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Old 10-22-2001, 12:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Post Update of homemade welder(pics, part #s, prices)

For those who were interested, here is the "final" info about the homemade onboard welder using an alternator.

First, I'll run through a parts list/price list of what I used then I'll show a couple of pictures.

<ul>[*] Large case Ford Alternator $19.62 at Pick-n-Pull. $4.00 of it was using their exchange policy. There was a $5.00 core charge that is not reflected.[*] Mounting brackets $0.00. I had a bunch of scrap metal around so I had no cost associated with this. If I would have bought it, it would have totalled under $5.00.[*] fan belt $37.00 at NAPA. As you will see in the pictures, I am running a serpentine belt system... thus, it is a big chunck of change <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0">[*] lighted switch to alt $0.00. I had it at home already. Worst case is $5.00.[*] small wire to field pole on alt $0.00. I have a TON of wire at home. Worst case is $5.00.[*] 30amp fuse holder. I had it at home already. Worst case is $5.00.[*] 200 amp stringer. Tweeko TW9110-1101. $31.91 at Central Welder's. I could have used a cheap $10.00 from Harbor Freight, but I've used their cheap stringer before and it sucks.[*] 2 Female plugs. Miller MIL 057608(yellow) MIL 039800(Red) $7.20 each at Central Welder's. These are the large colored plugs you will see in the panel below.[*] 2 Male plugs. Miller MIL 039878(yellow) MIL 039608(red) $11.34 each at Central Welder's. These are the male plugs on the "welding" cables.[*] 16 foot 4 guage booster cables. 782-5253 $28.09 at NAPA. These are the "welding" cables.[/list]
As you can see, I am into it for right around $150. It could have been made for MUCH cheaper if you didn't use the fancy plugs and quality stringer... probably as low as $50 if you bought new battery cables.

The wiring is VERY simple. Simply use a +12 volt wire to supply power to the field connector when you want to weld. The lug that would goto the battery is your +voltage for the welding cable. And a ground is provided by the alternator case.

Here are a couple of pictures:



These first two show the Ford alternator mounted in the gap on the Chevy 5.0L TBI engine.

<IMG width=519 height=242 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lj_panel1.jpg">
<IMG width=378 height=280 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lj_panel2.jpg">These next two pictures show the panel that has the switch and two welding plugs on it. The red one is my +voltage and the yellow is the ground(only did yellow because they didn't have a matched set of black in stock)

<IMG width=317 height=343 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lj_ground.jpg">
<IMG width=292 height=253 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lj_plugs.jpg">
These last two show the end of my welding cable with the stringer, ground clamp, and two plugs.

I haven't officially tested it out yet because I am still playing with the upper radiator hose as well as wiring the welding alternator to the plugs. Should be able to test it out by this weekend... when I do, I'll post some weld pictures.

Hope this helps someone else.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Lil'John ]
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Old 10-22-2001, 01:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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WOW!!!!
good info dude.

i'll be looking for the test picks.
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Old 10-22-2001, 01:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Can't wait to see you burn some rod with that thing. Post an update with live action shots. Also where in CA is Central Welding?

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Old 10-22-2001, 02:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Central Welder's Supply has three locations in Northern CA:
<ul>[*]One in Gilroy(the guys there don't seem to know their head from a hole in the way <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0"> )[*]One in Salinas(haven't been to this one yet)[*]One in Watsonville(this is where I got most of my stuff from.... this is also where they do the companies welding machine repairs... VERY good crew when I was there)[/list]
I should have the thing fired up by this weekend <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> I'm now waiting to get two radiator hoses <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0"> I'll post some pics on how well it does. Hopefully it will work well enough for me to do some running boards for my Taco.... the super low duty cycle of the Century portable welder hurts(10-15 minutes of welding to 8 hours of charging <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> )
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Old 10-22-2001, 07:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Ok can you post pix or diagrams of the wiring? Looks like the alt runs full time to the switch but stops there. Then you turn the switch to "on" and it is then hot? I am assuming the yellow runs to the alt casing/motorblock. If thats the case it seems easy enough. like a 2bannana project.
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Old 10-22-2001, 08:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Just make it stop Skyetone:
<STRONG>Ok can you post pix or diagrams of the wiring? Looks like the alt runs full time to the switch but stops there. Then you turn the switch to "on" and it is then hot? I am assuming the yellow runs to the alt casing/motorblock. If thats the case it seems easy enough. like a 2bannana project.</STRONG>
Ask and ye shall recieve <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> (I'd show my wiring directly but I'm still not QUITE done with it... I haven't wired the alt to the plugs.)
<IMG width=491 height=449 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lj_weld_wire1.jpg">

I copied this diagram and hacked it a little from another web site. So, the 1 pin it shows on the alt with +12 coming to is actually the field plug on the Ford alternator. Also, in my case, I used 10 guage wire instead of 16:-)

Also, from the alt to the plug in pannel on mine, I am actually using 2/0 guage wire <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> But from the panel out, it is only 4 guage <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0"> In the future, when I want the 50 feet of stringer, I'm ready <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

And yes, you are correct, the yellow plug is actually the ground to the alt case <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

And yes, once the switch lets +12 to the field connector on the alt, it is hot and ready to make sparks.

I actually rate this as a 1.5 banana job... the hardest part of the whole thing is finding the right alt and mounting. The wiring is easy and the "beautification" shit I did was just to make it look good <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">
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Old 10-22-2001, 09:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Just curious but has anyone seen the tech article on this? ???
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Old 10-22-2001, 09:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
<STRONG>Just curious but has anyone seen the tech article on this? ???</STRONG>
Yup have read on more than one occasion. Wife wonders why I drag the computer into the throne with me.

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Old 10-22-2001, 09:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lil'John:
<STRONG>Central Welder's Supply has three locations in Northern CA:
<ul>[*]One in Gilroy(the guys there don't seem to know their head from a hole in the way <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0"> )[*]One in Salinas(haven't been to this one yet)[*]One in Watsonville(this is where I got most of my stuff from.... this is also where they do the companies welding machine repairs... VERY good crew when I was there)[/list]</STRONG>
Thanks was wondering if there was one close to the east bay where I am at.

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Old 10-22-2001, 09:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
<STRONG>Just curious but has anyone seen the tech article on this? ???</STRONG>
Yep... unfortunately, in this one case, it is sort of like a sports box score: Gives you final result but not all the details <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0"> OTOH, I found two other web sites that went into onboard welders: One gave a LOT of details with a wiring diagram but was for converting a GM one. The other gave a little more information than Jeff's but also didn't give a "wiring diagram" or part #'s. No big deal on this project as I didn't find it too hard to do other than "where do I hook the switched +12 to on the alternator" that wasn't covered in Jeff's <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0"> All three sites DID give some good information.

I asked a few questions about 5-6 days ago about onboard welders to clarify some of Jeff's information and expand upon it. Since I got some good answers and a few "interested people", I thought I'd post it with a little more details(Part #'s and costs specifically).
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Old 10-22-2001, 09:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
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They do weld. I have the 90A Ford large case alternator. It will run any 3/32 DC rod. I know, I need to practice more, but I had a pot of coffee and a 1/4 inch weave at the end of the rod. The upper bead is 6011 and the lower 7014.



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Old 10-22-2001, 09:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Looks good you even have a York squeezed in there. <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> You got me thinking about doing a similar set-up on mine if I can make room. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
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Old 10-23-2001, 06:31 AM   #13 (permalink)
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very informative post, If I wasn't so lazy I'd add it to the tech section <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
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Old 10-23-2001, 06:52 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
<STRONG>very informative post, If I wasn't so lazy I'd add it to the tech section <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

It would be cool if posts like this stuck around for a bit longer than the meetings, trail rides, and questions, IMHO. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
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Old 10-23-2001, 07:14 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Nice pics, and thanks for the info. This is a mod I woul like to do, if I can ever finish my current project. How hard would it be to include a amp-meter and an adjustable throttle-cable to contol engine idle (and therefore amperage) with?
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Old 10-23-2001, 07:45 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
<STRONG>very informative post, If I wasn't so lazy I'd add it to the tech section <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"></STRONG>
If you'd like, I can clean it up and make it 90% ready for the tech section <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
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Old 10-23-2001, 07:51 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pillard:
<STRONG>Nice pics, and thanks for the info. This is a mod I woul like to do, if I can ever finish my current project.
</STRONG>
Hahahha... I know the feeling. My "justification" for this project was: "I need to buy a longer $40 serpentine belt, might as well add a welder while I'm at it" <IMG SRC="smilies/eyemouth.gif" border="0">

Quote:
Originally posted by Pillard:
<STRONG> How hard would it be to include a amp-meter and an adjustable throttle-cable to contol engine idle (and therefore amperage) with?</STRONG>
Once you get finished mounting the alternator, these would be half a banana jobs <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

The hand throttle-cable would be a 1 hour job. The tough part would be mounting the cable on the carb. The rest of it would be routing the cable, drilling hole, and mounting the knob/lever.

The amp-meter is also not a biggy. I think the toughest part would be finding one that goes up to 150+ amp that is sealed. From there, you would mount it in-line with the positive stringer. Again, another 1 hour job.

I'm looking at doing a volt meter but may also do the amp meter on mine... just no money to get "THAT" fancy <IMG SRC="smilies/clown.gif" border="0">
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Old 10-23-2001, 08:57 PM   #18 (permalink)
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so the alt isn't hot all the time. You have to switch it to hot? I thought they had power going out but when the belt turned it made power. I didn't think you'd need power in I guess I am saying. Thanx alot. PLEASE make it ready for tech page. I would love it. I think I will save the info though.
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Old 10-23-2001, 09:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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WTF is a stringer?

and those pictures of weld beads several posts above.. will those hold?

its a good idea, Id like to see it work.
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Old 10-23-2001, 09:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
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the stinger is the clamp that holds the welding rod
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Old 10-23-2001, 10:25 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Just make it stop Skyetone:
<STRONG>so the alt isn't hot all the time. You have to switch it to hot? I thought they had power going out but when the belt turned it made power. I didn't think you'd need power in I guess I am saying. Thanx alot. PLEASE make it ready for tech page. I would love it. I think I will save the info though.</STRONG>
The alt is not producing power until you excite it <IMG SRC="smilies/eyemouth.gif" border="0"> Not with dirty words but with power to the field.

If the folks here would host it, I'll take the time to do a quality write up with some better pictures of everything I used(plugs, finished picture of the wiring, etc). Brandon? Lance?

Quote:
Originally posted by ozarkjeep:
<STRONG>
and those pictures of weld beads several posts above.. will those hold?
</STRONG>
Bear in mind that most of the homebrew onboard welders are 100 amps or less. In the past, I've used a small 100 amp arc welder with good sucess(motor swap, PS swap, etc)

Using the correct rod is VERY important... there is an unbelievable number of types and sizes- I found 4 common types at the autoparts store alone <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> For my upcoming test, I'm going to use 3 different rods: 6011 in 1/8" and 3/32" and a 6013 in 1/8".

Prep is also fairly important... clean metal will weld together better than greasy/rusty stuff <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> I don't believe the homebrew welder will do 1/4" in a single pass... but then again, I haven't tested it out yet so I can't say this with 100% certainty <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

I will do my testing as soon as I get a radiator hose(on order). I'll lay a couple of beads like the picture above. I'll also do a quick mock up with some 1/8" tubing I have and some 1/4" plate I have <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
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Old 10-23-2001, 10:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Last year I used this same idea to make a little welder out of a Briggs and Straton lawn mower engine and a Ford alternator. It worked fine, it was kind of a strain on the Briggs & Stratton engine but it welded OK, but it is now derelict because the little lawn mower engine was really old and something inside it broke and metal shavings mixed with oil started spraying out the exhaust. Maybe I'll take the alternator off and use it for a welder in my car now, I never even thought of doin that! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Anyway, I know you guys don't wanna hear this but this on-board welder is prolly a temporary thing at best... Be warned that running the voltage directly to the field is gonna burn out the diode bridge in the alternator much sooner than it would burn out just using it as an alternator, I would say that it is not going to last very long. I guess it doesn't matter though if it is only for emergency trail repairs, but I'm telling ya that if you use this much it will burn your diodes one at a time until when they are all gone, the alternator will no longer work.
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Old 10-24-2001, 07:22 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nukeiridium:
<STRONG>Last year I used this same idea to make a little welder out of a Briggs and Straton lawn mower engine and a Ford alternator. It worked fine, it was kind of a strain on the Briggs & Stratton engine but it welded OK, but it is now derelict because the little lawn mower engine was really old and something inside it broke and metal shavings mixed with oil started spraying out the exhaust. Maybe I'll take the alternator off and use it for a welder in my car now, I never even thought of doin that! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Anyway, I know you guys don't wanna hear this but this on-board welder is prolly a temporary thing at best... Be warned that running the voltage directly to the field is gonna burn out the diode bridge in the alternator much sooner than it would burn out just using it as an alternator, I would say that it is not going to last very long. I guess it doesn't matter though if it is only for emergency trail repairs, but I'm telling ya that if you use this much it will burn your diodes one at a time until when they are all gone, the alternator will no longer work.</STRONG>
right on man thats one of the issues that i have only seen addressed with 1 of the users here. why would you really want the diodes? you can weld AC thats what an alt would produce without the diodes. i never understood the DC stuff because of this issue.
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Old 10-24-2001, 08:32 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
why would you really want the diodes? you can weld AC thats what an alt would produce without the diodes. i never understood the DC stuff because of this issue.
Without the diodes, you will get 3 phase AC form the alternator and you can only get it across any two poles of the three phases. This means that you can only use 1/3 of the total power. The other reason that DC is good is that you mave a much larger selection of welding rod with DC.

The diodes are not fragile. They are rated at 300 V (peak inverse voltage) and 70 A each, which is over twice what each phase puts out.


Quote:
Originally posted by ozarkjeep:
and those pictures of weld beads several posts above.. will those hold?
Shyeah! They are just like any other beads from a 3/32 rod. Just look at the penetration at the end of that 6011 bead.

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Pin Head ]
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Old 10-24-2001, 09:41 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nukeiridium:
<STRONG>Anyway, I know you guys don't wanna hear this but this on-board welder is prolly a temporary thing at best... Be warned that running the voltage directly to the field is gonna burn out the diode bridge in the alternator much sooner than it would burn out just using it as an alternator, I would say that it is not going to last very long. I guess it doesn't matter though if it is only for emergency trail repairs, but I'm telling ya that if you use this much it will burn your diodes one at a time until when they are all gone, the alternator will no longer work.</STRONG>
True, I do see the alt burning out eventually. But, for the most part, an on-board welder is more of an emergency type thing than a "go weld up a full tube frame" type thing <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> I don't see myself using it for more than 15 minutes a wheeling trip.

I liken this project to an on-board air system. I doubt anyone is seriously going to do industrial high-duty cycle work with one... but for filling tires and the occational air powered tool, it is perfect.

I also haven't heard a long term report on anyone who has done this project. Hmmm, maybe a Kragen lifetime warrantied alt would be a good thing in this case <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">
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