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Old 10-10-2011, 12:00 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Tom, you can mod that Jeep seat--here's my thread. I took a Jeep rear seat, yanked the foam off the bottom, and welded up a suspension seat frame using 3/4" EMT. covered with suspension webbing and then a thin layer of softer 2" open cell foam and modded the original seat cover to fit. 2" more headroom, slots for antisub belts, and better side-to-side "butt fit" for the kiddos. I also carved scoops vertically out of the seat back to leave "bolsters" to keep them centered.

They're a couple years older than your girls, but the seat fits them great. Would also give you a chance to fit the seat "ears" around the wheel wells. Lose the booster seats and mount this seat higher in the Scout for when they're little. When they get bigger, drop the seat height.
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:55 PM   #77 (permalink)
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That still leaves a 2m hiding somewhere for APRS, and another for voice. At least one can hang under the dash in view, wired up through the in-dash speaker. I have two FT-2800s I can put to use (one voice, one packet) but would really like to get my hands on an FTM-350 or a third D710A. We'll see..
I need to find a used hamfest Alinco + some $$$ to free one of your under-utilized FT-2800's up from packet duty!!
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:01 PM   #78 (permalink)
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While I was busy working my tail off the past two weeks, a few packages of parts arrived, including the LED turn signals, new lug nuts, and some 1" Avalanche Engineering D60 spacers.

I did notice that the long tie-rod end with the draglink hooked into it is that - a LONG tie-rod end, so I'll need to order a replacement before I build the drop tie-rod.

No real progress - I was beating the pistons out of a 196 - but did tear into the stock Scout II rear seat.

After taking the two halves apart, removing the seat cover for the first time in 20 years, and then all of the brackets from the bottom, I ripped the cover at the underside "ears" and found some metal.. which my sawzall dismissed.



I used a utility knife to cut the foam rubber from the outside.

I'll wash the seat cover and re-install, figure out some way to cinch in the corners, and I'll have an ear-less seat bottom that should fit between the wheel wells just fine.

I need to unzip the top half's cover and give it the same treatment.

I should then have a stock-width fold-and-tumble rear seat, sans ears.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:05 PM   #79 (permalink)
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While I was busy working my tail off the past two weeks, a few packages of parts arrived, including the LED turn signals, new lug nuts, and some 1" Avalanche Engineering D60 spacers.

I did notice that the long tie-rod end with the draglink hooked into it is that - a LONG tie-rod end, so I'll need to order a replacement before I build the drop tie-rod.

No real progress - I was beating the pistons out of a 196 - but did tear into the stock Scout II rear seat.

After taking the two halves apart, removing the seat cover for the first time in 20 years, and then all of the brackets from the bottom, I ripped the cover at the underside "ears" and found some metal.. which my sawzall dismissed.



I used a utility knife to cut the foam rubber from the outside.

I'll wash the seat cover and re-install, figure out some way to cinch in the corners, and I'll have an ear-less seat bottom that should fit between the wheel wells just fine.

I need to unzip the top half's cover and give it the same treatment.

I should then have a stock-width fold-and-tumble rear seat, sans ears.

I wonder if they could be welded back on but facing up on the lower seat and forward on the upper (seat back) to kind of cradle the occupants to keep them from sliding sideways?
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:01 AM   #80 (permalink)
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I wonder if they could be welded back on but facing up on the lower seat and forward on the upper (seat back) to kind of cradle the occupants to keep them from sliding sideways?
I think that would be a neat idea, but would ruin the ability to "fold and tumble" the rear seat, since the "ears" would hit.

Seat test fit. I'll put the cover back on.




Rough picture of the space between the shock hoop and seat back. Looks like a good spot for axle shafts, or driveshafts mebbe.


Got the driver's side bar out of the bender (ram didn't want to retract) and dang if it wasn't spot on (after making the passenger side a little long)




I cut some 3x13-14" 1/8" flat and used the press brake to make it into an "L" that will climb up the side of the tub 2" and also come across the bed to pick up the rear body mount bolt.

I used the lathe (first time!) to turn down some 1.75x.120 DOM


So it will be a slip-fit into the 2x.120 cage.

I'll use a small slug welded to the "L" 1/8" flat for the lower mount of the cage, and on the passenger side I'll take an inch or two out of the "rear sloping" section and shorten it to bring the "rearmost down turn/mount" back inside the body.

I should have brought the horizontal section of the cage back further - I will need to "hoop" the spreader above the rear seat to bring it above and behind where the bend is, in case someone like me (6'0") sits in the back seat, so they don't smack their head on the bar.

The girls would be fine for a long time..

I want to get a 1" body lift in place, then I'm thinking of coming off the side bars around where the bend is, or just in front of it, and come down at a slight angle inboard to a bushing mount on top of the shock hoop (and thus, tied into the frame).

This would give me something like a "W" in the rear hoop, if you cut out the middle inverted-V.

I don't want to do a full X at that point, since I think the girls will hit their heads, but these slight angle-in bars would then become the upper mount for 3pt harnesses for the back seat.

(I might also find the pair of bucket seats I swear I have in storage and use them still)

Then I need to figure out how to go about mounting a net or other device behind the seat to help keep the other crap where it belongs.

On that front, I'm thinking of running a bar from the rear leg to the B-hoop, just below the hardtop to tie that together (and perhaps be a platform for something else) - that would then give me a good spot for a just-behind-the-seat low back-bar. I could then tie off to that "low back bar" and come up and back to the roof spreader, and net that entire area.

The back seat will still fold-and-tumble, too, for solo trips. I get a bonus spot "in the cab" for a cooler or whatever else.

I measured and marked the current tie-rod for where I need to bend it to clear the oil pan while clearing the springs - turns out, there's only 2-3" of room on either side to start and finish the bend. We'll see how that works out.. I'll need to make sure I get the center "drop" section exactly the right width/length. I can always cut the far ends to length before welding in the inserts, but I'd rather not have to cut, sleeve/plug, and weld the center of the bar, too.
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:15 AM   #81 (permalink)
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The dropped ends would be a help if I went to a double-drilled arm and brought the draglink to the knuckle. I don't think they have a long, tapered, dropped end.

If I can bring the tie-rod forward around 2", it will clear the FRONT of the pan, and I won't have to lower the tie-rod (except it ALSO wants to get into the pitman arm).

Dropping the tie-rod, as you have shown, would alleviate the clearance problem all around.

I'm currently looking to flip the arms, probably with a spacer involved, and putting the tie-rod UNDER the arms.

That's the cheapest and most expedient solution. (Along with slicing the oil pan if it can be sliced)

At some point, I can look at a longer arm that might put the tie-rod in front of the pan and away from the pitman arm, but I'm afraid it'd be a wash, since moving the tie-rod forward just moves it more into the drop of the pitman arm and if I lower it at the same time (to miss the pitman) it just gets into the spring.

There's a fine line to walk here.

A bend in the tie-rod that brings it forward to clear the front of the pan would work awesome, too - as long as the hydraulic assist doesn't bend the tie-rod. I probably have enough 1.5x.250 DOM left to do that.

I hope to make another short trip with the Scout this week, then get some help over to swap tops and such and then get it into the shop for a while for the gas/FI swap, address the steering/bump stops, etc so I can work on it in the warmth out of the snow.
This cleared everything including hummer wheels in Scout II with Dana 44 front SOA with 3 inch bump stop. I think this drawing was the first and we added 1/4 inch to 4.5 inch measurment. Scout drove and felt like a stock scout steering feel as well with 36 inch tires. Full steering right and left at full stuff. Could be adapted to Dana 60.
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:45 AM   #82 (permalink)
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This cleared everything including hummer wheels in Scout II with Dana 44 front SOA with 3 inch bump stop. I think this drawing was the first and we added 1/4 inch to 4.5 inch measurment. Scout drove and felt like a stock scout steering feel as well with 36 inch tires. Full steering right and left at full stuff. Could be adapted to Dana 60.
So you moved the tie-rod completely behind the oil pan? And above the driveshaft? And out of the way of the exhaust (including the headers)?

That's long lever on the knuckle to pull that off, but it is something to consider further.
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Old 11-04-2011, 12:05 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Did not have headers so I don't know? It was still up front. Tried the behind the axle tie rod but no way to clear oil pan...

We tried to keep the original steering geometry so it felt like a Scout II. It did. Although the drag link and tie rod holes were moved in (shorter overall lengths).

Bonus on doing this was the power/leverage from box to steer, no need for hydraulic steering assist. Regular high steer arms are shorter than stock so power/leverage from box is less, steering ratio is less, driving needs more turn of wheel to correct. Of course I had the frame re enforced and boxed around steering box. No wandering at highway speeds or winding roads, drove very nice. Part of that was Chevy 3/4 ton Dana 44 axle has 6 degrees at knuckle. Driveline angle at pinion IIRC was 9 degrees and the axle bolts in to springs. measurments were off by 1/4 inch. I opened up holes to oval, when bolted in used a 1/2 inch plate welded to ubolt plate so scout springs were in tight against ubolts.

It was awhile ago I did this but IIRC I added the three inch bump stop so TR or DL didn't hit something if I bottomed out both sides like after a jump. not to clear full stuff right and left. wheel wells were cut out almost as big as yours. With steering stops on axle I think I needed a full turn or 2 more than stock to limit steering so tire would not hit spring. But even with a full size axle and hummer wheels and 36 inch tires they only stuck out an inch.

Was sweet off road as you never had to worry about something hitting if turned R/L full stuff or full droop or full bottom out.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:03 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Here's the only pic I could find...
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Old 11-05-2011, 11:03 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Here's the only pic I could find...
I think it's a good idea, Mark, if I can find a Dana 60 arm with a single hole at 10" or so from the kingpin, or a double-hole arm with one hole at around 10" and another at 13".

Not many places seem to advertise their lengths, and most are close to the 7" or so these arms are.

BTW, if you turn the tires without the engine running, it apparently doesn't force fluid into the ram from the other side, and so the power steering reservoir overflows and shoots p/s fluid everywhere.

Just FYI.
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Old 11-05-2011, 11:33 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Just an idea... measurments are ther and if Marlo who does the HyBrid Distributors had a 60 arm could do one for it...
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:33 AM   #87 (permalink)
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A steering arm with that much inset will create some pretty bad ackerman angle. During a turn the outside tire will turn more than the inside tire. Makes a truck turn like a TTB ford with too much toe in
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:32 AM   #88 (permalink)
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here is a nice alternative for you. many other options but this or something similar will allow you to move the tie rod under the leaf springs but higher than the crappy chevy knuckles would normally have it sit..

taken from ultimate adventure cj-6 build thread

I struggled with placement of the Tie rod/Drag link/Panhard Rod. I am using a Scout Box, and started out with RND Customs High Steer (OTT Arms there availible if anyones intrested) but they were too High for the geometry of my frame/setup. I had no up travel.

So now I changed, and bought Reid Knuckles and Artec Arms (5 studs) which moved the tie rod farther forward, and allowed me to put the tie rod at the hight that best suits what I'm doing. It also gave me more room for the panhard rod (which if I do a bent one should get me to a better angle), although I still might need a bent pan hard Rod, and the Drag Link is at a good angle. I will also likely need to notch the frame at the front to get the 6" of up travel I want.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:22 PM   #89 (permalink)
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A steering arm with that much inset will create some pretty bad ackerman angle. During a turn the outside tire will turn more than the inside tire. Makes a truck turn like a TTB ford with too much toe in
That's a Sweet build!

Back to ackerman angles. Once a rumor starts on the internet it spreads like gospel truth. Fact is a perfect ackerman angle starts at center of rear axle and goes straight to front pivot angle which is outside of ball joint and proceeds to tie rod. Even if you did it wrong like internet rumors and went to ball joint you can;t acheive this. No car has ever had this, even new cars with wheels offset more than hummer wheels can not acheive this.

Waht cause more tire wear and bad handleing is wheels sticking out far past pivot point. Hummer wheels put the pivot point near center of steer. This is another reason this scout could do full stuff and full turn without hitting firewall and front fender/bumper. If it had 10 wheels and stock offset tires would swing WAY out. These pivoted. Also stock steering stops hit at full turn right and left proving steering was close to what stock was. If akerman angle was chnaged as much as people fear from internet rumors then one would hit steering stop and the other would not.

Back to the scout this was on. 10K+ miles on a new set of Super Swampers with 3 tire rotations and had a perfect wear pattern. I got more tire wear from street driving at 2-3 pounds after a snow run...

Unless you want to run hummer wheels stock the arm I made is not needed. One other scout I know had 3/4 ton axles and hummer wheels and he built a very short arm to fit barely inside wheel. No that had horrible tire scrub and handleing...
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:22 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Proper Ackerman is important, and could be a difference maker at times, but it's also difficult to achieve.

The Scout II's Ackerman angle was fouled up when it left the factory - they used the same knuckles, tires, pitman arm, box, draglink, etc. for both the 100" wheel base Scout II and for the 118" WB Terra and Traveler.

Since proper Ackerman angle is dependent upon wheelbase, either one, the other, or both wheelbases had screwed up Ackerman.

Might explain why women and children used to run from me while making slow turns in a hot parking lot and the front tires would chirp at 5mph.

As I was telling Robert on the phone yesterday, the problem is putting 10lbs of crap in a 5lbs bag.







As he and I were chatting today, perhaps one of the better solutions is to move the tie-rod back to the stock location, run the draglink to the knuckle, and then move the ram.

Moving it straight up doesn't really help, since the ram will hit the pitman arm - and it's even fatter than the tie-rod which means it has less clearance for up-travel.

I would have to move the ram to behind the axle.



Which, if I go high enough to pick up the high-steer arm (now coming rearward) probably puts the ram into the oil pan.

There isn't a mid-height mount on the back side of the knuckle, which would otherwise be ideal.

(You can see the ram's current mount on the front of the axle visible at the right of that picture, about where the oil pan is)

Tie-rod can't go behind the axle because of the oil pan.

A 10" (king pin to TRE) long arm would likely get the tie-rod in front of the oil pan, but would still have the tie-rod hitting the pitman arm, and getting further into the arch of the spring, I have less opportunity to lower the tie-rod without hitting the spring.

Moving just the draglink forward to a second hole in the steering arm, and then putting a --__-- bend into the tie-rod coming FORWARD has appeal. That puts the tie-rod in front of the pan, and by bending forward I don't have to worry about getting the "bottom" of the bend just right so the tie-rod clears the pan at full left/right, and also clears the spring at the same. The draglink has to come forward, however, since the bowed-forward tie-rod would fight with it.

I'm going to have to try a few combinations with it all sitting on jack stands in the shop before i get this sorted out..

There's also still the chance that, once I get one of these engines put together enough, I can check the clearance on the oil pan and figure out if I can cut a notch in the front/bottom of the pan to get me some more clearance.

There's only 4" available before the Dana 60 hits the oil pan, but dang if that doesn't seem like an important four inches!

So, I have what's on there now.

I have a pair of 1" spacers (to flip the arms upside down and lower the tie-rod 1").

I have another short end reamed for the T-steer and coming UP from underneath.

I have inserts for the 1.5x.250 DOM I have on hand.

I have access to a 1.5 die for my JD2 to put a "U" in the DOM.

I haven't found any 10" long arms. I'm not ready to machine my own yet - I was thrilled to make some chips turning down that 1.75x.120 DOM, but haven't bought any milling cutters yet.

I'm still fooling with the cage and getting ready for the fuel injection - and have two engines to build. Once I button up at least the cage and such, I'll see about tearing into the front end some more..
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Old 11-08-2011, 05:41 AM   #91 (permalink)
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The artec arms posted above are super sweet and probably would cure your problems.I know their spendy but definately worth a look.
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:13 AM   #92 (permalink)
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You know Tom I have a quick ratio orbital valve, one turn lock to lock. You get full travel and quick steering, bonus your wheelin ASAP On the Ground Equipment they use the same ram you have hooked to the tie rod bar and the orbital valve for the steering DONE.
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:27 AM   #93 (permalink)
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you are right about not being able to achieve perfect ackerman. And it really will not affect normal driving as long as you have proper ackerman.

the most important thing to know about ackerman is that your inside tire turns slightly more than your outside tire in a turn.

the dana 44 arms originally posted will make the rt side tire turn shorter than the lt side tire when making a lt turn and vice versa.

Twisted Customs purposefully builds bad ackerman into the front axles they use in rock crawling competition cars. In a turn this will make the outside tire force the front axle to turn sharper even when the front locker wants to push the car straight. It does however make for some really sketchy handling on high speed curves!

Tie rod in the factory location and run the ram from the housing to the tie rod will be your easiest and most cost effective solution.

here is a pick of the "bad ackerman" on Hal Frost's buggy. the passenger tire is turned sharper than the drivers tire. With the big spider trax knuckles it makes for rediculous tight turning
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Old 11-14-2011, 08:17 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Tie rod in the factory location and run the ram from the housing to the tie rod will be your easiest and most cost effective solution.
I agree. When I first eyeballed it, I thought the tie-rod would hit the ram, but I'm going to have to give it a try.



I have been fooling with the cage at the moment, trying to wrap that up and get the fuel tank installed and the FI wired before I tackle the steering.




With the slug tacked in place, I was able to finish welding it to the mounting foot and painted the underside, re-installed, re-set the height, then tacked, removed, and welded.



With the top jacked up a little, I was able to overshoot the B-hoop and then slide the bar back and down into place, which is why I was able to weld the bottom foot on outside of the Scout and get all the way around the tube.







I wound up having to do a tube-splice on the passenger side diagonal, since it was too long. I cut probably 4-5" though it was in many small increments before the length was right.

I then used more of the 1.75x.120 to stand the leg up off the floor similar to how I did the driver's side, but with the slug rather tall (4-5") this time, I also slid some of the left over 2x.120 over the slug a) because I had it and b) it should add some strength going to 2x.230 wall or so.

I thought I was done for now, until I remembered I need to drill and sleeve the B hoop for shoulder belts, so that'll happen later this week.

I need to get the 1" body lift in place, and the rear seat affixed better, before I do much else with the rear cage. I may just wait until Spring when I take the top off completely (and my shop is less cluttered).

I want to add a crossbar behind the rear seat, and I want to come down to the shock hoop for a frame-tie in - and a good place to put the 3pt shoulder mounts for the back seat, too.

At this point, the cage is better than anything I had in the old Scout (always just a Giddum Up Scout 4pt rollbar)
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:06 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Drilled, sleeved, welded for an upper mount for 3pt belts.



Then put on a 1" body lift - the nerf bars were too close to the rocker and I couldn't actually get my foot on them, plus I wanted the extra room while plumbing the fuel injection and to help "crud" pass THROUGH the body mount instead of getting caught.

Might even mean the air cleaner fits under the hood..







Now to get the 33gal fuel tank, fuel lines, filler and vents, and the fuel injection pump mounted and plumbed..
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:45 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Those wheels are BA! nice build/rig
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:25 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by plays4keeps View Post
Those wheels are BA! nice build/rig
I must need some O rings.. as cool as these wheels are, I am not impressed by their inability to hold air.
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:43 AM   #98 (permalink)
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I started with a running, driving Scout.. I drove it to the previous M4x4A Delegates meeting back in October.

I ran another one this past Saturday. I haven't driven the SnowScout since October.

But, in the spirit of progress, I managed to make the Scout even less driveable over the weekend as I ripped out the steering linkage that was causing me great consternation.

The tie-rod is back in the stock location, and the ram will clear the tie-rod at full left/full right (I was afraid there might not be enough room).

The high-steer arms brought the tie-rod mounts in a touch, so while I was able to adjust the tie-rod to the right width, the adjusting/clamping sleeve has me concerned with the two ends turned "out" so much.

I will fabricate a short (but longer) adjusting sleeve from some 1.5x.250 DOM and inserts and switch to jam nuts.

I also expect to fab another tie-rod from the same 1.5x.250 DOM before too long, but I'll use a relatively long TRE on the driver's side with the reamed hole for the ram to engage.

(I have a spare one of these, but it was purchased with the taper going the wrong way, since I was going to raise and flip the high steer arms to lower the tie-rod).

Anyhow.. the plan is to re-mount the ram to the tie-rod and not the knuckle.

I need to shorten the ram - there was no adjustment left in the TREs to shorten it enough.

There also isn't enough threaded length left in the piston to just slice an end off, so it's time I start learning about the insides of the 2" ram - anyone have a good tutorial handy?

I wanted to adjust the overall travel to get it "on" as well, so this is a good time.

I need to remove about 4" from the overall collapsed length of the ram + TREs.

I may just union the two hydraulic lines back together for the time being and run without the ram assist. This would at least let me drive it to work and get some tuning done with the FI.

I will also need to make up a new draglink, since the "T" system used a shorter draglink, which now needs to go all the way to the high steer arm.

I ordered new boots, since all of the TREs either didn't have a boot, or had half a boot.

On the FI side, the 33gal fuel tank is installed, the fuel pump is mounted, and I have fuel to the front body mount. I need to run the lines up the firewall to the engine bay.

I would probably be done with the FI harness, but I'm still hesitant to cut until I'm certain, and I'm untangling it a bit again, but it's not too far off.

The Dana 20 seems to be holding oil, so the slick underneath must be from the rear main. I'm not sure if I"m happier about that or not.
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:11 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm1mt View Post
I must need some O rings.. as cool as these wheels are, I am not impressed by their inability to hold air.
I wonder if those are the same size as the H1 o-rings.
there's a place on line that has them for a $1 each if you order 10.
I would have to search as I post that info like 4 years ago.
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:19 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R290 View Post
I wonder if those are the same size as the H1 o-rings.
there's a place on line that has them for a $1 each if you order 10.
I would have to search as I post that info like 4 years ago.
I guess for $1 each, I could spring for 10. I have 6 H1 16.5 wheels here, too..

Your old Post from 2007

Thanks for the tip!
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