poll: 4Mogger: Honorable soldier or piece of shit?

[DRM]

Originally Posted by cdarthvader

Oh i have one question. Where you ever in the military DRM?

Nope.

[pike2350]

Originally Posted by rockota

But you don't trust him, because you don't believe what he believes. Dude, this isn't a difficult logic issue.

I can't get through the whole thread...it is too long, and too much of both Rockota and Doc/Infantry going back and forth.

However, this comment made me think. Nowhere did I read (up until this point) that Doc wouldn't trust Mogger, merely that he thought less of him. I am sure that there are many instances in the military where, although people don't like each other(think they are better then someone else) they still trust and rely on them to get the job done.

The problem arises in now knowing that Mogger would/could actually cause the unit harm because of his belief. Doc is thinking in terms of the military unit/squad/whatever...whereas Rockota seems to be thinking in individually. If Doc and Mogger were in the same unit, Doc may very well trust that Mogger would do the job, but be less comforted to know that Mogger could leave another mand behind/not help/show distrust in another member of the unit based on his believes.

Now, I can see both sides, and although I don't agree with Mogger on not putting those beliefs aside, I can see why he would have them(only towards Muslims anyway) It appears that it is tough to trust people these days. A woman with a child(who in the past would have been trusted to walk freely and closely to soldiers) no longer has the same trust they did before because, the enemy has shown that it has no scrouples(sp?) regarding warfare. They will use any and all means to hurt the US. This may include any number of things...including dressing up as a US serviceman. I highly doubt it has happened, and even if it had....it isn't Muslims that are doing it, but merely Radicals. I know that is how the military should act, and I think for the most part they do. However, I can see why(after witnessing the enemies tactics) some would be less trusting.

Steve

[4Mogger]

An interesting read:
http://www.isgr.org/discus/messages/...tml?1110509306

[cdarthvader]

Originally Posted by DRM

Nope.

hhmmm interesting. On one hand i can see where 4mogger is comming from. I don't trust people untill they give me a reason to trust them, but i'm also not in the military. However having spoken to some friends who are in the military who are home for christmas this week, I can see were Doc is coming from also. The only thing i have to add is a couple more questions.

4mogger...Would you still have a trust issue if say an african american were fighting with you and we were fighting against africans? Say one of them put a grenade in a tent and killed 10, 20, 100 soldiers?

Doc...Say a muslims brother *like actual blood, kinfolk type thing* and father both have killed American soldiers yet this brother joined the US military. Would you still trust him? Givin how he was raised and that his family has already attacked the US?

[usmcdoc14]

Originally Posted by 4Mogger

An interesting read:
http://www.isgr.org/discus/messages/...tml?1110509306

trying to justify your bigotry ? trying to justify your misstrust of Muslim military?

becase you last 2 posts sure as fuck look that way


No matter how you justify it, its still wrong and its still unprofessional and you need to un-fuck yourself before your shit affects someone.


oh, and keep trying to find another Muslim Military member who CAUSED HARM to another soldier in the name of thier religion. I still only found 1

[4Mogger]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
================================================== ========
Dr. `Abdul-Fatah Idrees, Professor of Comparative Fiqh at Al-Azhar and United Arab Emirates Universities, states the following:

“Allah Almighty prohibited cooperation in committing sins or oppressing others. Allah Almighty says: “But help ye one another unto righteousness and pious duty. Help not one another unto sin and transgression.” (Al-Ma’idah: 2)

The aim behind the tactics of the invading alliance is not to establish democracy in Iraq as they claim, but to annihilate and exterminate the Iraqi people who have committed no fault but being Muslims, testifying that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. The vicious schemes of these invaders are to misappropriate the wealth of the Muslim World. This becomes clear when we notice their cooperation to fight against Muslims, disregarding any outcomes of the war they launch.

Therefore, those who help the invaders in their war against Muslims are staining their hands with the blood of Muslim brothers, that is to say, they help in killing their brothers by the armies of the enemy that terrorize the secure people and disturb their normal course of life.

Allah Almighty has forbidden mutual help in the course of sins and transgression. So whoever cooperates with those aggressive transgressors is, in fact, committing a grave sin. Not only that, but he who lends them any form of support in the aggression is befriending them, and whoever befriends a kafir (disbeliever) at the expense of his Muslim brothers is similar to the kafir he befriends.”

[usmcdoc14]

Originally Posted by cdarthvader

Doc...Say a muslims brother *like actual blood, kinfolk type thing* and father both have killed American soldiers yet this brother joined the US military. Would you still trust him? Givin how he was raised and that his family has already attacked the US?

yes untill proven by him otherwise. To do anything other would be a dishonor to him and place misstrust between us. This would impair moral, unit cohisiveness, and mission acomplishement.

It would also be unprofessional and being a bigot

[HighToy]

Originally Posted by 4Mogger

My service to God comes before my service to country. I expect no less from a devout Muslim.

I find this scary for some reason.

My service to Santa Clause comes before my service to my brother.

[geberhard]

LOL, the banner ad for this thread is for a Wicca "Willow's Place" to bring up some funny to the thread

http://www.willowsplace.com/shop/?ad...leGreenBanner1

[4Mogger]

Originally Posted by HighToy

I find this scary for some reason.

My service to Santa Clause comes before my service to my brother.

It is called a World View and clearly you are without one. My world view allows me to evaluate any situation wherein I find myself. A moral compass whereby I can evaluate the validity of an order. Fortunately our US Constitution is founded upon the same principles so I have few worries.

[4Mogger]

Originally Posted by geberhard

LOL, the banner ad for this thread is for a Wicca "Willow's Place" to bring up some funny to the thread

http://www.willowsplace.com/shop/?ad...leGreenBanner1

Handy link if you are in the market for some "magically-charged candles or bejeweled cauldrons."

Hence the reason I do not consider a Wiccan to be a threat to national security.

[HighToy]

Originally Posted by 4Mogger

It is called a World View and clearly you are without one. My world view allows me to evaluate any situation wherein I find myself. A moral compass whereby I can evaluate the validity of an order. Fortunately our US Constitution is founded upon the same principles so I have few worries.

A "world view" as you call it wouldn't be blinded by someone elses religious beliefs. My view is guided from the ACTIONS of the PERSON not the beliefs of a nation. The Constitution was founded on principles yes. Like yours? The jury is still out on that.

[HighToy]

Originally Posted by 4Mogger

Handy link if you are in the market for some "magically-charged candles or bejeweled cauldrons."

Hence the reason I do not consider a Wiccan to be a threat to national security.

Clearly you have never been burned by said candle.

[4Mogger]

Originally Posted by HighToy

Clearly you have never been burned by said candle.

I fear neither Wiccan nor their magic candles.

[4Mogger]

Originally Posted by HighToy

I find this scary for some reason.

So does USMCDOC14 and that is the real purpose of this thread. Failure to grasp my loyalties implies failure to grasp the loyalties of any Believer of any particular set of religious principles. I fear the capabilities of the Islamic fundamentalist because I am aware of the influence my personal beliefs and convictions have upon me.

[usmcdoc14]

Originally Posted by 4Mogger

So does USMCDOC14 and that is the real purpose of this thread. Failure to grasp my loyalties implies failure to grasp the loyalties of any Believer of any particular set of religious principles. I fear the capabilities of the Islamic fundamentalist because I am aware of the influence my personal beliefs and convictions have upon me.

no its your failure to separate your professional job from your personal beliefs that I have a problem with and what that entails as a US military member.

get it right.

Your a bigot and any Muslim, Pagan or Wiccan that serves under you is going to be mistreated or untrusted.

Stop grasping for straws, stop trying to justify your mindset and face that this is truth.

[Spawn_X]

i still think 4mogger is all right. <shrug> anyone want to ?

[Travis Waldher]

Originally Posted by usmcdoc14

no its your failure to separate your professional job from your personal beliefs that I have a problem with and what that entails as a US military member.

get it right.

Your a bigot and any Muslim, Pagan or Wiccan that serves under you is going to be mistreated or untrusted.

Stop grasping for straws, stop trying to justify your mindset and face that this is truth.

Having never served in the military... I can't believe that I have THAT much different of a mindset from others that haven't served to understand your point.

If I were muslim... I sure wouldn't want to serve under 4mogger. If I had any clue about HIS beliefs, I wouldn't be able to trust him.

Beyond that... ANYONE that blames the muslim religion for the terrorism that is spreading across this globe in the name of the "muslim religion". Well... you're a fawkin' idiot for NOT looking at the big picture. The muslim religion is NOT the problem... it's the people that warp it for their own personal agenda. That can and does happen in every religion... EVERY religion.

[DRM]

Originally Posted by cdarthvader

hhmmm interesting. On one hand i can see where 4mogger is comming from. I don't trust people untill they give me a reason to trust them,

It is not that he doesn't trust the Muslim until he has a reason to, it is that he doesn't trust the Muslim because the current situation of the planet is such that he has a reason to *consider* that the Muslim may have a conflict of interest.

And 4Mogger has already stated that he would merely *consider* (as in, be on reasonable guard against) the concept that Muslim's may have a conflict of interest in the current world situation - and that consideration is not an blanket assumption, or an assumption he would be unable to despel when individual cases show that conflict not to exist.

To me, this is a reasonable thought process to work through.

[Spawn_X]

Originally Posted by DRM

To me, this is a reasonable thought process to work through.

+1

[4Mogger]

Originally Posted by usmcdoc14

no its your failure to separate your professional job from your personal beliefs that I have a problem with and what that entails as a US military member.

As I have said before, I have never allowed my personal convictions or beliefs to adversely affect my performance as a soldier or as a civilian. My running partner is a Muslim and an honorable man. He has earned my trust and my respect. I would have no reservation to place my life in his hands. I would not say the same for USMCDOC14 though he be a Marine as he has proven himself capable of dishonoring a fellow military member in a public forum for no just cause. You have no evidence of any dishonorable act or omission on my part. For that you should be held accountable, even though it has been done in this rediculous manner.

[cdarthvader]

Originally Posted by DRM

It is not that he doesn't trust the Muslim until he has a reason to, it is that he doesn't trust the Muslim because the current situation of the planet is such that he has a reason to *consider* that the Muslim may have a conflict of interest.

And 4Mogger has already stated that he would merely *consider* (as in, be on reasonable guard against) the concept that Muslim's may have a conflict of interest in the current world situation - and that consideration is not an blanket assumption, or an assumption he would be unable to despel when individual cases show that conflict not to exist.

To me, this is a reasonable thought process to work through.

Yes i was just merely pointing out that i can see it from both stand points. The person i spoke with today about this thread *who happens to be christian and in the army* agree with Doc. I was also pointing out that i don't trust people untill they give me a reason to trust them, not that that is what 4mogger was doing.

[DRM]

Originally Posted by Travis Waldher

Beyond that... ANYONE that blames the muslim religion for the terrorism that is spreading across this globe in the name of the "muslim religion". Well... you're a fawkin' idiot for NOT looking at the big picture. The muslim religion is NOT the problem... it's the people that warp it for their own personal agenda. That can and does happen in every religion... EVERY religion.

Which is exactly why a healthy amount of caution and concern should exist when 4Mogger is considering that the Muslim's he serves with *may* be one of those people who have warped the Muslim religion, correct?

Just as I would consider it healthy that a Christian be regarded with caution if the US gov't was engaged in a battle that some Christians consider a "holy war", and an attack on their religion itself.

Just as I would consider it healthy that a Native American man be regarded with caution if the US gov't was engaged in a battle that some native American men considered a war against the Native Americans.

It has NOTHING to do with religion - this is about reasonable caution.

[DRM]

Originally Posted by 4Mogger

USMCDOC14 though he be a Marine as he has proven himself capable of dishonoring a fellow military member in a public forum for no just cause.

Honestly, this bothers me more than anything else in this thread.

[usmcdoc14]

Originally Posted by 4Mogger

As I have said before, I have never allowed my personal convictions or beliefs to adversely affect my performance as a soldier or as a civilian. My running partner is a Muslim and an honorable man. He has earned my trust and my respect. I would have no reservation to place my life in his hands. I would not say the same for USMCDOC14 though he be a Marine as he has proven himself capable of dishonoring a fellow military member in a public forum for no just cause. You have no evidence of any dishonorable act or omission on my part. For that you should be held accountable, even though it has been done in this rediculous manner.

First off I don't give a fuck who you run with, its nice he has "earned" your trust. what did he do ? kill another Muslim for you to "prove himself" Why don't you tell him you don't trust Muslim military members or better yet have him read this thread and let him be a judge of you.

2nd I am NOT a Marine, maybe it would do you well to actually pay attention in this thread as I have numerously stated I am a Navy Corpsman. Even my screen name states USMC Doc. But you really don't pay much attention to what is posted here with the exception of what can pass threw your narrow point of view.

You dishonored yourself in a public forum by stating that you disdain Muslim military members. That you consider Wiccan and Pagan military members beneath you.

I have no evidence of any dishonorable act ? you have already stated your mistrust of Muslim military and how you question their loyalty. This in itself is a dishonorable act. You degrade the beliefs of your brothers in arms and yet you justify it in the name of your god.

And then you sit here and try to find information on random rare events to give your ideals justification. Like it makes it right


You are pathetic.