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Howe vs PSC

28K views 146 replies 81 participants last post by  73FJBUGGY 
#1 ·
What have you guys found to work best and why? Any disadvantages to either? Does one have a better steering response? Better pump, orbital, or ram? I am about to purchase some steering for a ultra 4 car. I have ran PSC before but only in slow rock crawling

Thanks!
 
#46 ·
pump

Brand new psc n pump lasted 84 miles put the howe tc pump on it, and its lasted testing-stampede and more testing.When talking to Howe about steering
i knew i was at the right place after about a 1 1/2 hour of talking and questions
i ordered a complete system with the trophy truck pump, i like calling and Jeff or george will help answer questions now.I also ran a howe tc for 3.5 years on my f-toy with no problem.Howe products are the best, not the best priced
 
#48 ·
I have been dealing with Jeff Howe for over 15 years and have nothing but great experience and customer service from him but mostly I have always had a system that works. :smokin:


He isn't hard to deal with as long as you subscribe to his methods and ways of doing things. :laughing:
 
#49 ·
I bought a Howe full hydraulic system for my rig 5 years ago. The guy I spoke with at the time had that "better than me attitude" when he found out I was a Rock Crawler. After sitting for 3 years (because I had the Formula Toy) I started putting my rig back together. I had changed motors so I needed to change to a serpentine pully. I was also worried about the pully size now that I would be running at a higher RPM for longer periods of time. I dreaded calling Howe because I didn't want to deal with the attitude but I sucked it up and called anyway.
Jeff Howe happened to answer the phone. He was very pleasant and respectful. He took the time to answer my questions on why some of the high dollar teams in KOH were having steering failures. He spelled out a few common installation errors. He didn't bad mouth the competition. He asked me detailed questions about my rig and about how I would be driving it. He recommended what I should buy. when I asked about the more expensive products he said I didn't need it. When I finally told him I was a KOH competitor he offered a discount in exchange for advertisement.
It was a pleasure talking to him and I wouldn't hesitate recommending him to anyone.
So there you go Blaine, I'm far from a big name and I was plesantly surprised with their customer service.
 
#54 ·
So there you go Blaine, I'm far from a big name and I was plesantly surprised with their customer service.
It seems like from the people who have had favorable service with them it has solely been with Jeff. Before this thread I, like many, many others, had no clue who Jeff is/was. So without knowing who to talk to or ask for when calling Howe, if luck isn't on your side and Jeff doesn't answer the phone, then his employees are STILL practicing bad business habits.

SuperRanger, glad to see you are passing the word to him. If I were Jeff Howe and I knew my employee's were making my business look bad by their attitude toward potential cu$tomer$, I would fire them on the spot.
 
#53 ·
I like to watch comp guys abuse parts and as a consumer, I watch that closely.

That said, I never, ever listen to a sponsored comp guy on an open forum when they start recommending parts.

I want to hear from them face-to-face or from the average Joe.
 
#63 ·
If you really think about this, do you think guys like Brad Lovell or myself are willing to sacrifice a chance at winning by using parts we don't really have faith in? For many of comp guys that have never had a podium finish, they'll gladly take the free part over the best part available. A few years ago when contingency money and the event purse was good I could take home $7500 for a win at a We-Rock comp. Do you think that I would risk that so I could save a few hundred dollars by going with a sponsored PSC pump vs. a Howe pump if I didn't feel confident in thier product? Most of my sponsors have been with me for a while now. If I didn't feel good about the parts I was using (and the people I was working with) I would go somewhere else. I don't need to bull shit anyone about the parts I use because it's stuff I believe in.
 
#57 · (Edited)
I live a few blocks from Howe and have had their parts on a number of vehicles...if I deal with Jeff directly, I get decent service and communication but still feel like I am being treated like an idiot when I say what we're running and why. With his other employees, I've had less than stellar service for sure. All in all, I had just as many failures with HOWE parts as anyone else's. However, that's not to say HOWE is doing something wrong...they do what they do and have developed a number of great parts. Attitude on the phone is the one area where they seem lacking...again, I like Jeff, would deal with him when he has a competitive price or a part that I need, some of his other guys, well, not so much. Although, I will say George has always been alright too, but still, it's always seemed like they treat rockcrawlers as more of an oddity than a customer. I will say that I have a PILE of dead TC pumps from there, but won't blame them, even though early on, I ran their entire system from the res, to the box, to the ram, and his spec of hose. Truly, I have no better luck with his TC over others and in our case, think that their desert-oriented hopped up TC is NOT the way to go as pressures and cavitation from steering to max angles all the time and leaning the res so far you create air pockets, do not mix. In the desert, you don't hold at max steer like we do, and if you're over at that angle in a fast rig, you've got problems beyond steering pump. If I was building a rack setup, Jeff would be the place to begin for sure.

PSC...well, they've had their obstacles as well. There was a time where I watched system after system fail with the blingiest parts they had...that was about 5 years ago when they went through a trial and error period as they really pushed the limits of the parts they had. As they pushed so hard, they actually cost their competitors with numerous failures...BUT...welcome to the way this sport seems to work with teams taking higher risks of running newly developed parts without actual testing time to see if those parts will last. That lasted for about a season and a half and everyone seemed to work the bugs out. All the while, even with the negatives of failures, Tom and his crew was RIGHT THERE at the events, servicing and supporting those teams. That kind of thing makes a bad thing sting a ton less and in the end, they ended up with a nice line of parts earned the hard way...now, over the last few years, people have seen PSC really taking positive steps and they have become far stronger on ALL fronts.

West Texas Offroad has been our go-to company for ram assist and our P pumps as they not only have amazing service and great pricing, but all-along they didn't fall into this trap the aftermarket steering companies created, which was a pressure war. Everyone wanted to tout higher pressures, where Matt stuck with delivering FLOW, instead of pressure. Our rigs turned as good as anyone elses but the benefit was longevity. I give Matt huge kudos for keeping me on track with that attitude and we continue to use him for ram-assist and p-pumps. I have NEVER had a negaitve experience with Matt, however, his offering is pretty limited if you're in need of wild stuff. For straightforward hydro assist though, he's the man.

Station at POS is the last guy we've had experience with. I place him above all others when it comes to knowledge and building systems that flat-out work. He's somewhere between Howe and PSC in pricing but when you call with a question, he actually OVER-delivers on info, teaching you the hows and whys of what you're after, and making valid recommendations on avenues you can take, even recommending other people's products over his if they'll fit your needs better. The downside is sometimes Station is harder to reach and as he has such a diverse amount of offerings, but is a small company, does not always have everything on the shelf so there may be a few day's delay. He does tell you that in advance though. Overall, Sean is my go-to-guy for full-hydro.

And regarding Nolan's statement about sponsored teams...I'll state this...although we are the kind of team that doens't bullshit...we tell the positives AND negaitves of the products we run, sponsored or not...in the case of steering, we don't have a common "sponsorship" from ANY steering company. When Station can cut us a break in price down to his wholesale, he does it. Matt does the same, but due to the size of his company, like Station, he doesn't exactly have a lot of room for marketing. But in both cases, often enough we pay full-pop. Still, those guys were there with SOLUTIONS versus just telling us that our problem was that we didn't run their entire system, when that's not much of a solution in the first place. That kind of service is the reason we continue to go to those two for our primary needs, but again, we also source parts from PSC and Howe, when they happen to have a better price or a part we need.
 
#58 ·
I have had good service with PSC and they do go out of their way for the customer to work through the issue. I also had Station do some great work for me as well. Sean has designed my system with his reservoir and PSC components and I got a full year of Ultra 4 racing w/o a failure. that is a lot of high rpm miles as well as some serious rockcrawling involved. PSC has stepped up to the plate and continually improved their service. They deserve to get back what they have put into making customers happy.
Sean @ Station deserves a real good look whenever he decides to throw his hat back into the ring. Everything Dustin said about Sean is a true statement. His knowledge of hydraulic steering is second to none and he will overdeliver with information about how/why he makes his choices.
Howe or PSC is what this thead is titled. PSC is here doing what they do, and always improving and moving forward. I made one call to Howe about 7 years ago and it was enough to go else where......PSC for me.
 
#59 ·
Prior to getting into this whole deal I only had junkyard steering. I didn't choose Howe as it was already on the buggy when I bought it. I was a nobody from Pirate. The person that answers the phone there has always been helpful, and I have since had several conversations with Jeff and he has been more than helpfull. I have never had an issue with my pump, or the service from Howe. Because racing is all about extreme reliability my pump is serviced every now and then, however I don't think I've sent it in since KOH 2010. There is a spare pump strapped to my frame that I have never used.

The new sister car to mine has PSC, however it is a completely different system with a double ended ram. It will be interesting to compare reliability.
 
#60 ·
last month i baught the TT 2.75 rack system from Howe for my recent build. I thought i had the system figured out when i called to make the purchase. Jeff started asking questions and broke down all my percieved inteligence on the topic. what i thought was going to be a simple call and a credit card took me over an hour as Jeff put together what he felt was the optimal system for my app. I had no idea there were so many options to the 2.75 system on the websight-but there are multiple considerations. worth every penny
 
#61 ·
I bought my Howe set up 6ish years ago, I wasnt impressed with the people I spoke with on the phone but they never spoke bad about about anyone else. They werent talkative. The end of the second season with my howe stuff I burnt a pump, due to stupid plumbing on my part.
I called thinking I was going to send mine in for rebuild and Jeff answered the phone. I explained what happened, and that I knew I plumbed the resevoir to pump wrong.
He said based on that, it wasnt worth rebuilding because it would need "hard" parts. He then asked me several questions about how my system was plumbed, where parts were located etc etc. Even thought my valve was not in a good location he told me what to do to get the air out after a roll. Anyways after that I choose to test his knowledge and I tore down my fried pump and sure enough the main shaft was broken.
After that Ill stick with Howe for along time.
One thing Ive noticed about people around here that are running PSC is all their pumps whine very quickly when the nose gets up on a ledge.
 
#67 ·
I think you confused service with warranty. They are not the same in my case. A lot of times the call is to explore another option or to discuss fine tuning installations.

I have never had 5 of anything that was bad at the same time from PSC. :laughing:
 
#64 ·
Thanks for all your inputs guys, I really appreciate them. Sounds like to me PSC stands behind there product well. Like I said I have ran PSC before on my old tj. It was fine for crawling but once I started rallying it it was a bit sketchy and slow. Could have been the parts I had. Jesse you say you have a TT type pump from PSC that has higher numbers, is this something they sell or is it in a production type deal?
 
#65 ·
Hmm...I just looked at PSC's site and didn't find it. I'm pretty sure it was on the a few months ago though. I believe they referred to it as a Super Pump. It has a can on it like a P pump, but it's considerably larger. Give them a call and see what they say about it.
 
#71 · (Edited)
PSC has the best service for many years. They are very willing to help and frequently go beyond the call of duty with service and warranty. I will not buy from anyone else other than PSC.
Howe...I spoke with them twice. Last time was as recent as two years ago..Not very friendly, bitched about their "competitor"...blah,blah,blah..same as everyone else that had less than good experiences.
POS..aka station...well he is extremely knowledgeable. But, seriously WTF good does it do when it is an act of god to get ahold of him or him call you.If you know what your doing, and know where to look you can get just about anything he sells straight from the actual manufacturer.
 
#72 ·
I looked into Howe when I bought my first system, I made two phone calls, felt like I was spoken down to.

PSC got my money. I installed most of their system, built my own hoses etc.

On Ultimate Adventure my plastic factory pulley I installed on their pump disintegrated. Someone on the trip had a spare pump and pulley and I installed it to get through the trip and back to my trailer. When I got back from UA I sent PSC my pump with the shattered pulley, and the borrowed pump. They tore mine down to verify any issues, found none, replaced the soft parts and sent it back to me with a new billet pulley installed. Took the pump I borrowed, tore it down and inspected it and replaced all of the soft parts, and sent it back to the gentleman in Georgia I borrowed it from. You cant deny that type of service. When it came time a few months ago to spend a bunch of my hard earned money it went to PSC for a DE ram and orbital, cant brag them up enough.

And my ram from a few months ago is grooved, has 4 clamps on it and is sitting in my living room as decor.
 
#74 ·
I will throw a vote out there for Howe. I have had good service and info from them from the first call a couple of years ago. They knew what I was doing (rock crawl comps) and helped me put together a system including customizing the ram throw to match my steering constraints. They even helped me get around some issues like not being able to fit the normal filtered reservoir that they use. They told me what kind of filter mount and filter would work and keep things working the way they should. Then they made sure that I understood the plumbing, didn't try to sell me anything I did not need, and helped me choose an order of importance for spare parts. I paid for all of my parts but they were great about helping me out when I had a freak problem with a part in a comp and they even helped me come up with a preventative solution even though I don't hold them responsible. I have purchased from them multiple times and I have had good service each time. The one time a shipment got a little messed up they were quick to fix it on their dime. I honestly can't say anything bad about them and definitely can't say anything bad about their components.
I do have experience with PSC as that is what was on my car originally when I built it. I was not usually pleased with the help I got on the phone and the parts I used did not really impress me. I am not bashing anyone but rather giving a complete opinion.
 
#76 ·
It is not just this stuff, it is anything that sponsored racers use. I listen, I watch, I read but I do not go with the ON-LINE recommendation of MOST racers.

I call them, talk to them in person or I talk to the local heros that I know paid 100% out of their pocket.
 
#77 ·
Many of us sponsored guys were once broke dicks too that paid full price for everything. Just sayin:D No one gave me anything starting out and I got the receipts for many years of parts. Tom and PSC were one of the firsts to work with us on some custom parts that evolutionized away from comps into crawlers. We've always looked for the best parts because like Jesse said losing a comp becuase of a failed part just doesnt cut it. Time and time again PSC stepped up to the plate to push the envelope, it did cost us a place once or twice but never a whole win that I can say. I'm still on my same super pump from when I built my go fast buggy that is now three years old and probably 20+ races and I dont know how many trail miles.
 
#78 ·
My dealings with howe have been nothing but good. When we were putting in a pump we were nobodies who somehow qualified for KOH. We bought a PSC pump FIRST, after sending multiple pumps back we gave up and went with Howe. Jeff has been nothing but helpful.

PSC customer support was top notch. They had no problem sending out replacements. We just couldn't wait anymore.
 
#79 ·
God I hate threads like this.

Chevy vs Ford, Green Tractors vs. red Tractors. Blah Blah



I dont race offroad anymore, and didnt have a steering sponsor anyway.
But I think my experience with BOTH companies is valid in this thread.



I was fighting burning up a TC pump in two-three rounds of a 4 round XRRA event. It was getting old.

I had called PSC mid season and to be honest wasnt wow'ed (Lance must have been on vacation) with the on phone service. Based on one phone call they lost my business (yes rather rash of me, but thats all it took that day) It came down to I wanted a reservoir with a filter on it. Howe offered it.

So I called Howe. Jeff walked me through options, and I was willing to buy a Trophy pump, I was so there, I was so tired of fighting burnt pumps. He had the opportunity to up sell me, and he didnt. He said lets prove this out and we'll put a TT on your next car. Howe did me right, great service, great product. Solved all my issues, never had another steering problem on that car, and it was sold with that system intact.

Now lets get back to PSC, I've now come to know Lance very well and have been around PSC's pumps ALOT. They give equally good service if not better and have equally good equipment. PSC really has stepped up with 4400 racing and sponsoring KOH/Endurance style racing. Howe has not but Howe is heavy in desert.


They both make great products, they both have great service. IMO it comes down to preference. But even then it cant make up for a poorly installed top of the line system. You still have to run the BIG hydro lines, make sure you have a SUCTION rated on the resi side of the pump. Make sure the RESI is high enough. Bleed, bleed, bleed. Then rock out.


Joking, but its better for me to buy Howe than PSC because as a Texas resident I have to pay PSC sales tax, and Howe I dont, LOL.....
 
#83 ·
What I'm gathering from this thread is that if your using Howe stuff for racing, and you let them know right away, you get better service than if you tell them its for your trail rig/play toy.

I worked on a pro truck team for a while and they HAD to use Howe stuff, per the pro-truck rules. We broke stuff. We spent lots of money having EVERYTHING rebuilt every race, incuding hoses, and we had something happen every race(that I was part of). Sometimes it was minor like a leaky ram, others it was broken sector shafts.

I personally will probably give PSC my business when the time comes, just because of their support and dedication to our sport.

But, I'm sure both companys make killer products this has just been my experience.
 
#84 ·
I respect psc and what they do for the sport. When I was building my car 7 years ago I built it using de psc ram(groveless). I had so many problems with trying to get it to stay put. Finally psc starting making the groved model then stopped making it again after that. Luckly I purchased a groved model and have had it in my junk for 6 years. This year it will be my 4th KOH with it. Since installing my 6.0 I learned about breaking pump shafts. POS claimed he was going to make a billet shaft and never did. He also claimed his pump I couldn't break the shaft with 400 hp at the time. Well that didn't prove to be correct and Sean told me to pound sand on the warranty. All this time running the tall appleton res with filter.

I called Jeff Howe and he sold me his truck pump which I have great success with. I haven't had a pump failure in two going on three years. I called him and he always goes out of his way to explain everything. For me at the time their was no way I could afford to re-accessory the front of my truck motor to run the tt pump. Howe has stood by their word for me and I really appreciate the quality parts. I think the biggest thing is I call leave a message to speak with Jeff and he calls me back when he isn't in the shop trying to get shit done.
 
#87 ·
No pics on their site yet. Here is a picture of one mounted. On an LS motor, you need to have the Truck brackets and accessories such as balancer pulley, and water pump for the correct offset. The pump is huge, and the factory car brackets & accessories don't stick the pump out far enough to clear.

Even with the truck brackets, you have to cut the bottom half of the factory bracket off and purchase the PSC mount- retails for $79.70

The PS1700C Super-Flo pump pictured below retails for $275. It requires a custom reservoir with a #12 feed and #8 return so that it does not burn up.

I just set up a KOH racer with this set up this week.
 

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#88 ·
I'm an average joe ******* wheeler from AZ that is hard on my shit every weekend. I was always trying to do things on the cheap with tractor rams and converted steering pumps. Our group wheels some of the hardest trails around and we also like to mix in so go-fast stuff. 95% of the guys I wheel with use PSC products because they either frequent Pirate4x4.com and/or one of our club members is a authorized dealer.

After doing my research, learning about full-hydro steering, I went with Howe and couldn't be happier. I didn't mind paying an extra 10% for a system that I felt offers 50% more performance & craftsmanship than anything else on the market. Customer service was spot on (I dealt with Jeff & George). I don't worry about sending my pump back for rebuilds, or tightening the bolts on my ram, or wondering when my cyclinder shaft is starting to buckle. I feel by spending a little extra money on Howe I have saved myself much more money in the long run and have less downtime than my buddies. My favorite part is letting my friends drive my rig and seeing their faces when they feel the difference in steering set-ups. :grinpimp:
 
#90 ·
One topic that has been overlooked in this thread that has been discussed in the past; sealed non vented system vrs. vented systems. With a sealed system,in my experience you need to burb your cap on a sealed system when you change elevation.
The upsides of sealed systems are less pump whine and of course less opportunities to puke ps. fluid out the cap into a catchment container or on to the header.
 
#94 ·
The last rig I built had a ls1 with the TC pump from psc it was horrible, after 5 pumps going back and forth from me to them I gave up. There customer servcie is better than awesome, but that isn't worth a shit when you drive 5 hrs to Gray rock for a weekend to be done after an hours worth of wheeling because another pump went out. I had at least 10 trips blown cause of that one single problem. I went to Howe and with 30+ rides on it still no problems. However I have another rig with the P style pump on it from psc. Have had the same pump on it for 4 years now. It still works as good as it did 4 years ago when I put it on.

A double ended ram without grooves in it or at least 4 brackets is a problem waiting to happen!
 
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