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Old 06-19-2017, 05:50 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Interesting supreme court case going on.

could be the most important privacy case in a generation.

clifs. Police get cell csli data (cell tower pings) for a guy that says that he was within 1-2 miles of the crimes and was convicted. He is saying that 4th amendment was broken when they "followed" him through his data. Gov says that because of "3rd party doctrine" They did not need one. He is arguing that because so much more data is available that should not apply. If he loses then the gov could keep constant track of our csli data and basically track us 24/7 without a warrant. I think that is bad.

Article does a better job of explaining.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...-privacy-op-ed

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Later this year, the Supreme Court will decide if police can track a person’s cell phone location without a warrant. It's the most important privacy case in a generation.

For all of the attention paid to former FBI Director Jim Comey's highly anticipated testimony before the Senate intelligence committee last Thursday, the most important constitutional law development from last week took place across the street (and three days earlier), when the Supreme Court agreed to hear argument in Carpenter v. United States later this year—though exactly when, we're not sure.

Carpenter raises a specific question about whether Americans have an expectation of privacy in historical "cell-site location information" ("CSLI"). The Petitioner, Timothy Carpenter, was one of two defendants convicted for his role in a series of armed robberies in Michigan and Ohio, based in part on 127 days of CSLI data that placed him between ½ and 2 miles from the robberies around the time they were committed.
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On appeal, the Sixth Circuit affirmed his conviction, holding that Carpenter had no expectation of privacy in his CSLI data--and so the government did not need a warrant before obtaining it and admitting it at trial. Whether the Supreme Court endorses or rejects this logic, the answer has enormous implications for privacy rights—and the Fourth Amendment—more generally. Indeed, it's no exaggeration to suggest that Carpenter will be the most important Fourth Amendment case that the Supreme Court has heard in a generation.

It's no exaggeration to suggest that Carpenter will be the most important Fourth Amendment case that the Supreme Court has heard in a generation.

A quick refresher on the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution: that's the one that protects individuals from "unreasonable searches and seizures," and says warrants must be issued with "probable cause," and specify a particular area or domain to be searched. As the Supreme Court has interpreted it, the Fourth Amendment applies to a government search—and the warrant requirement is usually triggered—whenever the search intrudes upon a "reasonable expectation of privacy." Thus, whether we have such an expectation of privacy in particular types of property or information is typically the key to whether the Fourth Amendment applies to government actions against the same.

At the heart of the dispute in Carpenter is the "third-party doctrine," the idea that we surrender our constitutional expectation of privacy whenever we voluntarily share non-content information with third-parties, such as our phone companies, internet service providers, financial institutions, and so on. The third-party doctrine brings together two distinct strands of Fourth Amendment theory—that individuals' voluntary conduct can effect a form of "consent" to government searches, and that individuals cannot assert a privacy interest in property they no longer own or possess.

Without an expectation of privacy in such information, the government may collect it without having to satisfy the Fourth Amendment—even if, in some cases, it must nevertheless satisfy more modest statutory requirements that Congress has imposed. Thus, although Edward Snowden's 2013 disclosure of the bulk telephone metadata collection prompted substantial public debate over the constitutionality of such surveillance, it is difficult to see the argument that it was unconstitutional, thanks to the third-party doctrine (the Second Circuit instead invalidated it on narrower, statutory grounds).

Although the phone records program is perhaps the most prominent example, there are hundreds of other government surveillance programs or protocols, the legitimacy of which is predicated on the third-party doctrine.

But as the Snowden disclosures also underscored, technology has dramatically changed the privacy implications of the third-party doctrine. As Justice Sonia Sotomayor explained in a 2012 concurrence,

This approach is ill suited to the digital age, in which people reveal a great deal of information about themselves to third parties in the course of carrying out mundane tasks. People disclose the phone numbers that they dial or text to their cellular providers; the URLs that they visit and the e-mail addresses with which they correspond to their Internet service providers; and the books, groceries, and medications they purchase to online retailers.

Not only has technology changed both the quality and quantity of the data we voluntarily provide to third parties (and, perhaps, the extent to which such actions really are "voluntary"); it has also dramatically increased the government's ability to collect larger percentages of such data, to aggregate the collected data from different sources, and to mine the aggregated data for pre-determined selectors, including specific individuals, types of transactions, or other physical or transactional patterns.

So not only are we sharing far more data with third parties than we did in the 1970s (when the third-party doctrine was articulated), but the government is in a far better position today to use that data to obtain information about us that we might not want it to have.

CSLI is a textbook example of this phenomenon. When the Supreme Court first set out the parameters of the third-party doctrine, phone records could often place an individual in their home or office when they were making and receiving telephone calls, but not otherwise or elsewhere. CSLI, in contrast, is the phone company's data of which cellular towers its customers are "pinging" when they're using their cell phones for almost any purpose (and, much of the time, even when they're not), data that can, depending upon the circumstances, be used quite accurately to pinpoint the specific locations of specific individuals at specific times—and not just in their home or office. (When customers have activated the GPS on their phones, the tracking of their location is even more accurate.)

"Historical" CSLI—the data at issue in Carpenter—is when one customer's CSLI is aggregated over time to study their patterns of movement—to follow them, in effect, by following the cell towers being utilized by their cell phone. If, as the lower courts concluded in Carpenter, we have no expectation of privacy in historical CSLI, then the government could theoretically keep near-constant tabs on every American who uses a cell phone—a rather Orwellian proposition, even by today's standards. In addition to the constant surveillance issue, the technology could also track us within our homes—traditionally the most private of places.

The government could theoretically keep near-constant tabs on every American who uses a cell phone...

To be sure, there is substantial debate over the numerous alternatives to the third-party doctrine, and exactly where courts should draw the line between when we do have an expectation of privacy in information like historical CSLI, and when we do not.

But the Supreme Court's decision to grant certiorari in Carpenter suggests, at the very least, that the Justices are interested in asking—and answering that question. Right now, we don't have any good indications on how they might rule. In Jones, a 2012 case on whether police could attach a GPS tracker to a car without triggering the Fourth Amendment, the Supreme Court unanimously answered that question in the negative, but disagreed as to exactly why. Complicating matters further, Justice Antonin Scalia (who wrote the majority opinion in Jones) has been replaced by Justice Neil Gorsuch—whose vote may well be decisive.

But however the justice vote in Carpenter, the implications for Fourth Amendment jurisprudence—and for the relationship between new technology and constitutional understandings of privacy—will be profound.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:09 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Nothing is private on the internet.

You are using a 3rd party supplier to search/connect you to the internet.

You are volentarily carring a device that is with your permission using gps to guide you and find things based on your location.

You are voluntarily carry a device that is tracking your speach to to pull up infomation with your commands.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Anybody ever think that we should be at a tipping point for people to start realizing the orwellian nature of our government, yet they are so fucking blind to it..
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:13 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Turn off locations services....lessons learned :P
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
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3rd party doctrine is bogus to begin with

Just because a person discloses information to XXXX party, does not mean that they give up an expectation of privacy. Just like telling a secret to one person, doesn't mean that they are expecting that person will go tell the whole world.

Walking down a public street is not the same as contracting and giving information to a business.

If it is understood that you give up privacy just because you give info to a third party, then that third party has every right to sell your personal information.

it's moronic to expect the company to keep your information private and not share, but turn around and say since you gave it to them, the .gov can just go get it because of a "legal theory"
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:17 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Leave phone at home and don't make any purchases with a card and drive a car without gps. Nobody will know where you are.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:19 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I'll never understand how criminals haven't figured out to leave their phones at home when doing the deed. "I was at home all evening" works better when the data supports it.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:20 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Leave phone at home and don't make any purchases with a card and drive a car without gps. Nobody will know where you are.
except traffic cameras and it's considered illegal to carry large sums of cash
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:20 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Turn off locations services....lessons learned :P
That won't do shit for tower pings.




Turn the fucking phone off if you're going to kill someone....
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:25 AM   #10 (permalink)
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it's considered illegal to carry large sums of cash
No, it's not.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:34 AM   #11 (permalink)
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except traffic cameras and it's considered illegal to carry large sums of cash
How much cash do honestly need?? I live in San Diego and could easily get across the country and back without a large sum of cash. Hell I bet I could drive to screwy and help him drink bleach then on to overbear and help him ass ride a shotgun move on to dumage and teach him the fundamentals of rational thought then go to maryland and wake up pewpew for work then get home all for less than 2 grand.

Now that I think about it more do I have any donations for a road trip?
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:52 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Nothing is private on the internet.

You are using a 3rd party supplier to search/connect you to the internet.

You are volentarily carring a device that is with your permission using gps to guide you and find things based on your location.

You are voluntarily carry a device that is tracking your speach to to pull up infomation with your commands.
it's not the internet that tracked him, it was cell provider data, that he was under contract with.

What other contracted services do you think should freely share your personal data with the government without a warrant?

Collection of phone records: Valuable tool or 'beyond Orwellian'? - CNNPolitics.com

If you think this is OK, then you also think that the NSA slurping up all that metadata is OK.
If that's the case, just go ahead and suck start a shotgun because of your thought crimes, cause we're full on 1984.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:56 AM   #13 (permalink)
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No, it's not.
while it may not be illegal, you'll just have it seized and then have to prove it's origins in court if you'd like it back.

Policing for Profit: Tennessee - Institute for Justice

especially if you're from out of state.
$85 million dollars seized in TN over 5 years.
and by everybody's accounts that number has only gone up since.
That's just one state.

Policing for Profit - Institute for Justice
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:01 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Anybody ever think that we should be at a tipping point for people to start realizing the orwellian nature of our government, yet they are so fucking blind to it..
If you told people 30 years ago that they would be willingly carrying a device in their pocket that could track them at all times and would listen or film them without their permission, you would have been laughed out of town.

Now people spend weekends in line to buy such devices.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:10 AM   #15 (permalink)
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They don't need to RFID chip us at this rate. We voluntarily carry our chips with us, along with a recording device, surveillance camera and complete record of all written conversations.

I'm very happy he's fighting this. I don't think he'll win.

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Old 06-19-2017, 07:15 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Anybody ever think that we should be at a tipping point for people to start realizing the orwellian nature of our government, yet they are so fucking blind to it..
But if you say anything about it or question the motive, you're one of those crazy tin-foily conspiracy theorists.

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How much cash do honestly need?? I live in San Diego and could easily get across the country and back without a large sum of cash. Hell I bet I could drive to screwy and help him drink bleach then on to overbear and help him ass ride a shotgun move on to dumage and teach him the fundamentals of rational thought then go to maryland and wake up pewpew for work then get home all for less than 2 grand.

Now that I think about it more do I have any donations for a road trip?
Why does it matter? Maybe you want to. There should be no problem with carrying $25k two states away on a Sunday to buy someone's rock crawler. Get pulled over on your way and see what happens.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:19 AM   #17 (permalink)
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But if you say anything about it or question the motive, you're one of those crazy tin-foily conspiracy theorists.



Why does it matter? Maybe you want to. There should be no problem with carrying $25k two states away on a Sunday to buy someone's rock crawler. Get pulled over on your way and see what happens.
Yea...it shouldn't matter. how would the officer know you have $25k in your car? did you get it all in $1 bills and stuff it all in your pockets? what did you get pulled over for? speeding or dollar bills flying out of your sunroof?
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:20 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Turn off locations services....lessons learned :P
Yes, because the graphical slider representation of "turning off location services" couldn't ever be circumvented...Realistically, you would have no idea if your phone was using data to send out pings of your location if apple or android wanted it too.

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That won't do shit for tower pings.




Turn the fucking phone off if you're going to kill someone....
Because certainly your phone couldn't do anything once you turned it off right?


Solution....Leave it home or take a faraday bag with you.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:22 AM   #19 (permalink)
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how would the officer know you have $25k in your car? did you get it all in $1 bills and stuff it all in your pockets? what did you get pulled over for? speeding or dollar bills flying out of your sunroof?
Hypothetically: Trailer lights are out. Let's say its in 20's snd 100's. You pulled it from your safe on a weekend. The cop asks to search your truck because you're traveling with a gun in the glove box, you bought on the used market 10 years ago, and it's not registered to you.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:27 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Hypothetically: Trailer lights are out. Let's say its in 20's snd 100's. You pulled it from your safe on a weekend. The cop asks to search your truck because you're traveling with a gun in the glove box, you bought on the used market 10 years ago, and it's not registered to you.
What gun registration? If it's not reported stolen, it's none of his fucking business.

I get your point though. It's too easy for a cop to find a reason to search you and take your money without proving anything wrong. It's not like it's never happened before, and the burden of proof seems to be on the owner of the money, when it's nobody's business why you're carrying it.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:37 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Action Fab View Post
Hypothetically: Trailer lights are out. Let's say its in 20's snd 100's. You pulled it from your safe on a weekend. The cop asks to search your truck because you're traveling with a gun in the glove box, you bought on the used market 10 years ago, and it's not registered to you.
Yea...dumb stuff happens when you're dealing with the average cop, with their 'discretion' and what not. But how does he know you have a gun? I'd never have a gun on me or (knowingly) in my car that wasn't registered to me, that is asking for it. Money is in an envelope stuffed between the seats.

Now cops being able to search your car because he is 'suspicious' is what really needs to be battled in he courts.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:40 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bgaidan View Post
That won't do shit for tower pings.




Turn the fucking phone off if you're going to kill someone....
Phone off, battery out
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:43 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Why does it matter? Maybe you want to. There should be no problem with carrying $25k two states away on a Sunday to buy someone's rock crawler. Get pulled over on your way and see what happens.
I have done this... I had 30K on me at one time to make a cash purchase.

So had I been pulled over, your saying I would have the cash seized, and have to prove it's origins AND the intent of having that much cash?

WTF?

Guess I'm old skool...
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:44 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Phone off, battery out
Why do you think 90% of phones on the market have a non removable battery?
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:45 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87manche View Post
it's not the internet that tracked him, it was cell provider data, that he was under contract with.

What other contracted services do you think should freely share your personal data with the government without a warrant?

Collection of phone records: Valuable tool or 'beyond Orwellian'? - CNNPolitics.com

If you think this is OK, then you also think that the NSA slurping up all that metadata is OK.
If that's the case, just go ahead and suck start a shotgun because of your thought crimes, cause we're full on 1984.
Maybe i shouldnt have said "internet"
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