fast hydraulic winch - Page 2 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > General 4x4 Discussion
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-23-2012, 10:37 AM   #26 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Rated View Post
where are you getting the pump? Upside to this arrangement is the the pump is not spinning and heating up the fluid all the time like a power steering pump is... Should help keep the fluid cool. cost?

Do you have pictures of what is coming off and what is going onto the winch?
Im getting a Muncie 7gpm 25cc/rev 3500psi pump, mounting it wherever it will fit, design & build my own brackets...
Valving is via a sub-base mounted (4way/center blocked) Vickers manual valve, stacked on a pressure relief valve... the valve can handle 5000psi & 16GPM, The regulator can go down from 4000psi so i can limit it to whatever the motor psi limit is on the winch.
I'm looking at a 10gal reservoir/tank to mount in the passenger firewall corner... but may have to make a small custom tank or shop Summitt racing.
Debating on a external cooler.. but one that can handle 4-5000psi is not easy. Also still shopping for a spin-on hydraulic remote filter mount.

Last edited by ohiobenz; 03-23-2012 at 11:04 AM.
ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 04:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Member # 102591
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 213
What about building a god winch? Using a third member as gearing reduction/angle drive. It's PTO rather than hydraulic, but if you want something fast...


skip ahead to about 2:25
superwinch tuff truck 2011 cheese's winch - YouTube!





http://kenfoto.multiply.com/photos/a...peed_PTO_winch

Last edited by -Dex-; 03-23-2012 at 04:33 PM.
-Dex- is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 03-23-2012, 09:42 PM   #28 (permalink)
Karnage
 
spidr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55444
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 8,164
Damn. His winch is faster than his truck
__________________
Sometimes you just gotta step back and take a breather.
spidr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2012, 05:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
Registered User
 
X-Rated's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Member # 72707
Location: Norfolk VA
Posts: 1,813
Am I in left field here?

This motor
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...name=hydraulic
turns 191rpm at 20GPM, and generates 6800 in/lbs at 2200 PSI

This pump
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...name=hydraulic
comes with a serpentine clutch pulley, puts out 20GPM at 2200PSI.

So, if you were using a drum that was 4" in diameter, the first layer of rope would be about 2" off the axis of the drum. If that motor is putting out 6800 inch pounds, then at 2 inches it would exert a pulling force of 3400 pounds, way to little. Now, the drum diameter was 4", so the circumference is pi * D or in the case about 12". Since at 20GPM the motor spins 191 RPM, you would have a line speed of 191 feet per minute. Way to fast. But if we geared the hydro motor down 4:1, we would get 13600 pounds of pulling power, and a line speed of 45 feet per minute. 3:1 would result in 10200 pounds of pulling power and 63 feet per minute.

I have ownes a 9.5TI which no loads at about 60FPM (pretty fast), and I have had TMAX winches that NL at 24 (painfully slow). I think if I had a hydro winch, that would pull 10000 pounds all day long, and was able to do it at 60 feet per minute, that would be incredible. Motor needs to be running, which is always a downside to hydro winches, but you wouldn't need to tap into your power steering pump, and it wouldn't take 12 years to get unstuck when you needed it. Wouldn't even need a free spool function, but could adapt one from an 8274 if needed...

At full load, almost every electric winch drops down to 6 feet a minute. This combo would yield 10 times the speed under load...

Parts are not cheap, but i think the end result would be insane, unless I am an idiot, have totally gooned up the math or physics or something else...
X-Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2012, 06:23 PM   #30 (permalink)
Registered User
 
X-Rated's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Member # 72707
Location: Norfolk VA
Posts: 1,813
here is a off the shelf planetary 3:1 reduction unit capable of +11000 in lb input torque...

http://matexgears.thomasnet.com/item...--lbs-/3mtz25?
X-Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 08:22 AM   #31 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Rated View Post
where are you getting the pump? Upside to this arrangement is the the pump is not spinning and heating up the fluid all the time like a power steering pump is... Should help keep the fluid cool. cost?

Do you have pictures of what is coming off and what is going onto the winch?
The pump is from LeeTransport.net shipped direct from Muncie. It should be here today or tomorrow.



I have a block designed to replace the MileMarker valve body that bolts to the motor. I'm picking up the $135 tool to cut the profile for the in-bound fluid connections in a bit...



At this point nothing else is getting removed from the winch - this block will provide 3/4-16 O-ring fitting for 1/2" tubing -8AN fittings. the passages to the motor are 3/8" Dia and just slightly smaller than the 1/2" tubing, but HUGE compared to the tiny MM orifices.
Since I am using a manual valve, I can throttle it, which can't be done with the electric valve body.



Hope this helps give an idea of the direction I'm taking....
ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 08:32 AM   #32 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90driver View Post
Hey guys - I've just installed a double Milemarker type R system on my winch challenge truck.

The winch is a modified M10 with 100cc/rev motor, a deeper drum (think its off an M12). I can get a full 125 feet of 11mm plasma rope on each drum

These are coupled up to 1/2" lines from a 60l/min lever spool valve in the cab.

The pump is an industrial class 3 34cc/rev with a pneumatically operated dogclutch. The pump is driven directly from the crank on Rover 3.9l V8 via a custom prop.

There is a 15liter tank in the back that has a 3/4" suction line through a filter to the pump.

In low speed, at 60l/min (1800rpm) I get 150 feet/min on the 4th llayer of rope, and 45 feet/min on the first layer.

In high speed, just multiply that by 6!

The costs for the whole system was less than buying a full Gigglepin GP83 setup, never mind the batteries, cabling, solenoids and bigger / 2nd alternator.

We used the system for 5 hours, winching and driving and the hydraulic oil was around 40 degrees C!

BTW - sorry for using metric stuff, but I can't work in gallons! (Especially US!)

For day to day stuff, the system is way OTT, but boy, does it pull forever!
OK, compared to those specs:

My Winch motor is the stock 10.5K with 17.9 ci/rev
My Pump is 25cc/rev or 7GPM @ 3500psi @ 1000rpm
My lines from/to the valve to the motor will be 1/2"
The Valve flows 16GPM up to 5600psi
The pressure control/relief Valve flows 20GPM I believe the MM motor is limited to 2250psi?
Feed line to the Valve will be 3/4"
Return line from the Valve will be 1"
Winch drum is stock MM 10.5K winch drum, I'm told they are all alike?

I'll take the time to convert either his numbers or mine later in order to get a comparison and idea of what to expect..

Last edited by ohiobenz; 03-28-2012 at 08:34 AM.
ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 11:30 AM   #33 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Member # 153343
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Posts: 104
I've run the milemarker type R for a few years now. Installation was difficult, but worth the effort when running over 2500psi. I carry about a gallon and a half of oil in a bulkhead tank. The valve block is 3/8" lever type which is pushing my luck on a 1/2" BSP set up. Heat doesn't seem to be an issue so far, even with a continually running pump.

But the winch to have at the moment is the Saley, which is a re-worked milemarker with a big drum and motor on top. It has decent free spool as well as two speeds.
Or the RedWinch product, which is another 2 speed hydraulic with proper roller bearings. They sell to the military so it's more like a high quality recovery winch than a compertition winch by design. But it is quick as well.

Here's my sump raft with the dog clutch on the front to take the hydraulic pump. The pump is right behind the front skid palte.



Hopefully this is some sort of link to it in high gear. If your impatient about rope reeving, (and we are) then a two speed winch is ideal

Two Speed Hydraulic Winch - YouTube
Teamidris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 05:43 PM   #34 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teamidris View Post
I've run the milemarker type R for a few years now. Installation was difficult, but worth the effort when running over 2500psi. I carry about a gallon and a half of oil in a bulkhead tank. The valve block is 3/8" lever type which is pushing my luck on a 1/2" BSP set up. Heat doesn't seem to be an issue so far, even with a continually running pump.

But the winch to have at the moment is the Saley, which is a re-worked milemarker with a big drum and motor on top. It has decent free spool as well as two speeds.
Or the RedWinch product, which is another 2 speed hydraulic with proper roller bearings. They sell to the military so it's more like a high quality recovery winch than a compertition winch by design. But it is quick as well.

Here's my sump raft with the dog clutch on the front to take the hydraulic pump. The pump is right behind the front skid palte.



Hopefully this is some sort of link to it in high gear. If your impatient about rope reeving, (and we are) then a two speed winch is ideal

Two Speed Hydraulic Winch - YouTube
If my quick rough calculations are correct, the motor is 290cc/re. The pump is 25cc/rev so at 1000rpm, it will turn the winch motor about 85rpm.
I'm not all that up on the OEM gearing of the MM winch is, other than that the reduction between hi & lo is 6:1.....
I am assuming that the max GPM tht people ever really got out of factory PS pumps is about 2GPM... The high flow ZF pumps maxed out around 3GPM. The incredibly small orifice in the OEM ?? Valve body. would/did restrict flow so much that I really have no idea what the speed increase will be...
ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 02:26 AM   #35 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Member # 153343
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Posts: 104
Your speed calcs sound right to me. Max rated speed on the typeR motor is 250 rpm with a short term max of 350rpm if I remember right. But you could do the surge speed all the while on a winch as the use is so short?
I'm not well up on the range of steering pumps, but my standard new one does 1600psi, so I'd be much higher than that with a relief valve lift in the over-run valve at 2600psi. I understand the typeR motor is quicker than standard, as the drum pull is about the same, with the extra pressure traded off against drum speed.
A standard milemarker electric valve is likely to create a lot of heat due to back pressure. But its a positive displacement gear pump, so the flow should force its way through. Which will mean less max line pull at full engine rev's?
I guess the external pipe threads are irrelavent, and it's the insides that count on back pressure.
If I hadn't had a 3/8" lever valve block in stock, I would definately have gone 1/2"
Teamidris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 05:03 AM   #36 (permalink)
Registered User
 
X-Rated's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Member # 72707
Location: Norfolk VA
Posts: 1,813
Type R motor max speed is 250 RPM? With what hydraulic pump turning at what RPM? IS that in High?

From what I read, Type R hydraulic winches are capable of 100 FTPM when the engine is turning 2000 RPM, and that is with the winch in low speed, or at max rated pull.

That seems awesome to me.

What does a saley winch cost and where can you get one? What GPM pump and what PSI is required?
X-Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 10:33 AM   #37 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
I just got off the phone with Muncie to get assistance in plumbing my new pump which came in yesterday
So they say that at 3200rpm my pump maxes out around 20GPM. My restriction now has become 2 items:
The Vickers valve can only flow 16GPM which I will reach at about 2500rpm
The openings in the MM motor are only 1/2" and I could only fit a clear shot of 3/8" ports in my adapter block - I may try to open those up to 1/2" once I have the block under my eyeballs...

So here are the line plumbing specs that Muncie gave me:
1 1/4" line from the tank to the pump feed
1" line from the valve to the tank
3/4" line from the valve to the motor

So since my other components max out flow at 2500rpm engine speed, that multiplies my hydraulic motor speed of 85 by 2.5 or 215rpm at the max end of the winch... not sure what FPM that translates into for line speed at Lo or Hi settings?
ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 11:04 AM   #38 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Member # 153343
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Posts: 104
"Type R motor max speed is 250 RPM?"

Quite correct, I'm talking nonce. It doesn't get that low until you get the the model 250.
Mine looks normal enough and is the MR100 SH/4 with 09/06 which I guess is September 2006 manufacture. It is 600 rpm normal, 750 intermitant. (19.8 gal/min max). Here is the data sheet for it; http://hydraulicsint.com.au/specific...raulics-MR.pdf .
Firstfour quote a Speed range 10 - 1400 rpm, which is way higher than that data sheet. But it looks to be a conveyer belt drive, so it can probably take some hammer if you don't want to see thousands of hours work out of it
Data sheet also says 99,8 [cm3/rev] for the MR100.

20 GPM is impressive
Maybe 2500 rpm will be enough? I don't normaly go over 1500 rpm on winch & drive. Otherwise you start going down rather than forward
Teamidris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 11:21 AM   #39 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teamidris View Post
"Type R motor max speed is 250 RPM?"

Quite correct, I'm talking nonce. It doesn't get that low until you get the the model 250.
Mine looks normal enough and is the MR100 SH/4 with 09/06 which I guess is September 2006 manufacture. It is 600 rpm normal, 750 intermitant. (19.8 gal/min max). Here is the data sheet for it; http://hydraulicsint.com.au/specific...raulics-MR.pdf .
Firstfour quote a Speed range 10 - 1400 rpm, which is way higher than that data sheet. But it looks to be a conveyer belt drive, so it can probably take some hammer if you don't want to see thousands of hours work out of it
Data sheet also says 99,8 [cm3/rev] for the MR100.

20 GPM is impressive
Maybe 2500 rpm will be enough? I don't normaly go over 1500 rpm on winch & drive. Otherwise you start going down rather than forward
Which is the US spec motor?

Never mind, the specs on the US 10.5K winch motor is 17.9ci or 293 cc. This puts it somewhere between the MR250 and MR315 on those charts.

Specifications:
Part Number: 70-50050C
Rated Line Pull (single line): 10,500 lbs.@1500 PSI
Gear Train: Planetary
Gear Ratio: 6:1 (low gear), 1:1 (high gear)
Motor: 18 C.I. Hydraulic
Cable: 3/8" x 100' (14,400 nominal)
Drum Size Diameter: 2.5" (6.4cm)
Drum Size Length: 9" (23cm)
Total Weight: 88 lbs.
Bolt Pattern: 10" x 4.5" (4 bolts, 3/8")

Last edited by ohiobenz; 03-29-2012 at 11:52 AM.
ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 11:25 AM   #40 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Member # 153343
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Posts: 104
"What does a saley winch cost and where can you get one? What GPM pump and what PSI is required? "

I think John Sales works on a sort of 'right of passage'. If you can find him, you clearly want one of his winches
Best place to start would 'Devon 4x4' forum I think. I hope its okay to mention other forums? He's a decent bloke and runs a rear engined full independant truck with Rakeway hubs. It's my dream car !

I don't know much flow it needs. I know mitsimog runs a boost valve so I guess he runs 2500 psi with a step up to 3000psi. The pump didn't look that different in size to mine.
Teamidris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 11:49 AM   #41 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Member # 153343
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Posts: 104
I can't find a spec for the standard motor US or otherwise?
And I can't see why the standard milemarker motor claims over twice the flow of the higher spec TypeR, but it does seem to be the flow listed on a web site "Motor: 9k: 14 cubic inch 10.5k: 17.9 cubic inch, 12k: 19.5 cubic inch".

I must be thinking wrong somwhere?
Teamidris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:48 PM   #42 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohiobenz View Post

...the specs on the US 10.5K winch motor is 17.9ci or 293 cc. This puts it somewhere between the MR250 and MR315 on those charts.

Specifications:
Part Number: 70-50050C
Rated Line Pull (single line): 10,500 lbs.@1500 PSI
Gear Train: Planetary
Gear Ratio: 6:1 (low gear), 1:1 (high gear)
Motor: 18 C.I. Hydraulic
Cable: 3/8" x 100' (14,400 nominal)
Drum Size Diameter: 2.5" (6.4cm)
Drum Size Length: 9" (23cm)
Total Weight: 88 lbs.
Bolt Pattern: 10" x 4.5" (4 bolts, 3/8")
So with the engine at 2500rpm the first layer on the drum will pull @ 112fpm in high and 18fpm in low..... and have around 17,500lbs of pull...

That is if you hold the manual valve wide open... The nice part is that you can throttle that speed when you use a manual valve which you cant with a solenoid valve.

Since the Muncie pump I got is capable of 3500psi, and I am reducing it down with the pressure reducing bypass valve, I dont see holding the 2500psi at the motor as a problem...

So that raises the question of what happens when you are REALLY stuck? Should I plan to go to 20K line? At what point will the hydraulic motor simply stall, planetary gears snap, winch mounting bolts shear???
ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 08:19 AM   #43 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15


US version MileMarker pump specs.

It looks like at 15GPM i am limited to a much lower PSI input?? I'm going to contact White and ask some questions....

Last edited by ohiobenz; 03-30-2012 at 08:23 AM.
ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 09:01 AM   #44 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
Just got off the phone with an engineer at White Hydraulics and we determined that the limiting factor of the motor is the splined shaft. There is an undercut in the shaft at the inboard end which limits the theoretical load capacity to 3800 in/lbs of torque.
Using the displacement of 18ci and that 3800 in/lbs of torque, the psi input limit is 1500psi. He did state that the actual capacity may be higher, but that is the safety number their company has determined.
So if you dont want to snap a shaft in the middle of a pull....... the pressure relief valve should be set at 1500 or thereabouts.
I'm not sure how to convert the motor's in/lbs or Nm of torque into winch capacity???
ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 10:55 AM   #45 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Member # 153343
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Posts: 104
That matches what I have been thinking today. If you put a standard milemarker on my truck you would have an 18,000lb winch, which would be bad. So the MR100 would be half of the flow per revolution of the standard motor to keep the same line pull with double the pressure. But twice as fast a drum speed for the same pump flow.

But the MR100 is a third of the flow? So has the typeR less real-life line pull?



Motor torque vs line pull is tricky because of the gear & bearing losses? Maybe 10% as a complete guess?

Last edited by Teamidris; 03-30-2012 at 11:01 AM.
Teamidris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 11:42 AM   #46 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
This is the typical R motor (UK) with 12.5cc/rev volume:

ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 11:28 AM   #47 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Member # 214719
Posts: 15
here is the pump info:

ohiobenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 05:00 PM   #48 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Member # 171102
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by spidr View Post
Damn. His winch is faster than his truck
top speed is just under 45kph, about 40feet per sec, not winching in deep bog - just gentle uphill slope.
NZ challenge rules make getting the auto braking working correctly the hardest part. can build one of these for not much more than a off the shelf comerciall one, and make the drum size to match your rope, we have about 70m of rope on winch.
NOBDY is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.