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The ultimate SOA

2K views 30 replies 12 participants last post by  Snoopy 
#1 · (Edited)
That other thread got me thinking. Not that I plan on doing this, but it would be nice for people to have a reference to what the ultimate set-up for a DD/Weekend warrior might look like should they want to take the time/spend the money.

My thoughts...
#33" favorite brand tires/wheels
#Stock Dana 44's, front cut-n-turned with flat-top outers.
#Stock springs
#High steer with two holes in the pass side arm so that the tie-rod/d-link are NOT connected at the rod end
#Hydro assist (even with 33's) for perfect steering and no bump steer
#Wrap control bar from Parts Mike for the rear axle
#cv drivelines front and rear
#new bushings and shackles front and rear
#new bump-stops
#braided steel brake lines
#Doetschtec (SP?) 8000 series 14" travel shocks EDIT: Make that 12" shocks.
#Ford shock towers in the front
#flat stock upper shock mount for the rear
 
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#2 · (Edited)
3.73 - 4.10 gears and lock right(s), while not directly a part of the SOA, I think the lower gears and lockers are an important part of the package. Stock gears usually are not low enough with 33's or bigger.

If the Scout doesn't already have a 44 front, I'd recommend a '74-'76 Wagoneer front 44 with F-150 hub & rotor. The width is almost the same a Scout 44, they don't need cut and turned, and they come with flat top knuckles, bigger stub shafts and internal hubs.
 
#3 ·
JoshC said:
#Stock Dana 44's, front cut-n-turned with flat-top outers.
I think if I was thinking "ultimate" SOA and was planning on staying stock width D44 in the front, I would look at getting a Chevy D44 housing with the 0.5" wall tubes and cutt it down to SII width. Since you also mentioned cut & turn, this would be a simple matter.
JoshC said:
#High steer with two holes in the pass side arm so that the tie-rod/d-link are NOT connected at the rod end
Please explain why you see the d-link connected to the TRE such a negative.
 
#4 ·
Ben W said:
3.73 - 4.10 gears and lock right(s), while not directly a part of the SOA,...
LOL, I started thinking about gear, that led to new body mounts, then I started thinking 350SBC... anyhow, I decided to leave that at the personal decision level. I can't beleive how many people I meet "love their hiway gears".
 
#5 ·
Mechanos said:
Please explain why you see the d-link connected to the TRE such a negative.
I've never been happy with mine. Too hard to steer, too much hiway wander, and too much bump steer. May be just a coincidence, but I've been in a Scout that had the "two hole" set-up and it handled much better. Yep, pretty much identical front ends.

Actually, thinking about it now, with the hydro assist I could proably run hanger wire steering linkage and I'd still be happy with the steering. :D
 
#6 ·
Ben W said:
3.73 - 4.10 gears and lock right(s), while not directly a part of the SOA, I think the lower gears and lockers are an important part of the package. Stock gears usually are not low enough with 33's or bigger.

If the Scout doesn't already have a 44 front, I'd recommend a '74-'76 Wagoneer front 44 with F-150 hub & rotor. The width is almost the same a Scout 44, they don't need cut and turned, and they come with flat top knuckles, bigger stub shafts and internal hubs.
I definately agree with losing the SII outer junk and swapping to internal hubs & stub shafts. Either with 'small bearing' spindles and Ford hubs/rotors or 'big bearing' spindles and Dodge hubs/rotors, you get the internal locking hubs and can keep your 5 on 5.5 pattern.
 
#7 ·
JoshC said:
#Hydro assist (even with 33's) for perfect steering and no bump steer
ok, somethings been bothering me since the first time I saw a hydro assist setup.

hydraulic pressure causes the ram to extend out of the body, right? however, since once "out" it's no longer in an enclosed space, mechanical force is used to push the ram back in.

So you're really only getting "assist" half the time, right?

So why even bother with hydro assist, if you're gonna go hydro, go full hydro (of course that won't be cheap, but compared to rebuilding your steering setup...

still expensive, but not as bad as some think

NQS
 
#8 ·
NotQuiteSane said:
ok, somethings been bothering me since the first time I saw a hydro assist setup.

hydraulic pressure causes the ram to extend out of the body, right? however, since once "out" it's no longer in an enclosed space, mechanical force is used to push the ram back in.
Uhh, no. You use a dual acting ram, hydraulic pressure extends and retracts the ram. There are hydraulic ports on both sides of the piston.
 
#9 · (Edited)
this is why they call it PORTING the box :D


If you are going to do hydro-assist NQS, look into Rocklogics kit, nice price and I have'nt had any issues with the system, its worked flawless..
 
#10 · (Edited)
Ben is correct.... however, there is one other quirk with hydro assist when using a single-ended dual acting cylinder. The volume of the cylinder and piston surface area is greater on one side of the piston than it is on the other (the piston rod's volume and cross-sectional area is subtracted from the side the rod is on). When the side without the rod is receiving pressure, it fills slower due to the larger volume and exerts a greater force since the piston area is bigger. When the side with the rod fills faster but exerts a smaller force. This results in stronger/slower assist in one direction and faster/weaker assist in the other, but the difference is usually not that big of a deal. You can overcome this by using two single-ended dual action cylinders tied together but configured opposite of each other or by using a double-ended dual action cyinder if you just can't live with the quirk.
 
#11 ·
JoshC said:
LOL, I started thinking about gear, that led to new body mounts, then I started thinking 350SBC... anyhow, I decided to leave that at the personal decision level. I can't beleive how many people I meet "love their hiway gears".
In my truck, with 31" tires, I love my 4.30 highway gears.

In my Scout, with 36s, I don't love my 4.10 highway gears.. too dang tall.

Only thing without highway gears is the race Scout, with 4.88s and 31s... or sometimes 235/75-15 studs.
 
#12 ·
Mechanos said:
You can overcome this by using two single-ended dual action cylinders tied together
uh, isn't that the same as full hydro?

anyhow, I see where I was mistaken, but I'm still not sure I'd get it. i'd just rather have full hydro

NQS
 
#14 ·
No, it's not the same as full hydro. Just hydro assist done slightly different.
The piston faster-weaker/ slower-stronger thing is technically correct on paper but in the real world you can't tell the difference. I would bet money you couldn't tell which way the ram is on my rig by steering it and not looking underneath.
Oh yeah, you still have bump steer with assist. It's full hydro that you loose it.
 
#15 ·
As the other have pointed out, it's not the same as full hydro. Hydro assist is called such because it uses a hydraulic cylinder to assist the mechanical steering box. Full hydro does not use any sort of mechanical steering gear.... it's 100% hydraulic. Think of it this way... if you drain all the fluid from a hydro assist system, you can still turn the wheels by moving the steering wheel. If you drain all the fluid from a full hydro system, turning the steering wheel won't do shit.

This is where the "street legal" argument comes into play. If you're running hydro assist and tooling down the highway and blow a hose, you still have some control. In the same situation only running full hydro and blow a hose, you're just along for the ride.
 
#16 ·
Mechanos said:
Please explain why you see the d-link connected to the TRE such a negative.
Yes, the draglink will tend to twist the tie rod when your starting the turn, which means that there appears to be more play in the wheel ~ which translates into wander.

On the freeway, this twisting will happen when making small corrections...making it like you never made an effort to correct. Thats one reason I have Bonz custom build my passenger arms longer and with the second hole.
 
#17 ·
Mechanos said:
This is where the "street legal" argument comes into play. If you're running hydro assist and tooling down the highway and blow a hose, you still have some control. In the same situation only running full hydro and blow a hose, you're just along for the ride.
Tell me, when the garbage truck comes down your street, do you run and hide?

a properly designed, installed and maintained full hydro setup is no more dangerous than a properly maintained brake system, suspension, beadlock wheel (or even the tire itself).

NQS
 
#18 ·
NotQuiteSane said:
Tell me, when the garbage truck comes down your street, do you run and hide?

NQS
Problem is, many of us don't know how to design garbage trucks.

So... After the seemingly silly questions you asked, I can't beleive your talkin shit. Mech is straight talkin. Are you guys friends and you're razzin him or something?
 
#19 ·
JoshC said:
Problem is, many of us don't know how to design garbage trucks.

So... After the seemingly silly questions you asked, I can't beleive your talkin shit. Mech is straight talkin. Are you guys friends and you're razzin him or something?
but a garbage truck uses hydro, and the concept is the same.

oh, and I don't know Mech, and yes I am.

NQS
 
#20 ·
NotQuiteSane said:
Tell me, when the garbage truck comes down your street, do you run and hide?

a properly designed, installed and maintained full hydro setup is no more dangerous than a properly maintained brake system, suspension, beadlock wheel (or even the tire itself).

NQS
No, I don't run and hide.... and I neither comdemned nor condoned full hydro. I was merely trying to explain the differences between the two systems to someone who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
 
#21 ·
NotQuiteSane said:
Tell me, when the garbage truck comes down your street, do you run and hide?

a properly designed, installed and maintained full hydro setup is no more dangerous than a properly maintained brake system, suspension, beadlock wheel (or even the tire itself).

NQS
Dump trucks use factory lift blocks on their front axles too, but they are illegal for me and you to do.


Just because an OEM manufacture uses it doesn't necessarily mean it is not against DOT regs for your area.... OEM gets exceptions to the rules.... and has allot more design time and $$$ into them than average joe truck builder. Plus they get THEIR system DOT approved.

That is the reason most bead-locks are "illegal"... not cause there is a flaw in the design... but the manufactures haven't gone through (nor many desire) the legal mombo-jumbo that it takes to get the DOT stamp... same with SS braided brakelines...
 
#23 ·
The Fleckster said:
Um why has no one mentioned Strait steer with the hydro assist system??
IMHO the brace is a bandade that masks the real problem (at least the problem that is occuring 95% of the time) ~ worn componants. Not to say that the brace is useless. I imagine if I've purchased a built rig that has been wheeled aggresively ~ or even has had large tires put under it for a long period of time, I'd need a brace. It all depends on the shape and use of the rig given this setup.

Besides, the Hydro-Assist system takes 80% (or more) of the steering pressure/forces OFF the frame and relocates them to the axle. Therefore the frame only sees a fraction of the original forces ~ and doen't need to be strengthened.

Thats why this setup (hydro-assist) is so right for this setup ~ if you've never turned BIG meats or lockers with the stock system, then chances are the frame isn't fatigued ~ and if it's not fatigued, then no brace is needed. Further, in a year or two, will a rig with this setup need a brace? No, simply because the HydroAssist has *sheilded* the frame from most of the steering forces associated with turning big meat w/ lockers.

At least, thats my opinion ~ but I'm sure these guys will have other thoughts
 
#24 ·
Thoughts on full hydro on the street:

Honestly, fully hydro systems can be street safe (unless a hose gives out). All you need is a cylinder so freaking big (diameter) that it reacts like a cow. But if you're using a standard *rock crawling* ram, the slightest movement of the wheel will send you flying into the next lane. I had a guy come over to the shop with a Full Hydro system on his Scout ~ and he drove on the highway to get there. I took a look and he had a 4" Ram under that puppy ~ I'd amagine he wouldn't try that if it was only a 2" ram.
 
#25 ·
You can have a full hydro system that is as touchy or sluggish as you desire, regardless of the size of the ram. With a typical 2.25 bore x 8 stroke x 1.25 rod balanced ram you could have anywhere from 5.5 turns lock to lock with a 4 in.^3 displacement valve to 1.8 turns lock to lock with a 12.1 in.^3 valve.

So, no, you don't need a "freaking big" cylinder to make it react like a cow, its the combination of cylinder and valve that determine the how the system acts.
 
#26 ·
Snoopy said:
IMHO the brace is a bandade that masks the real problem (at least the problem that is occuring 95% of the time) ~ worn componants.
Not that I see as many Scouts through my shop as yours, but I'd disagree. It's a fix for the common frame fatigue at the steering box.

I broke my LR, and it was acting like a spool.

A little while later, I bent the draglink into a "U". Comer fixed me up with a DOM draglink.

A month later I bought a straight DOM tie-rod to replace the new weak-link in the system, the stock tie-rod.

A while later, I found my steering box wiggling when I turned and watched the frame twisting. Guess that was the next weak link.

I didn't go straight-steer. I grabbed a hunk of 4"x.250" flat about 12" long that just fits between the core support body mount and the shock mount, drilled it, and installed.

I guess now the weak link is the traction provided by 36" TSLs.. that is, they break traction with the ground before the steering system fails.

Besides, the Hydro-Assist system takes 80% (or more) of the steering pressure/forces OFF the frame and relocates them to the axle. Therefore the frame only sees a fraction of the original forces ~ and doen't need to be strengthened.

Thats why this setup (hydro-assist) is so right for this setup ~ if you've never turned BIG meats or lockers with the stock system, then chances are the frame isn't fatigued ~ and if it's not fatigued, then no brace is needed. Further, in a year or two, will a rig with this setup need a brace? No, simply because the HydroAssist has *sheilded* the frame from most of the steering forces associated with turning big meat w/ lockers.
Mark it on your calendars, folks.... I concur with Damian.
 
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