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Old 07-29-2010, 07:17 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Bayer Tree and Shrub for Fleas

They have permanently changed the formula.
Now they add fertilizer to the mix. Specifically so you don't use it on animals.

If you can find some of the old stock that only had Imidacloprid, you better get it and store it away.

The new label says "Protect and Feed". If you look at the ingredients, it contains fertilizer. This is what the new label looks like

DO NOT USE BAYER TREE AND SHRUB THAT CONTAINS FERTILIZER ON YOUR DOG
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:20 AM   #2 (permalink)
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What did the old stuff look like?
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:25 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Apparently they make a whole lot more money selling it 1 ounce at a time in 3 applicators called Advantage Flea drops.

They did sell the Bayer Tree and Shrub with fertilizer seperately from the regular Tree and Shrub. It was called Advanced. Now they only sell it with the fertilizer.

You can still buy concentrate that has Imidacloprid, but you will have to search around the feed store. One brand is Dominion Tree and Shrub.

Here is what the lable looks like on it:
http://216.119.80.3/data/products/ot...2010-02-07.pdf

Quote:
A 1.47% Imidacloprid product for outdoor residential use only. Protection can not be washed off by rain or water and protects against nuisance pests for up to 12 months. Dominion Tree & Shrub is easy to use, just mix and pour and apply at the treebase.
Here is a link to a place that sells it:
http://www.mws-d.com/ProductDetail.aspx?productid=2504

Here is what the label looks like:
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:27 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CJHeap View Post
What did the old stuff look like?
The old stuff had this as the ingredients
Active Ingredients: Imidacloprid: 1.47%
The rest was inert.

The new stuff has the same active ingredients, but beneath shows the fertilizer content.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:28 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The dosage is the same for the Dominion as it was for the old Bayer Tree and Shrub.
Here is the dosage for Dominion:

10 lbs----------- 3 ml
20-25 lbs------- 7.5ml
40-65 lbs------- 15ml
65-90 lbs------- 20ml

I use a syringe obviously without a needle to measure the liquid, then I use it just like regular flea drops. Place it under the fur along the spine from mid back up to neck.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I will look today. Thanks for the info.

If I find it, what is the method to use it on the dogs. The damn squirrels are keeping my yard full of fleas.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:34 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Ok I am confused.

Why would I use something for trees on my dog in the first place? Because its effective?
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:35 AM   #8 (permalink)
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See post above, I edited the post so all the info would be at the same place.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:37 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverZuk View Post
The old stuff had this as the ingredients
Active Ingredients: Imidacloprid: 1.47%
The rest was inert.

The new stuff has the same active ingredients, but beneath shows the fertilizer content.
We bought some when you first talked about it, ingredient list is as above but say feeds as well. Won't use that.

Have to check Tractor Supply for the Dominion
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:42 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for posting that up.I just read yesterday on pit bull chat that the new stuff is TOXIC. here`s a quote on there and the response.



Originally Posted by travgarrett
Ok some folks my think this is crazy but i have some hunting buddies that use adams tree and shrub, 1cc per 10lbs. I said that is ridiculous and they said bring over your dog so i did. They put the stuff on just like frontline on the neck havnt seen a flea all summer. They did say it didnt do much for ticks but havnt seen one of those either just my 2 cents.

I am not familar with adams. However I am with Bayer Tree and Shrub, Gordons, and Ortho. With Bayer they have added fertilizer so now it says tree and shrub and protect and feed. And it is TOXIC.

You have to realize with those agicultural products while they have the same active ingredient as advantage they are not formulated the same and have different inactive ingredients. The also do not spread through the oil glands and cover the entire body. Just where you put it.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:46 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Ok I am confused.

Why would I use something for trees on my dog in the first place? Because its effective?
Because it is the same stuff that is sold as "Advantage Flea Medicine" that is sold for $15 to $20 for 3 applicators.

You can buy the same thing for $15 per liter.
I have a kennel full of dogs, so I keep my ears open for this type of information.

It is the same way with wormers. If you buy a wormer for a dog, you pay $10 for one treatment. I get the exact same wormer for $20 and treat my whole kennel and still have a little left over.

Safeguard wormer is the exact same for cats, dogs, goats, and cattle. The only difference is the size of packet. I buy the small bottle for goats for $20. The size for cattle is big bottle for $129.

You give 3 days in a row. I worm about every three months, or if I see signs of worms. This wormer will not get tape worms.

Edit: Here is the dosage chart for Safeguard Liquid
LBS=ML
8=1.6 9=1.8 10=2 11=2.2 12=2.4 13=2.6 14=2.8 15=3 16=3.2
17=3.4 18=3.6 19=3.8 20=4 21=4.2 22=4.4 23=4.6 24=4.8 25=5
26=5.2 27=5.4 28=5.6 29=5.8 30=6 31=6.2 32=6.4 33=6.6
34=6.8 35=7 36=7.2 37=7.4 38=7.6 39=7.8 40=8


Your heartguard wormer is ivermectin. The same stuff you use on horses and cattle. So I buy it in larger sizes and treat every dog I own for a few dollars.

Tapeworms require a wormer with Praziquantel. You can get that in horse and cattle sizes too a whole lot cheaper than for dog sizes.

Here is some more info I posted in another thread:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...equimax&page=3
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:46 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Advantage for dogs 55+ lbs is 9% imidacloprid.



Also, a dog is not a shrub.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:50 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Advantage for dogs 55+ lbs is 9% imidacloprid.



Also, a dog is not a shrub.
All the advantage drops for dogs are 9%, that is why you have to use more volume of the tree and shrub to equal the same amount of active ingredient.

Since when are dogs not shrubs? That is a new one on me. Maybe I need to quit watering mine and trimming them with hedge trimmers.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:54 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I think I bought that same crap and put it on my dogs... I'm guessing one treatment causes no harm. Thanks for posting up!
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:55 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Thanks for posting that up.I just read yesterday on pit bull chat that the new stuff is TOXIC. here`s a quote on there and the response.
I got a PM this weekend where someone on this board said they used it and the dog got sick. I recommended they didn't use again and make sure they weren't using the one with fertilizer.

That is the reason I started this thread, because of that PM. I did some searching and discovered that all Bayer Tree and Shrub has fertilizer now.

I tried to emphasize in other posts to make sure you get the regular tree and shrub, not the one with fertilizer (Bayer Advanced). I found out thorugh my research that they no longer sell the regular under the Bayer name.

So I wanted a post with Bayer Tree and Shrub in the title so if anyone searches they will get this information.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:56 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I think I bought that same crap and put it on my dogs... I'm guessing one treatment causes no harm. Thanks for posting up!
Just make sure it is not the one with fertilizer and it is OK.
If it is the one with fertilizer - use it on your shrubs.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:59 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I always get a kick out of it when people have a whole kennel full of dogs but then cut all the corners when it comes to this kind of stuff. I know having a lot of dogs is expensive, but maybe you should have thought of that before you bought/bred them.

I am not saying you're not taking care of them, but how do you know the shit you're using is safe? Only because it doesn't kill them, or because someone else said it's OK? Or, maybe you found it on the internet? For all you know, small amounts of inactive ingredients are building up in the liver or kidneys, and it might kill your dog(s). I am not really trying to be a dick, I am curious if you have done adequate research to KNOW that it is safe.

I equate this to someone buying off road diesel to run in their brand new truck. Sure, people do it, and yeah, maybe it's OK, but I ain't gonna do it with my own stuff.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:06 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverZuk View Post
Because it is the same stuff that is sold as "Advantage Flea Medicine" that is sold for $15 to $20 for 3 applicators.

You can buy the same thing for $15 per liter.
I have a kennel full of dogs, so I keep my ears open for this type of information.

It is the same way with wormers. If you buy a wormer for a dog, you pay $10 for one treatment. I get the exact same wormer for $20 and treat my whole kennel and still have a little left over.

Safeguard wormer is the exact same for cats, dogs, goats, and cattle. The only difference is the size of packet. I buy the small bottle for goats for $20. The size for cattle is big bottle for $129.

I dose 1cc per 10# of dog. You give 3 days in a row. I worm about every three months, or if I see signs of worms. This wormer will not get tape worms.

Your heartguard wormer is ivermectin. The same stuff you use on horses and cattle. So I buy it in larger sizes and treat every dog I own for a few dollars.

Tapeworms require a wormer with Praziquantel. You can get that in horse and cattle sizes too a whole lot cheaper than for dog sizes.

Here is some more info I posted in another thread:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...equimax&page=3
I think you are dosing the wrong amount for your wormer.


Safe-Guard dewormer for goats is 100MG/ML, and you should be giving a dog 22.7 MG per pound of Fenbendazole. Be careful with your dosing if you're going to use off label products.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:07 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I always get a kick out of it when people have a whole kennel full of dogs but then cut all the corners when it comes to this kind of stuff. I know having a lot of dogs is expensive, but maybe you should have thought of that before you bought/bred them.

I am not saying you're not taking care of them, but how do you know the shit you're using is safe? Only because it doesn't kill them, or because someone else said it's OK? Or, maybe you found it on the internet? For all you know, small amounts of inactive ingredients are building up in the liver or kidneys, and it might kill your dog(s). I am not really trying to be a dick, I am curious if you have done adequate research to KNOW that it is safe.
Post your research show the inactive ingredients are building up in the liver and kidneys. What are these ingredients?

I've done my research enough to satisfy me. I didn't document all that I read, because I was doing it for my own comfort and satisfaction. I spent quite a bit of time reading and learning and could not find any indicators that these methods are harmful.

To anyone that is not comfortable with these methods, don't use them.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:08 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverZuk View Post
All the advantage drops for dogs are 9%, that is why you have to use more volume of the tree and shrub to equal the same amount of active ingredient.

Since when are dogs not shrubs? That is a new one on me. Maybe I need to quit watering mine and trimming them with hedge trimmers.
Advantage is also a folicular product. That is, it gets into the pores and oil glands. I do not imagine a shrug treatment does this. My biggest concern, however, is those "inert" ingredients in your shrub stuff. It's one thing to use off label medicines, but that's more than off label. It's just not designed for use in animals at all. It may be safe, and it may be effective, but it's questionable on the safety aspect.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:15 AM   #21 (permalink)
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And it's kind of pathetic in this overly litigious (there's your word DRM) society that they have to print on a plant product not to use it on animals.

I have done a little reading since my last post, and it appears there are some ingredients that are withheld from public access and kept as trade secrets. Maybe one of these compounds is what is building up your dogs' livers, waiting to kill them.

This is from a Bayer employee:

There are products within the Bayer Advance Garden product line that are very toxic to animals. We cannot recommend strongly enough NOT to use any of the Bayer Advanced Garden line of products on ANY animal.

Granted, it would behoove an employee of the company that makes pet flea preventatives to say this, but the bottom line is that I would not use this in any of my animals.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:15 AM   #22 (permalink)
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They have permanently changed the formula.
Now they add fertilizer to the mix. Specifically so you don't use it on animals.
Well that sucks.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:17 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 2DaMtns View Post
I always get a kick out of it when people have a whole kennel full of dogs but then cut all the corners when it comes to this kind of stuff. I know having a lot of dogs is expensive, but maybe you should have thought of that before you bought/bred them.

I am not saying you're not taking care of them, but how do you know the shit you're using is safe? Only because it doesn't kill them, or because someone else said it's OK? Or, maybe you found it on the internet? For all you know, small amounts of inactive ingredients are building up in the liver or kidneys, and it might kill your dog(s). I am not really trying to be a dick, I am curious if you have done adequate research to KNOW that it is safe.

I equate this to someone buying off road diesel to run in their brand new truck. Sure, people do it, and yeah, maybe it's OK, but I ain't gonna do it with my own stuff.
Offroad diesel is the same thing with red color, it is even ulsd. During hurricane Katrina, the feds allowed it to be used onroad even. I still have the letter from the feds allowing me to do so.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:20 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Post your research show the inactive ingredients are building up in the liver and kidneys. What are these ingredients?
I am not saying that there are compounds that build up in the liver and kidneys, I am just saying it's possible.

And why would/should there be a bunch of studies about the effects of this plant product in dogs? Here's a thought, if the studies had been done, it would cost more. That's part of the reason the pet stuff is more expensive, because the studies have been done. Definitely not all, but part.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:23 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I think you are dosing the wrong amount for your wormer.
Safe-Guard dewormer for goats is 100MG/ML, and you should be giving a dog 22.7 MG per pound of Fenbendazole. Be careful with your dosing if you're going to use off label products.
You are correct, my dosing is a little light but works fine.
Here is some of the info I have compiled on the wormer.

Quote:
What are the steps to follow to prevent intestinal worms In your hounds?

1. All hounds should receive safe-guard for three consecutive days every other month. I always do this on the 15th, 16th and 17th of every other month. Jan, Mar, May, Jul, Sep and Nov.

2. On the first day that safe-guard is to be given, (15th) I will weigh each hound and record their weight. I use a bathroom scale to weigh the dogs. I first weigh myself. I try to keep my weight at a nice round number. (200 lbs.) I then pick up a hound and step back on the scales. The difference between my weight and our combined weight is obviously the weight of the hound. This is not an exact science, but is better than just guessing. If you are off a pound or so it is not a show stopper. Safe-guard is just that, safe. If you give a little too much no harm is done. However, giving to much is a waste, so try and be as accurate as possible.

3. Based on each dog’s weight and using my safe-guard chart I give each hound the correct amount of safe-guard. I use a 10 or 12 cc syringe, without a needle. I shake the safeguard up and then poor some into a small shallow cup. It is easier to draw the safe-guard out of a cup than trying to get it out of the 1000 ml jug.
4. Just open each dog’s mouth and inject the safe-guard over their tongue and into the back of their throat.
5. This process is repeated on the 16th and 17th. Having recorded each hounds weight on the day of the weigh-in, there is no need to weigh them again.

Notice: Safe-guard should be kept refrigerated after it is opened. When received it will have an expiration date. I have never received a shipment with less than a 2 year shelf life. Any one who has 5 or 6 average size beagles will use up the 1000 ml container within two years. Many dog owners alternate between safe-guard and other products. I do not. I have had my hounds on safe-guard for over 6 years now and I would dare to say they are worm free.


Safeguard Paste

My first experience with this product, I used the paste. This paste may be found in most co-ops or feed stores. Today’s price is $6.95 for a 25 gram syringe which is intended for horses. The syringe has a plunger marked off for a 1000 pound horse. This presents some what of a challenge when you are trying to dispense the correct amount to your hound.


The correct amount of safeguard for your hound is 1 gram for each 5 pounds of dog body weight. This syringe has a total of 25 grams. The scale on the plunger is 0 to 1000. If we divide 1000 by 25 we will see that 1 gm of paste would equal to 40 on the plunger. If you had a 25 pound hound you need to divide 25 by 5 to learn you need 5 grams of paste. If 1 gm = 40 on the syringe plunger, you must multiply 5 times 40 to find that 200 on the plunger is equal to the 5 grams of paste needed. Following the directions on the box, remove the syringe tip, turn the dial ring down to zero, depress plunger to advance paste to the tip, now set the dial ring at the graduation you have determined for your 25 pound hound (200), dispense paste onto the back of the dogs tongue. Now that you have it all figured out, get ready to start over, because all your dogs do not weigh the same and if they did, you would have to move the ring to 400 for the next dog, then 600 and so on. If you do it all right you can take care of five 25 pound hounds with one syringe for one day. This is done three days in succession, every other month.
That is just too complicated for most of us to make it work. By the time I did all the above calculations, adjusted the dial ring, administered the paste then ran back to the co-op for more paste the number of worms in the last hound to be treated may have already doubled in number.

Safe-guard liquid
Contains the same active ingredient as the paste.
(fenbendazole)

Liquid safe-guard is manufactured as a dewormer for beef and dairy cattle. This liquid comes in 1000ml containers and is by far the best choice for your hounds. It is easy to measure and administer. On top of that it is much cheaper than the paste.
The paste cost $6.95 for just 25 gm. 1000gm would cost $278.
A 1000 ml container, including shipping cost about $115. This means that you can worm a 25 pound hound for three consecutive days for under $1.73 and just $10.38 per year. This same dog when using paste would cost $4.17 for three days and $25.02 for the one hound for the year. For less than half the price the liquid is by far the best choice.
Measuring is as easy as using a 10 or 12 cc syringe to draw up the amount you need. To know the exact amount to give each hound, I developed a chart that tells how much to give each hound based on their weight.

Safe-guard Chart
Safe-guard is given bi-monthly, 1cc or ml per 5 lbs. For 3 consecutive days.

LBS=ML
8=1.6 9=1.8 10=2 11=2.2 12=2.4 13=2.6 14=2.8 15=3 16=3.2
17=3.4 18=3.6 19=3.8 20=4 21=4.2 22=4.4 23=4.6 24=4.8 25=5
26=5.2 27=5.4 28=5.6 29=5.8 30=6 31=6.2 32=6.4 33=6.6
34=6.8 35=7 36=7.2 37=7.4 38=7.6 39=7.8 40=8

In the above chart the first number is the dog’s weight and the number following the equals sign (=) is the number of ml or cc of safe-guard to give for that weight.
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Last edited by SilverZuk; 07-29-2010 at 08:28 AM.
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