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Old 04-16-2008, 06:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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2 in...2 out...cutter brake problems..little help here please

So I have had some trouble with my 2in 2out CNC cutter brake...heres the story any help or advice you guys can give would be great.
system specs

4 wheel disc brake system
1980 Corvette Front calipers
1994 Chevy 1 ton hydro boost and master cyl
2 in 2 out CNC cutter brake


I so bleed the front and it seems to work fine..the cutter brake works, it locks the front and so does the foot brakes...but when I bleed the rear brakes I get tons of clean, clear, no bubble brake fluid....and the pedal feels ok..but when I use the rear cutter brake it feels like air is in the system and the cutter wont stop the buggy at all (I can spin the rotors by hand)..basically it feels like it does not even work.....BUT when I apply the foot brake I can even budge the rotors when I use my 3ft pry bar to try and spin it...

so do I have a bad master cyl?
air in the lines?
air in the cutter brake?
faulty cutter brake??
lines sucking air?

I called CNC and they gave me some bleeding instructions and I followed them to a tee...but they still don't work for shit.


anybody else have this issue with there cutter brake?
I searched but could not seem to find much info on cutter brakes

Thanks for any help or info or advice
I even bought a vacuum bleeder and it still does not work any better
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Last edited by mark.bales; 04-16-2008 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:13 PM   #2 (permalink)
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bleed it again and one more time
then right after that bleed it again
and then use the vac bleeder and do that 2 times
right b4 you clean your mess up do it all over again
ok that should do it !!
i went through close to a gallon of brake fluid b4 i
got all the air out WITH a vac bleeder
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:27 PM   #3 (permalink)
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yeah 2nd that. they are a bugger.
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Old 04-16-2008, 08:01 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toywelder View Post
bleed it again and one more time
then right after that bleed it again
and then use the vac bleeder and do that 2 times
right b4 you clean your mess up do it all over again
ok that should do it !!
i went through close to a gallon of brake fluid b4 i
got all the air out WITH a vac bleeder
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Originally Posted by DOUG38S View Post
yeah 2nd that. they are a bugger.


Ok I will try some more..I have been using a vacuum bleeder(hand pump)
then I went and bought a HF shop air bleeder and it still did not work......I guess I better do it like 12X more and maybe the cutter brake handle will start to build pressure???

Any body else have any crazy secrets????
thanks guys
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Last edited by mark.bales; 04-16-2008 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 04-16-2008, 09:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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i pump the foot pedal once to build up some extra pressure in the cutting brake setup then pull or push the lever to lock the front or rear. works every time and i barely have to pull on the lever to get the 42's to lock up
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
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We do them with the vac. and while that is going we slowly pump the foot pedal and the cutting brake handle (full motion). Once we are finished (about 3 go arounds on each brake), then we bleed with just the foot twice, then pump up with the foot and hold the cutting brake and bleed (twice as well). Then we are usually done. Yep, it's a pain. But pumping the pedal and the cutter while vaccing seems to speed things up a bit.
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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i pump the foot pedal once to build up some extra pressure in the cutting brake setup then pull or push the lever to lock the front or rear. works every time and i barely have to pull on the lever to get the 42's to lock up
are you saying now that your system is bleed that how you lock it up?? or are you saying thats how you bleed your cutter brake?
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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We do them with the vac. and while that is going we slowly pump the foot pedal and the cutting brake handle (full motion). Once we are finished (about 3 go arounds on each brake), then we bleed with just the foot twice, then pump up with the foot and hold the cutting brake and bleed (twice as well). Then we are usually done. Yep, it's a pain. But pumping the pedal and the cutter while vaccing seems to speed things up a bit.
alright I will try some more in the morning..
thanks for the help
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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are you saying now that your system is bleed that how you lock it up?? or are you saying thats how you bleed your cutter brake?

thats how i lock it up, all in one motion kinda, just pump once then throw the stick
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:21 AM   #10 (permalink)
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thats how i lock it up, all in one motion kinda, just pump once then throw the stick
I do the same thing, it would be nice to just be able to pull the lever without hitting the brake first though.
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:27 AM   #11 (permalink)
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If the cylinder is bad you will eather see fluid comming from the boot or you will feel it bypassing and pushing the fluid back towards the foot pedal master cylinder.

I have a bad side on my 2-in 2-out. Don't bother calling polly because they don't have and clame to never have had a rebuild kit for them. I am going to have to try and match a o-ring up localy and see if I can get it to seal.
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:06 AM   #12 (permalink)
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You have air in the cutting brake cylinder and there is a technique to bleed it. Use advanced search, search term is "bleeding cutting brakes" and enter my screenname in the search under field. I wrote out a process that works to actually bleed the cutting cylinder
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:28 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Yeah, we have a pressure bleeder at the shop that we use also. They seem to work really well. But to me it's all about the same and the vac bleeder is less stress when bleeding the brakes on a rig with fresh paint. If is a rig that be beat on and the owner doesn't mind, then the pressure bleeder gets used. I know that if you wipe off brake fluid right away it doesn't hurt anything, but I don't like taking the chance when, for example, the paint on this last rig was $600 a gallon.
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Old 04-17-2008, 02:48 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm losing HOPE!!! I have been bleeding all DAY and this bitch feels the same as when I started this morning at 8:00
I have tried every thing!! vac bleeder just sucks my pistons to the calipers and never will stream clean unbubbled fluid...I am about ready to pull this FAWKING cutter brake OFF!
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Old 04-17-2008, 02:50 PM   #15 (permalink)
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yeah I even shotgunned a new master at it and it the same story....front works with basically NO bleeding...the back cutter has nothing!!!
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:16 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Did you follow the procedure I posted??? Vacuum/pressure bleeders OFTEN do not work with cutting brakes and there is a proper method.

Next, did you dry stroke your cutting brakes? if so, you may have scored your cylinder.

Finally, you may have a loose or unsealed line somewhere along the way...go back and re-check all of the fittings...but again, I'm betting you still have air trapped in the cutter. Use SPEED when bleeding to shake bubbles loose.

Good luck!
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:53 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Did you follow the procedure I posted??? Vacuum/pressure bleeders OFTEN do not work with cutting brakes and there is a proper method.

Next, did you dry stroke your cutting brakes? if so, you may have scored your cylinder.

Finally, you may have a loose or unsealed line somewhere along the way...go back and re-check all of the fittings...but again, I'm betting you still have air trapped in the cutter. Use SPEED when bleeding to shake bubbles loose.

Good luck!
yes dustin I tried your method as well and every combo in between...I dont know what to think...I have bleed 4, 32 oz bottles of fluid out of the system.




my cab is so small that I had to check the stroke of the cutter before I mounted it...so yes I dry stroked it....but it always felt smooth for what that worth.


anybody have a pic of the loc tight they used for the fittings?? maybe I used the wrong stuff??

this sucks you know!! obliviously these cutter brakes are a pain to bleed....but at what point do you say ok the cutter brake is bad???(out of the package) how many bottles of fluid do I pour in before I junk this damn thing!!

thanks for the help so far gents...but now it will have to wait till next week cause tomorrow is my Monday
I feel like my whole 3 days off this week was wasted on bleeding brakes!!! and they still don't work



FAWK THIS THING!!!
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Old 04-17-2008, 04:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I been using this thing and a hand pump...any body had luck with this style vac??
we have a pressure bleeder at work I might try out next???
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Old 04-18-2008, 06:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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i've had good luck hitting everything that has fittings with a hammer during the bleeding. it helps free the bubbles.
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:08 AM   #20 (permalink)
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When I bled a CNC unit for independent rear brakes and had problems I pumped the fluid in through the caliper nipples with a small peristaltic pump that I 'found' ( a laboratory pump, but there must be another way to pump the fluid in under a small amount of pressure ) and sucked the excess out of the master cylinder with a bicycle pump!

Desperate, but it worked.
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:01 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I have a 2 in two out on mine

when I go to use the cutting brake though I always have to lightly pump the brake pedal once then hit the cutter to lock them up

if I don't hit the pedal once then it won't totally lock them up

I just figgered that it did that b/c of the size of the cylinder in the cutting brake wasn't big enough to do the brakes by itself
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:28 AM   #22 (permalink)
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my cab is so small that I had to check the stroke of the cutter before I mounted it...so yes I dry stroked it....but it always felt smooth for what that worth.
It only takes once to kill the cylinder. It took us a number of master cylinders and cutting brakes to figure that out back in the day. They still feel fine, but they sure dont work fine.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:45 PM   #23 (permalink)
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My question is, does it work (hold pressure) if you pump the foot pedal first?

This doesn't mean push the foot pedal down, then release it, then pull the cutting brake. THAT AIN'T GONNA WORK

Pump the pedal and while holding the pedal down pull the cutting brake. While pulling the cutting brake handle tight release your foot pedal. The cutting brake should hold pressure.

Is this what you are doing?
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:58 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Is it the norm to have to pump the brake pedal before grabbing the cutter handle? I was considering running a cutting brake as well as a pair of line locks, but if I have to hit the brake pedal before I grab the handle anyways, I might as well just hit a switch and have one less lever and less plumbing to worry about.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:59 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Is it the norm to have to pump the brake pedal before grabbing the cutter handle? I was considering running a cutting brake as well as a pair of line locks, but if I have to hit the brake pedal before I grab the handle anyways, I might as well just hit a switch and have one less lever and less plumbing to worry about.
Not really pump, just apply hard, then pull the cutting brake. You can pull the cutter with hitting the footbrake first but it'll just drag a little, not really lock the tires up. Which, depending on the situation and type of surface that you are crawling on, might be all you need.
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