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Old 12-17-2010, 03:13 PM   #51 (permalink)
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No it wasn't.

Jason had a part fail at the race. PSC was their and fixed it.
I guess we got different stories from the same guy then, so I'll go ahead and give you one of these back.

I know you've been a Howe guy since day 1 Erik, that's why I went with them years ago, from your recommendation. 'My' personal experience with them fully blowed, that was MY experience, judging from most of the replies here it wasn't a fluke deal.
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:13 PM   #52 (permalink)
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get a little more info before you say it wasn't Camo...that was part of it, but not all of it.

PSC went above and beyond to help Jason get up and running and into a new system. I spent hours working on it with them in the parking lot....I should know.
I wasn't there but I herd about it. It sounds to like PSC saw an oppertunity to step up and gain a potentially big customer and rose to the occasion.

Cudos to PSC for being there on site. maybe Howe should attend more events. Maybe the guys at Howe are not into Rock Crawling like PSC is.
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:15 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I like to watch comp guys abuse parts and as a consumer, I watch that closely.

That said, I never, ever listen to a sponsored comp guy on an open forum when they start recommending parts.

I want to hear from them face-to-face or from the average Joe.
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:29 PM   #54 (permalink)
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So there you go Blaine, I'm far from a big name and I was plesantly surprised with their customer service.
It seems like from the people who have had favorable service with them it has solely been with Jeff. Before this thread I, like many, many others, had no clue who Jeff is/was. So without knowing who to talk to or ask for when calling Howe, if luck isn't on your side and Jeff doesn't answer the phone, then his employees are STILL practicing bad business habits.

SuperRanger, glad to see you are passing the word to him. If I were Jeff Howe and I knew my employee's were making my business look bad by their attitude toward potential cu$tomer$, I would fire them on the spot.
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:33 PM   #55 (permalink)
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PSC went above and beyond.....
When we ran their stuff they always did go above and beyond. Tom is a stand up guy that I respect. We might even be racing each other in 2011.

Maybe, just maybe...... dare I say PSC for some and Howe for others???
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:35 PM   #56 (permalink)
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It seems like from the people who have had favorable service with them it has solely been with Jeff. Before this thread I, like many, many others, had no clue who Jeff is/was. So without knowing who to talk to or ask for when calling Howe, if luck isn't on your side and Jeff doesn't answer the phone, then his employees are STILL practicing bad business habits.
Jeff or George are good. I don't who else (if anyone) to contact there. I'm out!
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:43 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I live a few blocks from Howe and have had their parts on a number of vehicles...if I deal with Jeff directly, I get decent service and communication but still feel like I am being treated like an idiot when I say what we're running and why. With his other employees, I've had less than stellar service for sure. All in all, I had just as many failures with HOWE parts as anyone else's. However, that's not to say HOWE is doing something wrong...they do what they do and have developed a number of great parts. Attitude on the phone is the one area where they seem lacking...again, I like Jeff, would deal with him when he has a competitive price or a part that I need, some of his other guys, well, not so much. Although, I will say George has always been alright too, but still, it's always seemed like they treat rockcrawlers as more of an oddity than a customer. I will say that I have a PILE of dead TC pumps from there, but won't blame them, even though early on, I ran their entire system from the res, to the box, to the ram, and his spec of hose. Truly, I have no better luck with his TC over others and in our case, think that their desert-oriented hopped up TC is NOT the way to go as pressures and cavitation from steering to max angles all the time and leaning the res so far you create air pockets, do not mix. In the desert, you don't hold at max steer like we do, and if you're over at that angle in a fast rig, you've got problems beyond steering pump. If I was building a rack setup, Jeff would be the place to begin for sure.

PSC...well, they've had their obstacles as well. There was a time where I watched system after system fail with the blingiest parts they had...that was about 5 years ago when they went through a trial and error period as they really pushed the limits of the parts they had. As they pushed so hard, they actually cost their competitors with numerous failures...BUT...welcome to the way this sport seems to work with teams taking higher risks of running newly developed parts without actual testing time to see if those parts will last. That lasted for about a season and a half and everyone seemed to work the bugs out. All the while, even with the negatives of failures, Tom and his crew was RIGHT THERE at the events, servicing and supporting those teams. That kind of thing makes a bad thing sting a ton less and in the end, they ended up with a nice line of parts earned the hard way...now, over the last few years, people have seen PSC really taking positive steps and they have become far stronger on ALL fronts.

West Texas Offroad has been our go-to company for ram assist and our P pumps as they not only have amazing service and great pricing, but all-along they didn't fall into this trap the aftermarket steering companies created, which was a pressure war. Everyone wanted to tout higher pressures, where Matt stuck with delivering FLOW, instead of pressure. Our rigs turned as good as anyone elses but the benefit was longevity. I give Matt huge kudos for keeping me on track with that attitude and we continue to use him for ram-assist and p-pumps. I have NEVER had a negaitve experience with Matt, however, his offering is pretty limited if you're in need of wild stuff. For straightforward hydro assist though, he's the man.

Station at POS is the last guy we've had experience with. I place him above all others when it comes to knowledge and building systems that flat-out work. He's somewhere between Howe and PSC in pricing but when you call with a question, he actually OVER-delivers on info, teaching you the hows and whys of what you're after, and making valid recommendations on avenues you can take, even recommending other people's products over his if they'll fit your needs better. The downside is sometimes Station is harder to reach and as he has such a diverse amount of offerings, but is a small company, does not always have everything on the shelf so there may be a few day's delay. He does tell you that in advance though. Overall, Sean is my go-to-guy for full-hydro.

And regarding Nolan's statement about sponsored teams...I'll state this...although we are the kind of team that doens't bullshit...we tell the positives AND negaitves of the products we run, sponsored or not...in the case of steering, we don't have a common "sponsorship" from ANY steering company. When Station can cut us a break in price down to his wholesale, he does it. Matt does the same, but due to the size of his company, like Station, he doesn't exactly have a lot of room for marketing. But in both cases, often enough we pay full-pop. Still, those guys were there with SOLUTIONS versus just telling us that our problem was that we didn't run their entire system, when that's not much of a solution in the first place. That kind of service is the reason we continue to go to those two for our primary needs, but again, we also source parts from PSC and Howe, when they happen to have a better price or a part we need.

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Old 12-17-2010, 04:15 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I have had good service with PSC and they do go out of their way for the customer to work through the issue. I also had Station do some great work for me as well. Sean has designed my system with his reservoir and PSC components and I got a full year of Ultra 4 racing w/o a failure. that is a lot of high rpm miles as well as some serious rockcrawling involved. PSC has stepped up to the plate and continually improved their service. They deserve to get back what they have put into making customers happy.
Sean @ Station deserves a real good look whenever he decides to throw his hat back into the ring. Everything Dustin said about Sean is a true statement. His knowledge of hydraulic steering is second to none and he will overdeliver with information about how/why he makes his choices.
Howe or PSC is what this thead is titled. PSC is here doing what they do, and always improving and moving forward. I made one call to Howe about 7 years ago and it was enough to go else where......PSC for me.
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Old 12-17-2010, 04:25 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Prior to getting into this whole deal I only had junkyard steering. I didn't choose Howe as it was already on the buggy when I bought it. I was a nobody from Pirate. The person that answers the phone there has always been helpful, and I have since had several conversations with Jeff and he has been more than helpfull. I have never had an issue with my pump, or the service from Howe. Because racing is all about extreme reliability my pump is serviced every now and then, however I don't think I've sent it in since KOH 2010. There is a spare pump strapped to my frame that I have never used.

The new sister car to mine has PSC, however it is a completely different system with a double ended ram. It will be interesting to compare reliability.
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Old 12-17-2010, 05:32 PM   #60 (permalink)
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last month i baught the TT 2.75 rack system from Howe for my recent build. I thought i had the system figured out when i called to make the purchase. Jeff started asking questions and broke down all my percieved inteligence on the topic. what i thought was going to be a simple call and a credit card took me over an hour as Jeff put together what he felt was the optimal system for my app. I had no idea there were so many options to the 2.75 system on the websight-but there are multiple considerations. worth every penny
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Old 12-17-2010, 05:45 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I bought my Howe set up 6ish years ago, I wasnt impressed with the people I spoke with on the phone but they never spoke bad about about anyone else. They werent talkative. The end of the second season with my howe stuff I burnt a pump, due to stupid plumbing on my part.
I called thinking I was going to send mine in for rebuild and Jeff answered the phone. I explained what happened, and that I knew I plumbed the resevoir to pump wrong.
He said based on that, it wasnt worth rebuilding because it would need "hard" parts. He then asked me several questions about how my system was plumbed, where parts were located etc etc. Even thought my valve was not in a good location he told me what to do to get the air out after a roll. Anyways after that I choose to test his knowledge and I tore down my fried pump and sure enough the main shaft was broken.
After that Ill stick with Howe for along time.
One thing Ive noticed about people around here that are running PSC is all their pumps whine very quickly when the nose gets up on a ledge.
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Old 12-17-2010, 05:46 PM   #62 (permalink)
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My .02

Every time this subject comes up 50 people say psc is better because they were great with a warranty exchange. I'd rather not deal with the warranty and just have a good part. Do Howe parts fail as frequently?
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Old 12-17-2010, 05:51 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I like to watch comp guys abuse parts and as a consumer, I watch that closely.

That said, I never, ever listen to a sponsored comp guy on an open forum when they start recommending parts.

I want to hear from them face-to-face or from the average Joe.
If you really think about this, do you think guys like Brad Lovell or myself are willing to sacrifice a chance at winning by using parts we don't really have faith in? For many of comp guys that have never had a podium finish, they'll gladly take the free part over the best part available. A few years ago when contingency money and the event purse was good I could take home $7500 for a win at a We-Rock comp. Do you think that I would risk that so I could save a few hundred dollars by going with a sponsored PSC pump vs. a Howe pump if I didn't feel confident in thier product? Most of my sponsors have been with me for a while now. If I didn't feel good about the parts I was using (and the people I was working with) I would go somewhere else. I don't need to bull shit anyone about the parts I use because it's stuff I believe in.
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Old 12-17-2010, 05:57 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Thanks for all your inputs guys, I really appreciate them. Sounds like to me PSC stands behind there product well. Like I said I have ran PSC before on my old tj. It was fine for crawling but once I started rallying it it was a bit sketchy and slow. Could have been the parts I had. Jesse you say you have a TT type pump from PSC that has higher numbers, is this something they sell or is it in a production type deal?
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Old 12-17-2010, 06:07 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Thanks for all your inputs guys, I really appreciate them. Sounds like to me PSC stands behind there product well. Like I said I have ran PSC before on my old tj. It was fine for crawling but once I started rallying it it was a bit sketchy and slow. Could have been the parts I had. Jesse you say you have a TT type pump from PSC that has higher numbers, is this something they sell or is it in a production type deal?
Hmm...I just looked at PSC's site and didn't find it. I'm pretty sure it was on the a few months ago though. I believe they referred to it as a Super Pump. It has a can on it like a P pump, but it's considerably larger. Give them a call and see what they say about it.
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Old 12-17-2010, 06:34 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Station at POS ...he actually OVER-delivers on info, teaching you the hows and whys of what you're after.
The truth.

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Old 12-17-2010, 06:59 PM   #67 (permalink)
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My .02

Every time this subject comes up 50 people say psc is better because they were great with a warranty exchange. I'd rather not deal with the warranty and just have a good part. Do Howe parts fail as frequently?

I think you confused service with warranty. They are not the same in my case. A lot of times the call is to explore another option or to discuss fine tuning installations.

I have never had 5 of anything that was bad at the same time from PSC.
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Old 12-17-2010, 07:00 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Thanks for all your inputs guys, I really appreciate them. Sounds like to me PSC stands behind there product well. Like I said I have ran PSC before on my old tj. It was fine for crawling but once I started rallying it it was a bit sketchy and slow. Could have been the parts I had. Jesse you say you have a TT type pump from PSC that has higher numbers, is this something they sell or is it in a production type deal?
Not sure on what type of setup you are doing, but matching pump to ram to orbital to vehicle use is important- especially for full hydro. Additionally, reservoir placement, feed line size & return line size can make a difference etc.
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Old 12-17-2010, 07:10 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Not sure on what type of setup you are doing, but matching pump to ram to orbital to vehicle use is important- especially for full hydro. Additionally, reservoir placement, feed line size & return line size can make a difference etc.
well the new car is going to be a duel sided ram running off a LS2
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Old 12-17-2010, 07:46 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Old 12-17-2010, 08:09 PM   #71 (permalink)
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PSC has the best service for many years. They are very willing to help and frequently go beyond the call of duty with service and warranty. I will not buy from anyone else other than PSC.
Howe...I spoke with them twice. Last time was as recent as two years ago..Not very friendly, bitched about their "competitor"...blah,blah,blah..same as everyone else that had less than good experiences.
POS..aka station...well he is extremely knowledgeable. But, seriously WTF good does it do when it is an act of god to get ahold of him or him call you.If you know what your doing, and know where to look you can get just about anything he sells straight from the actual manufacturer.

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Old 12-17-2010, 08:39 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I looked into Howe when I bought my first system, I made two phone calls, felt like I was spoken down to.

PSC got my money. I installed most of their system, built my own hoses etc.

On Ultimate Adventure my plastic factory pulley I installed on their pump disintegrated. Someone on the trip had a spare pump and pulley and I installed it to get through the trip and back to my trailer. When I got back from UA I sent PSC my pump with the shattered pulley, and the borrowed pump. They tore mine down to verify any issues, found none, replaced the soft parts and sent it back to me with a new billet pulley installed. Took the pump I borrowed, tore it down and inspected it and replaced all of the soft parts, and sent it back to the gentleman in Georgia I borrowed it from. You cant deny that type of service. When it came time a few months ago to spend a bunch of my hard earned money it went to PSC for a DE ram and orbital, cant brag them up enough.

And my ram from a few months ago is grooved, has 4 clamps on it and is sitting in my living room as decor.
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Old 12-17-2010, 09:33 PM   #73 (permalink)
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That said, I never, ever listen to a sponsored comp guy on an open forum when they start recommending parts.
I would say that most sponsored guys don't get 100% FREE parts, some do but most just get a discount. I was offered the same discount with both Howe and PSC. I only went down the Howe path because my buggy was used and had it on there.

At one point my TC pump had been sent to PSC for service/rebuild. And they stamped the back. When I finally sent the same pump to Howe after KOH 2009 (pump whined the last half of the race, spit fluid and had to be iced down) I was given the third degree from Jeff Howe about the PSC stamp on my pump. He literally said, I bet the reason why your pump doesn't flow the stated amount is because PSC stole all my good parts of the pump to put in their shitty pumps for another customer. At this point I new this pump would never be on my buggy again, that is the dumbest shit I heard. I complained enough and mention my frustration of the wild goose chase of lines, fluid, routing, etc I went on that Jeff repaired the pump for free. I sold that pump to a buddy, never ran it. I switched to PSC and while I have had some pump issues and also ran a few experimental pumps along the way, I have been very happy with their product and personal service. Bad mouthing the competition is not cool, especailly on the phone iwth a potential customer.
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:30 AM   #74 (permalink)
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I will throw a vote out there for Howe. I have had good service and info from them from the first call a couple of years ago. They knew what I was doing (rock crawl comps) and helped me put together a system including customizing the ram throw to match my steering constraints. They even helped me get around some issues like not being able to fit the normal filtered reservoir that they use. They told me what kind of filter mount and filter would work and keep things working the way they should. Then they made sure that I understood the plumbing, didn't try to sell me anything I did not need, and helped me choose an order of importance for spare parts. I paid for all of my parts but they were great about helping me out when I had a freak problem with a part in a comp and they even helped me come up with a preventative solution even though I don't hold them responsible. I have purchased from them multiple times and I have had good service each time. The one time a shipment got a little messed up they were quick to fix it on their dime. I honestly can't say anything bad about them and definitely can't say anything bad about their components.
I do have experience with PSC as that is what was on my car originally when I built it. I was not usually pleased with the help I got on the phone and the parts I used did not really impress me. I am not bashing anyone but rather giving a complete opinion.
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Old 12-18-2010, 06:18 AM   #75 (permalink)
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The truth.

Another vote for POS.











If you can get a damn call back once in a while! I know you're reading this. Call me back. It's time to go racing.
He has been a little busy with his part time job that takes up ALL of his time.......... He will come back sooner or later. He is supposedly coming to a Line Mtn. race this spring.... we will see. I just sent him a text.
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