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Old 08-06-2011, 10:10 PM   #26 (permalink)
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The front h1 diff is not centered (centering kit available)
They are not cheap
They are wide
The cvs are small and weak
What about that 9.75 ford ifs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddylee82 View Post
Is the HMMWV front diff not centered? I've been trying to find more info on them.

So far I've got differential ratios: 2.56:1, 2.73:1, 3.08:1 (Torsen LSD or Locker). I'm not concerned about the portal boxes, but like the high ratio the diff provides, especially for a FWD/Transaxle powered buggy.

Anyone have any other info/specs on H1 differentials? Are they Aluminum? Is the front reverse cut or reverse rotation? Other stuff I'd like to know are dimensions and weight of the center diff.

I've looked around some, but all that I've found seem to be selling as though they were 14 karat. Are there pallets of these available in some depot, like there are the wheels? If so where?



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Old 08-07-2011, 11:31 AM   #27 (permalink)
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not sure if this helps, but 4 wheel & off-road built an '11 F150 w/ IFS for this years ultimate adventure, and they have an article up on the front end work they did(custom D60 chunk, custom half shafts, custom knuckles)...
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/ultimat...t_4/index.html
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
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well, i took some pics, just looked at them, came out blurry and dark. the 9.75" is 12" from seal to seal on the carrier, 17" from pinion flange to diff cover, uses tri lobe plundging cv inners, and has cast in mounts for mounting. i will see if i can get some decent pics next time..
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:33 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I have been looking into using the Expedition IRS center section. the axles slide into the case so I was going to get stub shafts made so you could bolt a 934 or 30 series to the stub shaft. This will allow for a fairly small center section and give more room for longer half shafts. I was then considering using the knuckle/hub assembly from the new F150 I believe this is the same hub set up as the raptor. I would have to get custom shafts made and build my own A-arms. this would be a budget set up that I think would hold up to most wheeling situations. obviously alot of Rock assualts may be a different story. but not sure on how it would do there.
Biggest questions are,
1. Im not sure if reverse cut gears are availible for the IRS center section?
2.Im not sure if the stock F-150hub assembly will be enough. what are your thoughts on using the stock F150 hub assembly?
I magine you could upgrade the hub stub shaft to a 35 spline?
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:44 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trailrail302 View Post
Biggest questions are,
1. Im not sure if reverse cut gears are availible for the IRS center section?
2.Im not sure if the stock F-150hub assembly will be enough. what are your thoughts on using the stock F150 hub assembly?
3.I magine you could upgrade the hub stub shaft to a 35 spline?


#1: Reverse cut gears are for a high pinion. The rear IRS is a low pinion.

#2: Not enough info on your application. It will come down to Engine, Vehicle weight, Tire size, Usage.

#3: Not easily, but yes it could be done.
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:52 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
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#1: Reverse cut gears are for a high pinion. The rear IRS is a low pinion.

#2: Not enough info on your application. It will come down to Engine, Vehicle weight, Tire size, Usage.

#3: Not easily, but yes it could be done.


vehicle would be a EB tube chassis with bronco skins. estimated weight 3800-4000#

37" tires. possible 39.5 but most likely 37"

Engine would be either a 351 stroker or a new 5.0 depending on budget. estimate 400 HP +/-

Mostly looking for a dune go fast rig but something I can still get into the rocks with . not looking for any serious rock crawling out of it. I had a crawler chassis before and looking to step into the world of going a little faster....lol

Propably run some trec races with it also.
I've thought about building my own knuckles but Im trying to keep the price resonable. If not I will just put a Dana 60 in. I allready have a 60 for it. just really would like to try and get IFS to work on more of a budget basis.

Last edited by trailrail302; 12-09-2011 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:23 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trailrail302 View Post
I have been looking into using the Expedition IRS center section. the axles slide into the case so I was going to get stub shafts made so you could bolt a 934 or 30 series to the stub shaft. This will allow for a fairly small center section and give more room for longer half shafts. I was then considering using the knuckle/hub assembly from the new F150 I believe this is the same hub set up as the raptor. I would have to get custom shafts made and build my own A-arms. this would be a budget set up that I think would hold up to most wheeling situations.
I'm loving the tech, and have been thinking about this type of thing for a while,
finding a good thin but strong center section to mate to shafts like the 934s, and building out from there.

Even if you had to make custom inner stub shafts to bolt up to 934 joints.
Then you could find a good strong hub and outer stub shaft to accept 934 or equivalent joints, and have the connecting shafts made or purchased.

Id say that would make a prty bomb ifs set up for not a rediculous amount of money, assuming the center section would work, and you make you own A-arms.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:49 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trailrail302 View Post
vehicle would be a EB tube chassis with bronco skins. estimated weight 3800-4000#

37" tires. possible 39.5 but most likely 37"

Engine would be either a 351 stroker or a new 5.0 depending on budget. estimate 400 HP +/-

Mostly looking for a dune go fast rig but something I can still get into the rocks with . not looking for any serious rock crawling out of it. I had a crawler chassis before and looking to step into the world of going a little faster....lol

When it comes to sizing differentials I look at it like the old 3 strikes rule: weight, tire size & HP.

Your specs:
Weight= 4,000-ish

Tire size= 37s to 39s

HP= 350-450 depending on your stroker build.

With your 8.8 you can get by with two of those, I doubt it will last long with all three of those and then add in the possible competition use and you'll be hurting bad. Better to build a 9" and be done with it.

That said, until a couple people start thrashing on the 8.8 IRS center chunk, we don't know if it will hold any better than the standard 8.8 live axle. I don't see why it would, but you may get lucky.


Quote:
I've thought about building my own knuckles but Im trying to keep the price resonable. If not I will just put a Dana 60 in. I allready have a 60 for it. just really would like to try and get IFS to work on more of a budget basis.

IFS is still not yet mainstream, so things are going to be expensive. When Dana 60s started to be the axle to run, they were quite expensive to build. As more manufacturers started building aftermarket parts for them, prices started dropping. We'll see the same thing for IFS.

The big equalizer for the low buck boys in building D60s was a junkyard D60 and with a few upgrades you could run a pretty big tire and thump on it hard. Unfortunately there is not many big axle IFS/IRS diffs to look at.

Edit: Now that I've typed that all out I just remembered that the 1 ton GM pick-ups use the 9.25" 14 bolt in the front. There is the big junkyard IFS center for those wanting to run big tires, HP, weight etc. Don't know where the limits are on that center yet, but it should be fairly decent.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:18 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Most of the early Pro4 trucks were running HD2500 front diffs, and they were getting abut 18" of travel and holding up pretty well. There is some good tech on RDC about them.
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Old 12-24-2011, 11:12 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Do you know in what years these big 1-ton IFS diffs were used?
Any more specs on them?
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:59 PM   #36 (permalink)
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All 1 ton & HD 3/4 ton Chevy & GMC trucks from 1988 up.

Specs:
9.25" AAM - basically the same as the semi-float c-clip 14 bolt found in the back of standard 3/4 ton GM trucks.

1.37" - 33 spline shaft.
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:05 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:37 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Huh? Aluminum for the win on the weight savings.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:14 PM   #39 (permalink)
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here is a few threads concerning the center sections:

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/arc.../t-91061.html?

\/this is a bit of a read, but it gets better. Tech Tim actually was involved in this thread years ago.

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/arc...p/t-42924.html
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:42 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I finally got delivery of my IRS quick change diff that may be of interest. I am not sure this is for real hard core builds but one has been living in Roosterbooster built 4seat, jumping Sand car with 700+ Hp for a few years. It will allow me to run near 18"+ of articulation in a JK width with no rear steer, etc. etc. The key is the narrow width between CV flanges... = 8"

(In contrast, centers that are being discussed run from 11" to 15" flange-to-flange. At the half shaft lengths we are talking about in IRS, for every inch you can add to them you get 2"+ more articulation. Huge. IFS is not so much because of shorter shafts to the knuckles. IRS systems outboard the outer CV's about 3"+ on 5"+ offset wheels)

B&J Engineering, Kingman, AZ 928-681-4001 .....He does have to get a Mill going. $6K+

Based on 10" Quick Change Gear.
Castings are special for this one application. Thick and Strong.
934.5 CV's , Gear Posi, 100's of QC ratios, top or bottom pinion, 1350 yoke.
21 3/4" long, 11" tall, 8" wide, pinion offset is 3 1/2", weight 115lbs of 300m.
Input shaft is 1" dia "torsion bar". Future builds will have double lip CV seals.

We did have a discussion about serious large tire, KOH builds with size 30 CV's. Nate would prefer to cast up a 14" with 4" offset, but would require multiple supporters. What is being used in class 1?

(The photo angle makes the scale look short as it was in the "background". Avitar has been IRS since '66. Parts for this IRS is estimated at $15K + fab.)
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:00 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Is it any cheaper if the whole f'in thing isn't polished?

Ben, stop polishing everything, and lets go wheelin!

BTW, if my fuel pump done yet?


Looks bitchin.... let go wheelin. wanna prerun koh with me?
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:38 PM   #42 (permalink)
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It's just a matter of time before someone offers a complete ifs assembly ready to go. Just like all the great solid axle options out there. I wouldn't expect it to be much less than $10,000. Which is about what it costs to integrate a complete front solid axle
What would you all think about a knockdown kit, with all of the difficult Engineering done for you?
All you have to do is source a few wrecking yard parts and you have a front end that can take around 400Flbs of torque "stock" and a good bit more with a ARB \ Zip locker installed?

Just follow the install instructions, and TIG along the dotted lines?
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Old 01-09-2012, 01:20 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Kind of like the one in the new ASR car?
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:38 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Kind of like the one in the new ASR car?
I think the kit ASR is using is quite spendy

Watching this build.. and a interesting choice for a diff. I don't think I have seen one used before.

Keep plugging along.. it's very creative.
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:36 PM   #45 (permalink)
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There are lots of companies making IFS kits like that for 2WD trucks. Seems inevitable that a wider selection of 4WD kits will follow.
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:49 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Since I got my QC IRS center and am again considering IFS, I thought I would list some others that are out there being built and used.

Originally I was only interested in upgrading a rear IRS that is now necessary due to larger tires, HP, and articulation. At one time my CJ2A had a IFS, but was removed quickly when it became apparent that there are tradeoffs in IFS articulation vs steering angle. You will quickly learn that when tuning sharply, and climbing over a rock, the Joints can bind and spin the steering wheel out of your hands to allow articulation. All our effort was with U Joints which are only good to about 18- 24 degrees of angled articulation. Today CV's can rotate to 38-45', but the Dez racers have landed upon 32' as about max for strength and longevity due to heat.

To stay within the 32' envelope the name of the game is to maximize the half shaft length, attempt a useful articulation, and still have enough turning at full droop or compression. To gain that length you try to minimize the centers flange-to-flange dimension and maximize the wheel track width and wheel offset. There are compromises and there are $$$$.

Disclaimer: I am no expert! I quickly lost talent when helping Jason S get started designing a IFS. I was looking at doing one for myself and thought this would be a good education. It was! I got to talk with most of the current players in racing, fabrication, and utilized bits of info on RaceDezert and Pirate. Choosing a center and shaft length is just the beginning of a thousand other questions related to steering, camber, castor, tilt, kick, squat, scrub, ackerman, etc., etc. At least the parts we can see...so here are some of the centers. The idea is to make the center as narrow as possible to lengthen the half-shaft to gain steering with reasonable articulation. The CV at risk is at the wheel pivot axis.

Narrowed Model 44 center with wheel bearings, shorter shafts, and U-Joints. 20.5" joint-CL/J-joint-CL. Pinion offset is 1". Applied to Corvette swinging arms gives about 8" of IRS articulation before bind. No turning at 4" droop. Track probably about 70". Cheap wrecking yard.

81-83 Corvette Model 44 Aluminum center section. Set up for U-joints 15" J-CL/J-CL. If you made CV flanges it would be close to 13.5" I have built two jeep IRS' with this center, with Detroits, and lived 20+ years with 33" tires and 4-500HP. We are getting close to 12" IRS before bind.
Track probably 70" Pinion offset 1". (I chose to abandon this as tire diameter and articulation has increased. Need one?)

Model 60. There has been some talk about making one, and may even be available. It is possible that flange to flange might be only 1" wider than a Model 44, in a special designed case. (14.5" flange/flange) New build $$. A very special build could put it to 11" F/F (Weismann?)

8.8 Ford. Raptor, F150, Thunderbird. Several have modified this center to handle 934.5 and 30 series CV's. Most don't think they will hold up to racing but might recreationally. These are also in the area of 14" F/F. Hard to tell about $. Stub shafts can reach $1,200.

Toyota IFS center section..?? John Moseley has built a buggy with these front and rear. www.Mosebilt.net

9" Ford (Spidertrax, Currie, ProAM, Summit Machine, and others). This is a common center in KOH cars in 934.5 and 30 series CV's.. Currie is reportedly 14.5" flange to flange, Summit Machine may be 12-13" range. Pinion offset = 1.47" Some TT's are reporting 18" travel at a wider 85"+ track width. No reports on steering angles? Some are talking 18" at KOH, but some have been somewhat measured/limited to closer to 14" articulation. No reports on actual steering angle. $4K complete seems reasonable.

Hollinger Engineering, Australia has shown a special built 9" Ford geared, custom aluminum case at SEMA that had 11" F/F. The bearing adjusters were on the outside of the case. $30k was the price, but wouldn't sell because "You Dez blokes play too rough."

Chevy HD2500 front diff. Unbolt the long side axle housing from the center section. Used in tractor pulling with minimal articulation and some early Pro4 with 18" travel. These look wide F/F. ??**"About 12" flange to flange" Mosebilt, Thread 51, 53**

10.5" Quick Change (B&J Engineering, Kingman,AZ. and another possibility "John") Detailed in above thread. 8" F/F 934.5. Zero pinion offset. $6K+.

Weismann Marine, LLC transmission products. They are familiar to many in a lot of high end racing. Everything is basically special built out of billet. Engineering is like nothing in normal automotive. They have built several IFS centers. A few years ago they built a center for the Wanzek Trophy truck. The Flange separation looked to be about 8" F/F. and reportedly has 20" travel in a 92" track. On another build they provided a center with 2" separation (WDD). At SEMA this year they showed a "WLR" diff for military vehicles where the CV's are back-to-back inside the case with a posi. Another interesting item on this one is a "pinion offset" of about 8" which would get you around a pan in a front motor build. http://www.weismann.net for some neat stuff. Don't be surprised at $30k also.

Bottom Line: For every inch you add or subtract from a shaft CVCL/CVCL you add or subtract about 1" of articulation (32 degrees' max, 22" shaft CL/CL.) You may want to compromise articulation for turning. I am not sure what 1" would add to the steering angle (Tim and Dallas might help out here). Then again, you might stretch your luck toward 38' in steering. Easy on the throttle at those angles...

I'll be glad to edit as more information is known.
There has to be more. And...How much money do you want to spend?

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Old 01-18-2012, 03:11 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I think the kit ASR is using is quite spendy

The price between a well built IFS and a junkyard IFS is just a large as the performance difference between a junkyard IFS and a well built IFS system.

Either you use some factory diff, which has very little support, and is untested; or you run a 9" with a fabricated housing. With a 9" you have tons of options for gearing, and lockers/spools, and then if you have the $$$ you can make it a 10" for added strength.

As far as CV's, run 934's instead of 30 series, which can be easily done on any of the kits. But then again, would you pay more not to break, so you can finish the race, so you can it back to camp that day??? So what you really are paying for is strength and reliability.

I think hubs is a huge place to save money, but then again you will be compromising. The reason people are making their own hubs(Spidertrax & Kirby) is because they can make them as small as possible to gain more travel/steering.

As for steering, you could try to run a ram, or a complex system that allows you to use a steering box, but in the end have you saved money and time over a rack & pinion, which are commonly used and have been proven to work great??

It really becomes a question of what you want to do. If you are happy with 12"-14" of travel and only plan on running trails/having fun then you could build a junkyard IFS system and save money. However, if you want to run with the big dogs, WIN Ultra 4 races, be as fast as possible AND not break then you have no choice other than running the top of the line components.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:27 PM   #48 (permalink)
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The Ford Escape 4x4s rear axle looks like a Dana 44 variant and is independent.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:58 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISDTBower View Post
I finally got delivery of my IRS quick change diff that may be of interest. I am not sure this is for real hard core builds but one has been living in Roosterbooster built 4seat, jumping Sand car with 700+ Hp for a few years. It will allow me to run near 18"+ of articulation in a JK width with no rear steer, etc. etc. The key is the narrow width between CV flanges... = 8"

(In contrast, centers that are being discussed run from 11" to 15" flange-to-flange. At the half shaft lengths we are talking about in IRS, for every inch you can add to them you get 2"+ more articulation. Huge. IFS is not so much because of shorter shafts to the knuckles. IRS systems outboard the outer CV's about 3"+ on 5"+ offset wheels)

B&J Engineering, Kingman, AZ 928-681-4001 .....He does have to get a Mill going. $6K+

Based on 10" Quick Change Gear.
Castings are special for this one application. Thick and Strong.
934.5 CV's , Gear Posi, 100's of QC ratios, top or bottom pinion, 1350 yoke.
21 3/4" long, 11" tall, 8" wide, pinion offset is 3 1/2", weight 115lbs of 300m.
Input shaft is 1" dia "torsion bar". Future builds will have double lip CV seals.

We did have a discussion about serious large tire, KOH builds with size 30 CV's. Nate would prefer to cast up a 14" with 4" offset, but would require multiple supporters. What is being used in class 1?

(The photo angle makes the scale look short as it was in the "background". Avitar has been IRS since '66. Parts for this IRS is estimated at $15K + fab.)

Funny a QC made the cut.....I have thought long and hard about it, the problem is the strength of the ring gear right????

Here's what I run in a non-4x4 and what the Mickey Thompson Challenger ran 4 of at Bonneville, Cyclone's. I wouldnt be scared of big HP in them, but I am scared of shock loading them. Thoughts?



I have the polish on lock as well

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Old 01-18-2012, 08:13 PM   #50 (permalink)
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"Funny a QC made the cut.....I have thought long and hard about it, the problem is the strength of the ring gear right????"

Yes, when you get rid of the deep bells to make it narrow the ring gear wants to separate from the pinion. Aside from a snubber, the side plates are highly strengthened. They may be over 1 "thick and also gusseted. In fact, the center is exceptionally rigidized. You would not be holding it so easily in the photo. It was sand drag/play purpose built. Notice the 115lbs built.

One has lived in a 4 seat sand car with a very spirited driver and 800hp. He is a fourm member if he wants to chime in. He is very familiar with IRS and 4wd IFS and sold me on it.

Time will tell. For high level KOH with 30 series CV's Nate (B&J) would probably prefer to build for a 14". Packaging one of these into a IFS might be tricky. You can have high or low pinion but there is no offset. Depends what you are doing... An option.
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