG>

Eventually all you have is the tire/wheel weight dangling in the air, pulling that side of the rig down.

<STRONG>
so the front shackle allows most of the droop movement? why have two? and why build links?

</STRONG>

Links so you avoid the axle-wrap you get with soft leaf sprung suspensions and V8s!

I've broken two spring packs on one of my Scouts (rear) and broke all 4 packs in my other Scout from spring-wrap. The rig that broke all 4 scored 950@25deg with 40" of tire-pick. All that flex doesn't like it when I smash the skinny pedal.

<STRONG>
who uses high arched springs anymore for rockcrawling?
</STRONG>

I'm thinking of going back to an arched spring. A nice (relatively cheap) aftermarket lift spring, but with a tension-style shackle setup to take the "lift" out of it. Same wheel travel as my flat springs, but without "going negative" they might last more than a year. The newer lift springs are plenty soft and flexy, too.

My other option is to spend the bucks on custom springs that don't mind going negative.

<STRONG>
I have seen a normal leaf setup flex to the moon, rti of way to much (like 1700) ride great and stay well balanced and noway you'r gonna be scratching your head engineering them.
</STRONG>

Does that rig have 400 ponies under the hood? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

<STRONG>
How come I have seen ALOT of badass rigs between Moab and all the ARCA's and I personally have never seen any real engineered rigs run duel shakles.

They are nowhere to be found.
not at avalanche, not at randy's not by steve, not any moab locals, not clamores, not sams....blah blah blah.
</STRONG>

Because the guys that drive their rigs into those shops leave behind their VISA Platinum and don't want to see their rig until the card's maxed out. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

If money were no object.. gimme coil-overs!!

In the meantime, I'd like a solution that won't require a jumbo jar of Vaseline and will keep me from breaking leaf springs.

[Moab Austin]

'Cuz you blew your wad on the 60s and the links and can't afford the coil-overs you really want. Just the res shocks are $250 per corner. IIRC a good coil-over setup is around $1k per corner.

$4k in coil-overs, or $4k for a Front 60 & rear 60, new tires and a pair of Detroits.

NOPE ILL HAVE ABOUT 9500-10K ON MY DONE RIG, I HAVE NEVER WANTED COILOVERS, COME WHEEL WITH ME!

Right, but both shackles WILL move ALL the time. With a link setup your axle travels in an arc. That moves the center pin of the spring fore/aft as it travels. On top of that, you have spring compression/droop which changes the length of the spring which changes where the shackles are.

SURE BUT A NORMAL SETUP WILL DO THIS TO! AND YOU CAN CONTROL WHICH WAY WITH SHACKLE REVERSAL OR WITHOUT!

Who says you have to use all of the shackle swing?

AND YOU DON'T NEED TO, THATS MY POINT!

Does that rig have 400 ponies under the hood?

I DON'T KNOW BUT GEARS WILL BREAK STUFF TO.
AND I DIDN'T MEAN SLIGHTLY ARCHED, MINE WILL BE 2.5 INCHERS, I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT ARCHED LIKE THIS: U
BUT MY BUDDIES OLD JEEP HAD 380 - 400 HORSE AND HE DID BREAK LEAFS - ABOUT A PACK A YEAR,SO YES I'M PLANNING TO BREAK EM, BUT NOT OFTEN ENOUGH TO MATTER.

Because the guys that drive their rigs into those shops leave behind their VISA Platinum and don't want to see their rig until the card's maxed out.

If money were no object.. gimme coil-overs!!

In the meantime, I'd like a solution that won't require a jumbo jar of Vaseline and will keep me from breaking leaf springs.

SO YOU THINK THESE GUYS DON'T BUILD THERE OWN RIGS?
I LIKE YOUR LAST STATEMENT, SOUNDS LIKE YOU WANT SOMTHING SIMPLE! LIKE A CONVENTIONAL SPRING SETUP AND A DECENT TRACTION BAR,
SIMPLE, CHEAP, EFFECTIVE.

BTW I'M NOT YELLING, JUST TRYING TO SEPERATE THE CONVERSATIONS.
Also I would never build any link setup, unless I could get it as good as I guesstimate RAMSTIENS to be or some of the others that I have personally driven. And only with COILS-COILS-COILS none of this Goat balls suckin duel crap

[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Moab Austin ]