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Old 02-12-2011, 05:55 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Ecotec Tech & Questions

I just picked up a 2.2 NA (L61) for my jeep project and searching shows more unanswered questions than info combined with tons of unverified speculation.

There are some good threads hiding out there with lots of good tid bits of information, but like many unless your searching the whole site or google you don't trip on them.

My ultimate goal is to run the engine in my jeep and still pass an inspection. (Plug in OBDII style) I know there are stand alone harnesses but I'm also looking to be able to use the stock dash etc..

=============================
I'm editing this first post to save/collect all the PNs that work for my swap. Hopefully this will make it easier to duplicate...

R150 transmission, w/ early (small tip) AX15 input
--- 1986 3.0V6 trans

Solstice Bell Housing, PN# 89060089
--- 2005 Pontiac Solstice, 2.4

MA5/AR5 Input Retainer GM P/N #89048231


Pilot bearing # FC-65354
--- 1993 Ranger 2.3l pilot, +early small tip input jeeps. Can be ordered with outer sleeve from jeeps applications..

Input retainer seal in new retainer same as oem AX15 (BH2844E) / Cross ? 223253
---2002 Chevrolet Colorado 5 speed

Concentric Slave Cylinder - Rhynopac # S0536
--- 2004 Dodge Viper (NEW) this is ~1" taller than the previously used part#

Flywheel Interchange number = 409-01110
--- 2005 Saturn Vue Flywheel - (stock) Weights 21.5#
--- Flywheel casting GM# 90537277

Clutch Disk Sachs # BBD4198
--- 1982 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2.8L, 9 1/8" x 1 1/8" x 10T

Clutch Cover / Pressure Plate -Sachs # SC70305
--- 2004 SATURN VUE 2.2L 134cid L4 FI DOHC

Clutch Cover Bolts - ARP#642-1000
--- Clutch Cover bolts drilled/tapped to 3/8-16 x 1"

Flywheel bolts - 12pt ARP #209-2801

Updated Timing Chain Tensioner - ACDELCO Part # 12608580

Power Steering Pump Cam Drive 'HEX' GM#24572945


=============================
Still researching if an older 2.2/2200 vortec coil pack module can read/use the 6+1 crank sensor possibly add in a cam sensor.
[My solution ] Yes it can, basically using a 1995 PCM w/ s10 chip running 2 coil packs in waste spare mode. (more below)

Motor Mounts? What did you end up with ? Some links to sand rail sites but I have to join up to see them... Guess I'll join another forum to take a look... [ My Solution ] I made my own motor mounts using poly bushings.

headers? [ My Solution ] I'm running the stock manifold for now.

What about all these cooling hoses on the block? What can go or has to stay? [ My Solution ] using Mojave heater and using existing hoses.

Steering pump? Stock is on the back of the engine, i might can fit that.. BUT I saw a pic the solstice is running one on lower pass side. Makes it wider than before but its an option. [ My solution ] Im using a PSC CB pump.
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=============================
Documentation: Hmmm can't upload PDFs...

=============================


Links to my research....
Some general info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Fami...2FE-TEC_II#L61

http://prod.gm.gmgssm.com/experience...400_Marine.pdf

Swap info:

Ecotec AX15 swap info and pics..
/forum/general-4x4-discussion/949738-buggy-build-custom-creations.html

Bellhousing discussions:
/forum/suzuki/604219-ecotec-converisons.html

PSC steering pump bracket?
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/-PK120...-Pump-Kit.html
any DIY stuff???

Good info: (I think he has a build thread here somewhere?)
http://www.sisoffroad.com/forums/sho...?t=8922&page=2

Compression Sense Info:
http://www.flatrater.com/Friends/CS1/CompSense.htm

Older GM DIS info:
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_DIS.htm
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/...are_Manual.htm
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Last edited by yager; 11-04-2011 at 05:15 AM. Reason: consolodate PNs
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I have an older Eco that is running off of a GM TBI setup. It works great for us, good power, good tune-ability. It has an upgraded power steering pump running off of the cam, and I would keep it on the cam, never have to worry about a belt slipping!!

The TBI setup batchfires the stock injectors off the 2 TBI injector feeds, and the motor always ran well. I cant tell you anything about the mileage, but it never seemed to use excessive fuel at competition.

We beat the everliving shit out of our eco and it always came back asking for more.

The biggest pain we ran into was figuring out all the "stuff" associated with the motor. Lots of different years and models meant lots of searching for the right "bits", different throttle bodies, water inlets, all of that junk.

This is about the best picture I can find, but it makes a nice compact, light package.

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Old 02-12-2011, 08:56 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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what tranny are you guys running??

I'm building a buggy using the L61 to the AX-15. with a sky bell just wondering if you found an auto that bolts up.

As for me I'm running MSD distributor where the P/S pump goes and propane.
Then PSC has a pump that goes wher ethe A/C compressor goes.
But this wouldn't help you much.
You need to get a jeep older than 96 so you don't have OBDII crap to worry about emissions.
~Justin

ecotecforum.com has some good tech too.
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:19 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Gavan, good talking with you... I searched on Wayne's user id (upnover) and found a few pics of the front motor mount setup. That style will work really well with my wizbang frame setup in the front of my TJ. I still have part of the stock FWD mount on the block.

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I also figured out that I can easily install a TJ throttle body to the stock plastic intake with a simple adapter plate. The lower left hole will reuse the stock hole the others will fan out from there. The bolt holes don't overlap at all and there will be plenty of room for normal fasteners. This will simplify the sensor hook up so I'm 1 step closer to using the jeep computer. (Ill upload pics later)

Back out to the garage!

edit: no auto as I've been planning to run a stick from the start... I might know of a GM bell/adapter setup. I'll know more in a few days...
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by customcreationsllc View Post
what tranny are you guys running??

I'm building a buggy using the L61 to the AX-15. with a sky bell just wondering if you found an auto that bolts up.

As for me I'm running MSD distributor where the P/S pump goes and propane.
Then PSC has a pump that goes wher ethe A/C compressor goes.
But this wouldn't help you much.
You need to get a jeep older than 96 so you don't have OBDII crap to worry about emissions.
~Justin

ecotecforum.com has some good tech too.

If you have a bellhousing that can go from the L61 to the AX15, then it will also work with an AW4 since it has a removable bellhousing that has the same trans pattern as an AX5/15 or NV3550.

Only downside is the transmission is electronically controlled, you can make it work like "normal" with chrysler PCMs, covered in www.stu-offroad.com where there are multiple swaps in place of TJ 32RHs and NV3500s. But you could use one of the controllers from a vendor on here and you will have a manually shifted auto that will hold any gear you want, you can locka nd unlock the torque converter at will, etc etc.

I don't remember the company, but the vendor's name is something like R.desjardin or something IIRC? Do a search for AW4 shifter and you'll find it
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:53 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by flatlander757 View Post
If you have a bellhousing that can go from the L61 to the AX15, then it will also work with an AW4 since it has a removable bellhousing that has the same trans pattern as an AX5/15 or NV3550.
Man you got me all excited. I ran out to the garage to check I have 2 AW4s completely different bolt pattern.

I'm using the bell housing from the Saturn Sky which will bolt up the the Ecotec and bolt up the the AX-15.
The AX-15 jeep bell engine side is different the transmission side is the same.
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:05 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by customcreationsllc View Post
Man you got me all excited. I ran out to the garage to check I have 2 AW4s completely different bolt pattern.

I'm using the bell housing from the Saturn Sky which will bolt up the the Ecotec and bolt up the the AX-15.
The AX-15 jeep bell engine side is different the transmission side is the same.
No... you use the bellhousing from the Sky, it should bolt to the AW4.

edit: What is your AX15 out of? I was guessing Jeep... if GM has their own pattern then I don't know.
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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No... you use the bellhousing from the Sky, it should bolt to the AW4.

edit: What is your AX15 out of? I was guessing Jeep... if GM has their own pattern then I don't know.
its a jeep ax-15 and a jeep AW4
I'm not seeing how they can bolt up

The AW4 has a large round section in the center




the ax-15 is oblong shape
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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It's beena while since I read this... but this may help you:


http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/showthread.php?t=4740


I could have sworn that I remember AW4 bellhousings being identical to the NV3500


edit: I'm as confused as you are. I give up
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Old 02-12-2011, 01:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander757 View Post
It's beena while since I read this... but this may help you:


http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/showthread.php?t=4740


I could have sworn that I remember AW4 bellhousings being identical to the NV3500


edit: I'm as confused as you are. I give up
No, they don't. They cover which other aisin transmissions swap with the AW4 (toyotas & isuzus, which also allow GM), but they are completely different than the large aisin manual pattern.
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Old 02-12-2011, 01:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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No, they don't. They cover which other aisin transmissions swap with the AW4 (toyotas & isuzus, which also allow GM), but they are completely different than the large aisin manual pattern.
Yeah, I had the GM 60 degree pattern thing mixed up with that



Anyways, it looks like the 5L40 or 5L50 transmissions will be your best bet... same boat I'm in with trying to figure out stuff about the 3.6HF engine. I imagine a t-case adapter will be cheaper and easier to make at least...

http://www.compnine.com/index.php?t=...37174350&uid=1

You can take the tailhousing off and it appears you could bolt an AWD case from a Caddy SRX or CTS to it... I think you would need a custom adapter made for a normal t-case.
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:43 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Worked on a few things today..
1) Realized my L61 doesn't have the hex drive on the intake cam to drive the direct mount hex drive power steering pump so spent some time researching it. Almost about to give up figuring I'd need to do a cam swap... Then finally I found the answer..... and the hex drive part # Basically just need to machine the cam to press in the insert. I guess sometime they even spin free and your pump stops spinning.

GM Part# 24572945 price ~$5-$10
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My cam looks like this..
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2) Later 2007+ engines 2.2/2.4s added a longer exhaust cam mounting similar to the intake cam. They added a cam sensors on the end (see below). But after seeing the hex insert needed to be pressed in I got to thinking and saw this..

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It looks like this hole is in the perfect spot to drill into the valve train area and line up with the cam. If I make up a pressed on insert to extend the exhaust cam out a little and add a wheel i'm sure I can find a hall effect sensor to put in there. At that point you could add any type of trigger wheel you wanted to to fit your computer.
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:58 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Still trying got piece together what years had what etc... Later years had VVT (variable valve timing) and needed to better manage the timing on each shaft.. Plus they dumped the compression sense technology. I saw this pic (below) and sorta put me on the path to figuring out a possibly way to fit something on the existing L61 head under the valve cover.

Few other pics, looks like later heads dropped the external drive all together you can see the one hole for the ring. Also research shows those rings press on and can be removed. They have to be aligned properly but I don't recall what position. Possibly a simple adapter for those wanting to run the stock wheel or a common style for other common wheel patterns......

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Old 02-21-2011, 07:10 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Working on a similer project but daul toy cases. Does any one have pic of PSC power steering pump mounted on a ecotec or any other aftermarket power steering pump. right now i have the sky bracket and pump. Make engine a little wide. Ecotec LE5
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:46 AM   #16 (permalink)
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PSC sells one that goes in place of the AC compressor.
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/-PK120...-Pump-Kit.html

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Old 02-21-2011, 08:35 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Sorry I have this pic Need the psc mounted on engine. To see how much bigger it is compared to AC unit.
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Old 02-22-2011, 11:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I picked up a former comp buggy (remarkably similar to the one pictured above ) to barrow some parts from as it makes its way to the new owner in TX. I'm keeping the engine and stuff. It has a PSC pump on it. Its definitely NOT a TC pump its the larger CB ? style. I'll snap a few pics of it both on and off the block.

The motor I have has seen a hard life. I was able to get it running to confirm the PCM and fuel injection stuff was still good so I had a good starting point to swap that stuff into my TJ. But I'll be using the motor as a test mule for fitment and stuff. The motor was froze with water in it, so I'm investigating possible leak points/core plugs etc..

anyway.... the pump has the hex shaft on it and but otherwise was normal. I had an old caviler pump from a 2002 car w/ a 2200 vortex engine and the pumps were identical minus the input shaft and plastic tank on the later.

I ordered a chip adapter so I can read the PCM Prom in my autoprom. Its got an aftermarket adapter and chip that the chip vendor soldered in there. So with the adapter I can read it cleanly. Currently the tune has all the extra junk removed. N) O2, knock, etc.. Its just running a 7427 PCM running a GM DIS ignition module. The chip is labeled BHFL but the $0D bins/code base I found has the BHFM bin with covers a 1994 S10 LN2/2.2L 4cyl MPFI, MAN 5speed, BACK PRESS EGR (non linier) w/ DIS. Basically more/less what you need to run the ecotec w/ OBD1 PCM.

The TB I have appears to be off a 2000+ ish cavalier push in MAP sensor and the others mounted to the TB. The injection rail looks to be adapted from the earlier 2200 engine. But it worked so I'm not messing with it now.

Anyone know which direction the water flow is on these engines? I'm looking to reroute the rear goose neck water outlet to a more desirable location.

I'll post the pump picks later.
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Jeep TJ Build Up - Ecotec, Toy axles etc..
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Stroke - Coumadin(warfarin) - INR - Heart Valve - Ask me (true story)
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Old 02-22-2011, 04:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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the pics will be helpful.
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Old 02-22-2011, 07:23 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Not sure exactly what your looking to see. Its a PSC pump bolted to the head.


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Last two are on my engine, test fitting. It's actually upside down and not fully seated in by ~1/2" as this motor doesn't have the hex insert in the cam (yet)
.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:34 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Solstice bellhousing ordered. Picked up a R150 transmission today. I'm going the R150 route so I can utilize the toy gear drive tcase vs the AX15 path.

In reviewing the bell housing pics in the other thread. (posted here also) The ecotec bell housing is ~3/4" taller than the toyota bell housing. Rather than swap in the AX15 input to match the taller/deeper bellhousing I think I can shave 1/4" off the front and rear face of the ecotec bell. The casting is very thick on both sides. I'll get more precise measurements when I get the thing and definitely hold off on any actual modifications until I get the flywheel and clutch stuff sorted out as there may be some gains there also.

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Old 03-03-2011, 07:37 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I need to put the MSD distributor where the P/S pump goes on the cam shaft. So I'm going to use the PSC pump that goes where the A/C went.

I just got the GM Hex adapter in the mail I just need to machine the came to press it in. I hope have time to work on mine this weekend but time has been tight lately.

As for the clutch It might be better to take 1/8" off of each side.
The AX-15 is actually 1/4" longer than the Sky bell my first plan was to install a 1/8" plate on each side so the alignment pins still reach but after bolting it up it looks like it might work without the spacer. Granted I have run it yet.

Are the R150 Toyota transmission internal slave? you might need to get the cover from a AX-15 internal slave they should bolt right on.
I might have a spare that I bought when I was going to use the later AX-15 but the pilot bearing was to large for the Ecotec Crank. I had to go with the older version of the AX-15

What is the size of the R150 pilot bearing?

I used summitracing to find a clutch by searching spline and diameter. The rest I hope would fit. There are some companies that make custom clutches.
So far I'm using the stock Vue PRESSURE plate, the Ion PRESSURE plate was twice as much I don't know the difference is? If you find out I would like to know.

~Justin
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Last edited by customcreationsllc; 03-03-2011 at 05:27 PM. Reason: Meant Pressure Plate not Flex Plate
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Old 03-03-2011, 05:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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R150 Pilot bearing =
ID = 0.4724 in ( 12mm )
OD = 1.2598 in. ( 32 mm)
W = 0.3937 in ( 10mm )

I'm sure I can find a metric bearing to fit.

Do you have a part# for the flywheel?
Can you snap a pic of the flywheel and a measurement of the bolt circle. I think the difference is in weight. I see a listing for the 2002 cavilier that lists the older 2200 SOHC engine flywheel for the L61 DOHC I'm wondering if that will in fact fit and work with the starter ? (possibly that is a typo) otherwise thats a $40 flywheel.

The R150 is external slave on right (passenger) side. I will swap in the AX15 internal or see what else works/fits when I get the stuff here..

For now I need to bolt the stuff together so i can have the driveline and make mounts. Realy slowing me down now..


Note: You keep posting flexplate but i'm sure you mean flywheel. I just want to keep the termonolgy correct for those searching.
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:09 PM   #24 (permalink)
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sorry meant pressure plate not flex plate.
I'll try to get pictures saturday.

I went with the one from the Vue cheaper than the Ion looks a little different but without seeing them I couldn't tell you the difference I tried talking to the salesman but he didn't know either.

Vue
http://www.thmotorsports.com/exedy_c.../i-393649.aspx


Ion
http://www.thmotorsports.com/exedy_c.../i-393757.aspx


also a list of all the cars with the same flywheels.
I just looked up the buyers guide not saying there aren't other flywheels that will work but I know these will for me mine was from a 04 Ion.
I got mine from the junk yard for $40

Make Model Engine Year(s)
Chevrolet Cobalt 2.2 L 134 CID L4 DOHC 16V ECOTEC 2005 - 2009
Chevrolet Cobalt 2.4 L 2384 CC L4 DOHC 16V ECOTEC 2006 - 2008
Chevrolet HHR 2.2 L 134 CID L4 DOHC 16V ECOTEC 2008 - 2010
Chevrolet HHR 2.4 L 2384 CC L4 DOHC 16V ECOTEC 2008 - 2010
Chevrolet HHR 2006 - 2007
Pontiac G5 2007 - 2009
Pontiac Pursuit 2005 - 2006
Pontiac Solstice 2.4 L 2384 CC L4 DOHC 16V ECOTEC 2007 - 2009
Pontiac Solstice 2006 - 2006
Saturn Ion 2.2 L 134 CID L4 DOHC 2004 - 2007
Saturn Ion 2.4 L 2376 CC L4 DOHC VVT 2006 - 2007
Saturn Ion 2003 - 2003
Saturn L100 2001 - 2002
Saturn L200 2001 - 2003
Saturn LS 2.2 L 134 CID L4 DOHC 2000 - 2000
Saturn LS1 2000 - 2000
Saturn LW1 2000 - 2000
Saturn LW200 2001 - 2003
Saturn Sky 2.4 L 2384 CC L4 DOHC 16V ECOTEC 2007 - 2009
Saturn VUE 2.2 L 134 CID L4 DOHC 2002 - 2005
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:50 AM   #25 (permalink)
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My bellhousing will be here today.
I ordered a used flywheel off ebay for $35 (shipped) to fit a 2003 ION. No particular reason for that one other than they had a picture of the face and it was flat vs stepped down. Most of the research I've done/found shows only 3 flywheel types. 2 w/ 6 bolts 1 w/ 8 holes. Other than a huge list of applications etc. No one seems to have the actually part or casting number.. I'm sure 2 years from now all the details will be out and the parts swapping will be easier. I'm just not interested to buy one of each to figure it out.. So any junk yard rats feel free to post a pic or share what you've stumbled on in your travels.

Clean up my BS to post some facts below..
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Last edited by yager; 03-08-2011 at 06:57 PM.
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