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Old 06-21-2012, 11:06 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R290 View Post
Differential fluid capacity - 6 pints (3.4 liters) 80w90 hypoid gear lube
From Billavista tech page

That's what I do vs fill to the fill plug which is on top of the cover. But you could add 6 pints and then find the level and drill a small hole for service checking. I might even do that as currently service checking is drain and fill.
That's where I got my fill-level, and that's what I put in.

But, as you've found, now that some leaked out, how do I know how close to the right amount I'm at?

Thus, I need to drill a weep hole for checking the level.

I would put it at about the same spot as the factory fill hole was. That should be close enough.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:37 AM   #152 (permalink)
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Boring stuff, but since it seemed to leak so much oil that I couldn't get a 2 mile test drive in without adding more oil on the way home, and it was making my shop a mess..

I R&R'd the rear main.

Conveniently, my HF tranny jack at max extension was just the right height for the SOA/38" shod Scout II.

I belted the T19 and Dana 20 to it, removed the rear shaft, and the lower U-bolts on the front 'shaft, removed the crossmember, supported the engine, removed the transmission shifter, then accessed the four nuts that hold the transmission to the bellhousing and slid everything back.

I wound up removing the Dana 20 shifter partway down, and all went well until the tranny jack went over backwards. It was a controlled descent.. I helped break it's fall.

I was then able to unhook the clutch linkage and remove the bellhousing and put it aside, then the clutch and flywheel.







What a pain to get the seal out without dropping the pan. It involved much cussing and chisel and hammer - which damaged the before-unknown speedi-sleeve already on the crank.

So.. this is what a speedi-sleeve looks like with the installer.






The "tin cup" is the installer tool. Slide the sleeve inside, clean the crank, a little Permatex #2 on the sleeve, then fit over and hammer away.

(I was later shown you should "notch" the flared ring before installing to make removal easier)

Once it's driven in, you need to remove the flared ring. I didn't the first time - so I did the rear main seal TWICE just for fun.

Also, the sleeve is still too long. It overhangs the crank a little.


If you then bolt the flywheel up, it smashes the lip over.

This could cause runout on the flywheel because the mounting surface isn't flush any more.



So.. take a grinder and clean that stuff up!

If, like me, you do that and then realize you really should have removed the flange from behind the seal - and then remove the brand new rear main seal so you can try to snap that install flange off, you'll find that the sleeve walks a little while removing the flange and you have to re-grind a second time.

Eventually, however, you can get the seal installed.

I used to use a roll of tape as the inner spacer for the seal, but found this old soup cup from CostCo that, when cut at the right spot, fit perfectly - too perfect, I had to break the cup bottom to get it out, but I have another.



So, over more than two weeks, I removed the old seal, removed the old sleeve, installed the new sleeve, installed the new seal, installed the flywheel, removed the flywheel, ground the extra sleeve off, reinstalled the flywheel and clutch, removed the flywheel and clutch, removed the new seal, removed the flange on the speedi-sleeve, ground the sleeve again, installed a second new seal, installed the flywheel, clutch, and then the rest of it.

Ugh.

When I put it all back in, I installed the JB twin-stick kit that came with the Scout. It took 3 or 4 sessions with the torch to get the shifters "right" and I opened up the tunnel cover.

I also bolted the transmission top down - it was barely held in place.

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Old 09-04-2012, 10:53 AM   #153 (permalink)
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In other news, I got the upper seat belt mounts for the rear seats sleeved and welded.. only to determine I need to do another set down low.



This is for the shoulder pivot. I left the sleeves long - the belts mount to the outside, but the inside could be a tie-down.

I'm adding another set "down low" above the shock hoop bar but below the seat back.

I don't have room to put the retractors between the seat and the upright. I don't want to put the retractors to the rear of the upright (that intrudes on cargo room and they'll get beat up), so the right answer is to mount the retractor to the upright, facing to the "outside" so the belt will run parallel with the upright. The retractor goes below the seat back to keep it somewhat safe and and use otherwise wasted space above the shocks, between the upright and wheel well, against the seat back.

With that "done" (until I decided to sleeve the lower mounts), I cleaned the shop and moved the Scout out for a bit.

I need to decide where to put the turn signals.

This spot is convenient, but I feel it's too "close" to the middle.



I like here, closer to stock, better.



These are surface mount lights, so I'll make one or two "L" brackets, and bolt to the bumper. I may angle them slightly.


The broom stick handle is there for mock up. The 8274 has a gap at the bottom front - my current shovel handle won't fit, but a "thick" broomstick handle does. I need to find a new shovel..



On my last drive to the corner store, I thought the brakes were dragging.

When I pulled it out, it held still with the engine running, but when I shut it off, it coasted forward.

Turns out, I had two things wrong with the hydroboost.

First, the return lines were T-d, which isn't a huge deal, but I guess you should run the steering on the "straight through" and the hydroost return comes in perpendicular. Otherwise, you get some back pressure on the 'boost line and it auto-engages.

Second, I added two coolers into the mix, but did them at the wrong point relative to the hydroboost and the T.

The solution was to remove the plug I put into the extended filler neck (originally for an auxiliary reservoir) and ran the hydroboost return direct to the reservoir, and eliminated the T on the power steering line.

That solved my "feels like the brakes are dragging" problem.

I went for another short drive around my field and it ran poorly.

Got back, removed the ECM and replaced with a stock 1227747 for a 350 and then proceeded to tear down the road.

Either the ECM I installed the Ostrich in is bad, or the Ostrich is bad. I can make it work sometimes for a while, but it regularly (as now) goes into limp-home mode. I replaced the battery on the Ostrich with no apparent change..

I can go back to log, burn, install, repeat. I'll try the 8274 ECM I installed the Ostrich adapters into and see if it'll hold a tune - is it the ECM or the Ostrich.

Got it all back inside the shop and the only drips under it are from the Dana 20. I did notice the D20 to T19 was leaking a little, but I can live with that for now.

I think both driveshafts are a little on the short side without much slip left - I'll deal with the t'case drip for now and decide what to do about it and the 'shafts.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:26 PM   #154 (permalink)
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Great Pic Tom Pic...

We call this "The Corn Year", nothing better than giving a kid with no front teeth an ear of corn and seeing how they massacre the job of masticating.

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Old 09-04-2012, 02:41 PM   #155 (permalink)
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Great Pic Tom Pic...

We call this "The Corn Year", nothing better than giving a kid with no front teeth an ear of corn and seeing how they massacre the job of masticating.

The "Corn Year" - I like it. We had corn for dinner last night, too.

It was decent corn - grown locally. Not like what I grew up on.. *sigh* I've had some decent Albertan corn lately, but still short of my Western PA youth..

In any case, this kid has been having a "Corn Year" for at least two years. She got those two top front teeth knocked out in a barroom brawl.. er.. inflatable bouncy house.

I need to get the other pictures from the good camera - both girls decided they needed to spend some time on the creeper and have a look-see. They were still having fun looking around under the Scout even after both of them ran over their hair with the creeper and had to call for help.
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:03 PM   #156 (permalink)
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I tried to hurry up Friday night and get it road ready, but failed, much to my girls' disappointment.

So Saturday afternoon I got it put together, including throwing in Michelle's seat - fixed mounted, not tilting - and went for a drive to the corner store/gas station and some ice cream.

Got the turn signals mounted.



Experimented a bit with where to put the Hi-Lift - I think I might try laying it on the wheel well, and tucking the "point" between the rollbar and body, with the foot against the tailgate.




Got the seat belts done for the rear.



The ratchets only work when mounted vertically.

I think I need different belts - I originally had the ratchet mounted along the bar, but had to cant it to get it to work at all, and now I worry they won't release when off-camber.



So Saturday evening the girls took it for a test ride.


They approved.




I took another ride with my youngest this afternoon. We logged some fuel injection data. Did stop at the same store for bread. As we were walking in, I noticed a 4dr JK pull up, the driver and passenger got out, and both noticed the Scout at the end of the parking lot.

Now to dial in the fuel injection, wire all of the auxiliary wiring stuff (got the relay, breaker, and fuse panel mounted, and picked up a "off delay" gadget so the radio will stay on for 10 minutes after you shut it off - just like the new cars), install the radios, blah blah.

The FI is the key item.

Wiring in at least one aux outlet comes in close to that, since the laptop battery doesn't hold a charge..
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:03 PM   #157 (permalink)
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This weekend was a mixed bag.

I did get more time to wrench on it, but my critical path - tuning the FI - didn't move ahead.

I may have misaligned the rotor/reluctor when I built the distributor, and instead of being a bit "behind" (ATDC) when it lights off, I may be a bit "ahead" (BTDC) which, particularly when cold, may lead it to jump to the wrong terminal.

I'll confirm soon.

Transfer case came out and the t'case to tranny area was resealed. Now the front and rear outputs seem to be leaking (the adapter leak was worse). I hate the front CV driveshaft.

Fortunately, my mother and sister gave me a $40 Sears card for my birthday. Now to spend $50 in fuel getting to the nearest sears with a tool department that has a 7/16" 1/4" drive wobble socket.. (the 1/2" 1/4" drive universal solved my stock Scout II driveline woes)

In other news, I got the auxiliary fuse panel mounted up under the passenger dash, fed with 4gauge wire through an 80amp breaker and relay. Relay is energized from the old RADIO fuse, while the circuit panel is also optionally energized by a 20amp automatic-on/off switch.

When the battery voltage breaks over 13V or so, it engages, and when it drops below 13V, a 10 minute timer begins. The radios and such will remain on for 10 minutes, then quit.

Just like a new car.

I mocked up some mud flaps - some 2x2 angle that'll sit on the rear bumper and hang outboard enough to cover the width of the tire. Still sorting out a latch system - I basically plan to build a "C" that drops over the rear (2x4) bumper, and then probably a set-screw to go UNDER the bumper to make sure it doesn't bounce off.

I need to shim the throttle pedal out from the firewall - after adjusting the linkage to get WOT (I was only getting 50% before) I found that my lengthened clutch rod hits the accelerator when you push the clutch in. Easier to shim the accelerator from the FW than redo that piece of work..

In other news, it may be too early to tell, but I think I have a wheel hop issue. Takes off fine in granny gear, but hops badly if you try to take off in 2nd - which you should be able to do.

Robert installed a "single link" anti-wrap that relies on the front half of the springs..





A simple truss. Straight bar with two heims, and a simple crossmember.

No shackle, no second mount on the axle.

I'm starting planning for a "real" ladder bar/ anti-wrap bar.

I have room on either side right now, thanks to the glasspacks, but someday they'll probably get tossed for a quieter system.

The current crossmember is a bit "close" but would suffice (ideally, I would put the front of the anti-wrap bar at the t'case output).

I could even re-use some of the current setup if I center mounted the bar, over the pinion, which seems plausible thanks to the 14-bolt.

BTF sells a combo truss:


I could weld to that.

Or a GLO pinion guard.


These pictures really got me thinking about the feasibility.



I suppose the attachment to the truss is important. I'm debating if I buy a pinion guard and add to it, or just a flat plate with the right holes and right bend. I could add a "bolt plate" to the existing truss.

Then re-use the current upper mount, add one to the pinion snout, and build a new triangular anti-wrap and a shackle setup.

More thought is definitely needed - and some testing.

My concern is identifying that I am getting wheel hop in 2nd gear launches - and if that happens on the street, what happens when it's bound up in low range on the trail?

(I already checked, and the old ladder bar from the racer is not a good fit - but my experience with it was a very positive one on the go-fast car)
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:01 PM   #158 (permalink)
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my anti wrap thing.
#67 Works well and compact.
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:33 PM   #159 (permalink)
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Been fighting with the fuel injection or something related to it.

Sort of related, I found the T19 was dry.. put a few quarts of 50wt in it and I still hear some noise - rattles mostly, when going to compression braking or at cruise. Maybe it's the new D20 twin sticks making noise - I haven't bolted the tunnel cover down for good yet.

In any case..

Drove the Scout to town for the first time.

Went to the local HS and watched Ditchrunner's step-son play soccer.


Somehow, they could tell it was me from across the field..


BLMs were 172. It ran like crap.

Turns out, I had a 4.3L TBI installed, not a 350/5.7. I changed out the injectors.

Still had some difficulty. It "chugs" whenever I put a load on it - that's any time in 4th gear, and the low end of 2nd and third. Cleans up in 2nd, not as well in third.

My very last attempt tonight was to replace the plug wires, and either the engine was cold and that did it, or the plug wires helped. Wires WERE new Borg Warner wires, but who knows.. the NAPA Belden Premium 7mm ones on there (well, 7 of the 8) may be working better.



Rotor phasing at TDC #8


Fuel pressure remains at 15psi


This, with an old Holley TBI pump from my ProJection experiment years ago..

Did some work to keep the fuzz off.



and got the nut-certs installed and some brackets cut to hang the radios.



Cobra 29LTD Classic is "backwards" with the Icom 706 "normal" - I won't be able to see the 706 display without leaning back. I put tabs to hang the D710A radio unit above the rear view mirror, between the windshield and bar.
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:41 PM   #160 (permalink)
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Tom take 5 minutes and tighten the off road lights, and put a hood scoop on the truck Please.
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Old 09-24-2012, 06:21 AM   #161 (permalink)
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Tom take 5 minutes and tighten the off road lights, and put a hood scoop on the truck Please.
The one light is off kilter because I did tighten it enough to keep it from flopping.

Michelle decided she didn't like the black hood scoop.

I called the paint shop, and while the 79 Mint Green is a good color number, they don't have a modern formula for it, so I have to get the Scout driving well enough to get it to the paint store for a computerized color match so I can buy some paint.

I will then paint the black hood scoop Mint Green, and paint the tailgate while I'm at it.

That is the only reason the hood scoop isn't installed yet.

I'm still hoping I can get that done while it's still warm enough to paint.. (my shop is heated by a huge gas forced air furnace - not a great plan for much indoor painting)

I did get the square windows out of Tigger's old doors. I've held off changing out the door glass, because while I have the doors apart I need to install the speakers, and making the thing run has been more important than the tunes.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:14 PM   #162 (permalink)
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So, here's a tip - don't let your fuel pressure gauge sit on the intake..



I couldn't get things to run right. Ultimately, after two sets of "stock-like" plug wires (one Borg Warner set, one Napa 7mm) I went to the store and bought a Prestolite (male terminal) distributor cap (for my Holley distributor) and installed it, along with a set of plug wires for a 1987 Chevy V30 454 FI truck.

No more chugging under load, with lots of popping and snapping out of the exhaust, and the occasional "shudder" when it would misfire.

Instead, it got squirrelly leaving my driveway in 2nd gear, lighting up both rear tires and leaving a big trench - that's a good start.

Tonight was supposed to be tuning night, and I hurried home to remove the fuel pressure gauge assembly, remove the bikini top, and grab the laptop.

Instead..



So I pulled the spring pack. First, I had to put my Travelette back together - I was resealing the tailhousing mount - using thread sealer on the bolts - to keep it from leaking. My jack was holding the transmission.. and I needed it.

So, after dark, the springs came out and so forth.



Unfortunately, I had a little difficulty when I went to line up the center pin..



Looks like the stock shock mounts needed to be removed.
Robert - do you still have a stock pile of those IAS shocks around - and could I buy one? Or get a part #?

It's 16 or 16.5" compressed.

So much for my FI tuning session.
But hey, since I have the tire off..




I had to grind the knuckle in four spots, just a bit, to get the shaft to go in with only a bit of persuasion.



The spindle is back on. I need to look up the torque values from BV's bible before I finish buttoning it back up.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:53 AM   #163 (permalink)
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I have a few of those shocks left, guess I will toss one in the box with your 196.

Torque is GNT~good n tight. Just get on with it I have an intrest in seeing you race again while I am still able to go to a race track
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:54 AM   #164 (permalink)
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Have you made a decision on a traction bar yet? I am curious to see what you come up with. The traditional ladder style with a shackle caused serious spring bind and stiffened the rear suspension on mine. The Bam Bar would let the axle move more freely. I went with an upper and lower link but haven't had a chance to try it yet.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:56 AM   #165 (permalink)
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I have a few of those shocks left, guess I will toss one in the box with your 196.

Torque is GNT~good n tight. Just get on with it I have an intrest in seeing you race again while I am still able to go to a race track
Send me a bill.

I'm interested in racing again, too.. even made the slightest progress on that front recently.

This morning I realized at least part of why I trashed the shock.



I failed to realize the spring had been re-drilled and the front axle was no longer centered.

So now I have to pull the leaf spring back out and redrill and re-install..
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:06 AM   #166 (permalink)
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Apparently, it's either been a long while, or I've forgotten how hard it is to redrill a spring.

Thinking back on it, I think I always just enlarged the existing hole for a 3/8 center pin, and when I wanted to move the axle, I moved the hole in the perch.

..so I did just that.



Along with a matching relief in the U-bolt plate.


I then put the spring back in place, the U-bolts and so forth.

2" is about the limit on this trick - another quarter inch and I would be welding a new "edge"/lip to the perch to extend it rearward (which could be problematic when I get to the passenger side's cast perch).

Rather than "good n' tight" I pulled 100lbs-ft on the torque wrench on the U-bolts before calling it good.

65lbs-ft on the spindle nuts, 50 for the wheel bearing nut before the 1/3 back off, and 70 for the lock nut.

I have it back on the ground, and just need to install the new Yukon 35sp locking hubs and a shock and I'm back in business.

I did some digging and found that the rear shocks on Tigger are about the right length, but the bolts were securely fastened and it was too late to grab the rattle gun in the field last night.

I can yank off one of the ancient Dick Cepeks and throw it on just to make sure there's a shock. I've already identified the least damaged one. (a lot of hard miles on those shocks - first bought in 1999 or so and ran on the racer for several years, before winding up on the trail rig after I upgraded to the Bilsteins and remote reservoirs on the racer)
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Old 09-28-2012, 10:19 AM   #167 (permalink)
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Have you made a decision on a traction bar yet? I am curious to see what you come up with. The traditional ladder style with a shackle caused serious spring bind and stiffened the rear suspension on mine. The Bam Bar would let the axle move more freely. I went with an upper and lower link but haven't had a chance to try it yet.
I haven't made up my mind yet.

Rick's setup had caught my eye before he mentioned it. I read a back n' forth here on PBB about it and how it was no better than a "one-link" like I have now (one bar, one pivoting attachment at either end), and I was about to jump into a 5 year old fray when I finally was convinced the analysis is somewhat correct.

The "bam-bar" or whatever is better than a "one-link" but (on paper!) is inferior to a ladder-bar + shackle.

The short answer is both keep the axle from rotating, which is good (and why I thought they were the same)

HOWEVER, with the "horizontal" shackle, you still rely on the leaf spring to keep the axle in the right spot (you're compressing the front half of the spring, trying to shove the axle forward) - but you don't get any anti-squat, which is good.

With a vertical shackle, the ladder bar helps locate the axle fore/aft, and instead the ladder bar induces anti-squat, but it doesn't try to buckle/compress the spring.

With my current setup, it not only tries to move the axle forward, but it also tries to S the spring when the pinion climbs by putting great pressure on the leaf spring perch - a lot like it would do without the bar.

I do have some wrap-up. I need to fix my throttle - my clutch linkage extension for the 1" body lift is a little fat, so when you press the clutch, it bumps the throttle (rubs the accelerator).

When the Scout is running right (which my last trip, it was), you can feather it in 1st to take off, but if you hurry the shift to 2nd it's still at high RPM and you get wheel hop climbing into second from a roll.

Letting the engine drop back to idle on the shifts would help, but I'm still more worried about what happens when I'm wheeling and apply power in a tight spot.

In any case.. I haven't fired up the welder yet, but I'm hoping to cheat and run a short ladder bar with shackle.

(I ran a long one on the old racer, putting the shackle next to the rear output of the Dana 20 - worked great, and made it driveable in 2wd)

I want to run it center mounted, so I can still put "real" mufflers on, thus it has to be short - it all has to be behind the "step"

I need to get some 5" wide 1/4" plate to notch for the pinion and pick up the pinion support bolts, then bend in the brake to somewhat follow the diff snout up.

I'll put a bushing on that plate.

Take the current bar and relocate the front heim to above the crossmember that was added for it, put more tabs on there, and a short shackle putting the top of the bar above the cross member but below the floor, having the shackle swing forward almost into the step perhaps.

I'll then add a second bar, Y-ing into first and down to the pinion snout plate.

I have a couple of inches of up-travel room available to work with, so the horizontal shackle with tall mount would work, too. IIRC I have 2-3.5" of up-travel in the rear, but about 2" more than that of room as it stands.

(I already added a second set of shock mounts in the rear, but won't be changing the compression point - the tires come close to the body when the shocks bottom out, so that's where I'll leave it - but I could get more droop)

I think the horizontal shackle would be a big step up from what I have, but I'm tempted to do the vertical shackle.

And yes, linking it came to mind.. but I've owned this Scout over a year now and have yet to wheel it. As Robert reminded me, I have a racer taking up my other bay and needing attention.. I haven't even watched a race this year (well, except the Monster Trucks)
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:07 AM   #168 (permalink)
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I don't know if I am smoking crack or not...BUT...am I the only one that doesn't like the location of your new spring center and where you drilled your hole?

I guess I have never seen one that far back, and it frightens the hell out of me when I look at it.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:17 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Harvester of Sorrow View Post
I don't know if I am smoking crack or not...BUT...am I the only one that doesn't like the location of your new spring center and where you drilled your hole?

I guess I have never seen one that far back, and it frightens the hell out of me when I look at it.
It made me nervous, too, but ultimately no.

Here's why.

The spring center pin does not locate your axle.

At least, it shouldn't.

It should keep the spring pack together, and make sure you locate the axle in the right spot when you assemble it, but after that - no.

You shear center pins when your U-bolts get loose, because the center pin can't take the stress of keeping your axle in place. It just can't.

So what keeps the axle in place?

The clamping force of the U-bolts holding the springs to the perch. (Which is why I opted for the torque wrench over my calibrated elbow)

I believe you would be just fine if you removed the center pin, then assembled the vehicle and torqued the U-bolts to spec. If you got the axle in the right spot, you wouldn't have one lick of trouble not running a center pin (beyond the difficulty of keeping the spring pack together during assembly)

If I had moved it back any farther, however, I would have cut the reinforcing lip of the perch, and THAT would cause me concern over having the perch bend/fail, which is why I mentioned I considered welding a new rear lip in place, but ultimately didn't have to.

If I'm wrong, someone pipe up and I'll take some corrective action.. but I think the clamping force is where it's at, and the center pin is a poor backup.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:17 AM   #170 (permalink)
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I guess I have never seen one that far back, and it frightens the hell out of me when I look at it.
X2 I wouldn't do that either!
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:28 AM   #171 (permalink)
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So your using an old spring pack with old worn out bushings with the old 5/16 centering pin and old stretched u-bolts torqued to 100ft lbs. And you drilled the pearch further back and wanna run some 20 year old shocks .

OK.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:57 AM   #172 (permalink)
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So your using an old spring pack with old worn out bushings with the old 5/16 centering pin and old stretched u-bolts torqued to 100ft lbs. And you drilled the pearch further back and wanna run some 20 year old shocks .

OK.

OK, so which part concerns you?

I'm replacing a newer SHOT leaf spring pack with SHOT bushings with an older, but better condition set of leaf springs with better bushings.

I have new bushings to install, but these ones were in good shape, and I have two different spring packs I'm considering - I put the softer pack in. I have another pack that looks to be from an XLC Scout, but if I don't need to use them, that's better (lower ride height), so I'm holding the new bushings in reserve until I make my decision.

The shackle mount has new bushings.

It now has new shackles, too.

The U-bolts are 5/8 and all-but new. They have <100 miles on them, and have been torqued three times - once by Robert, and now twice by me. These are not 30 year old factory U-bolts.

Do you replace your U-bolts after every trial assembly? What about the studs on the passenger side?

I want to run a 15 year old shock while I wait for the replacement new shock to arrive. The other shock is probably 2-3 years old, but all of those three years have been spent sitting in a shop. Consider it "new old stock"

So I'll throw the likely-shot 15 year old shock on so I can get back to tuning the fuel injection. My first plan was to just leave it off

I guess none of this really matters, since the frame is 33 years old.. but it's the newest one I have.

So, the only thing from that list that bothers ME is the re-drilled center hole in the perch, and aside from the knee jerk "ick" response.. what's the failure mode here? I want to understand, and there's definitely still time to change it - I just want to understand the specifics of why it's a bad idea.

Does drilling a second hole through the springs, and weakening the pack, improve my situation?

Most center-pin shearing situations occur when going forward, right? I have MORE material I need to "drive" the center pin through than most people - which doesn't matter, since the pin will shear first, and the failure mode is to shear against the now double-thick (going almost all the way from the rear to the front) perch.

If your argument is I'll be gettin' it in reverse, then there's not as much meat there and there is a chance the 30 year old center pin will tear through the 1/4" or so thick by 1/2"+ tall "strap" at the rear of the perch, but it's more likely the pin will shear.

It's also more likely a new 3/8 pin will shear before the back of the perch will, but maybe that's a toss up.

If your argument is I should upgrade the center pin, I can work with that.

But the center pin is not a tight interference fit into the center pin hole and thus is prone to shearing UNLESS you have the U-bolts tight at which point the center pin is just extra unsprung weight.


All of that said.. if everyone's concerned about the strength remaining in the last bit of perch:


Would you change your opinion if I welded some strap to the rear of the perch to add material?

Would you add 1/2x1/8 strap? 1/2x1/4? A chunk of 1x1 solid? How much is enough?

(Really, this side doesn't bother me - I can always build an old box-tube perch that's 12" long and offset the pin.. what bugs me is how would I fix the passenger side cast-perch)

I could grab the 1/4" lowering block from a stock Scout, drill a second hole, bolt it into the pack, and have one "through" center pin (at the same spot in the perch) and a little nubbin to the front courtesy of the IH lowering block but... that feels a lot like running front blocks.

Variation on that would be to weld a chunk of 1/4" plate to the current perch with the hole offset and make it all a little longer, while adding another 1/4" of lift.

All of which can be done, I'm just trying to put a little engineering analysis in play rather than making busy work for myself because PBB said I needed more triangulation. (and before anyone starts: I already removed most of the triangulation in the cage, and I did it on purpose and with full knowledge)
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:58 PM   #173 (permalink)
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I really am interested in hearing an explanation of why moving the pin hole in the perch that far (or more correctly, that close to the edge) is an issue.

Meanwhile, no one is going to fry me for not even bothering to turn the center pin over?



I've known for years that if you setup your perch for a 3/8" center pin (needing a 9/16 or 5/8 recess for the head) you can also run the unaltered nut of a 5/16 center pin in the same recess.

I also know such short cuts are good to ~100mph as long as your U-bolts are tight, and it also works just fine on the trail.
Until I put the ladder bar in the old racer, leaf springs were a very consumable wear item.

I could permanently deform a set of springs into an S after one weekend of drag racing. All four corners.

I stopped flipping center pins, and I stopped installing new bushings when I was just going to replace the springs again in no time..
..and it worked just fine.


I'm willing to put the new bushings in, rework the perch, even redrill the spring if this really qualifies as booty fab.

My analysis concluded this was a better approach then redrilling. If someone could explain to me where I went wrong, that would be great.
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Old 09-29-2012, 05:40 AM   #174 (permalink)
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If I'm wrong, someone pipe up and I'll take some corrective action.. but I think the clamping force is where it's at, and the center pin is a poor backup.
I agree with you, but I'm going to use your own logic against you.

You don't have much clamping force behind the perch or the spring pack where you've drilled for the center hole.

Neither your perch nor your plate extends beyond the ubolt any significant distance.

I believe you'd be entirely correct if your spring plate and perch each extended 1/2"-3/4" (or ideally closer to 1") behind the ubolt holes--and their clamping forces.

The way you've got it the spring pack WILL flex right behind the plate/perch. That's very close to where your pack is drilled for the center pin. There's a stress riser at the center pin hole since there is less material in the cross-section of the spring. On the factory setup, that stress riser is buried deep inside the perch/plate clamp. In your setup, you've got it right at the edge of the clamp.
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Old 09-29-2012, 05:45 AM   #175 (permalink)
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Would you change your opinion if I welded some strap to the rear of the perch to add material?

Perch and plate.

Would you add 1/2x1/8 strap? 1/2x1/4? A chunk of 1x1 solid? How much is enough?
Minimum 1/4" flat, or 3/16" if you box it (like the turned edges on the factory perch).


Engineering justification: If it's thick enough for the factory, it's thick enough for me.

If it bends, it wasn't thick enough. [/pbb answer]
If it bends, it should have been boxed/braced [/elegant answer]
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