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Old 09-29-2012, 07:18 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT4Runner View Post
If it bends, it wasn't thick enough. [/pbb answer]
If it bends, it should have been boxed/braced [/elegant answer]
If it survived the winter in the air, it wasn't big enough.
If it didn't survive the winter, it was too big.
Quote:

You don't have much clamping force behind the perch or the spring pack where you've drilled for the center hole.

Neither your perch nor your plate extends beyond the ubolt any significant distance.

I believe you'd be entirely correct if your spring plate and perch each extended 1/2"-3/4" (or ideally closer to 1") behind the ubolt holes--and their clamping forces.

The way you've got it the spring pack WILL flex right behind the plate/perch. That's very close to where your pack is drilled for the center pin. There's a stress riser at the center pin hole since there is less material in the cross-section of the spring. On the factory setup, that stress riser is buried deep inside the perch/plate clamp. In your setup, you've got it right at the edge of the clamp.
That I'll buy, thanks, Shawn.

So strapping behind the perch won't solve it unless I also go big on the U-bolt plate, because the concern is bending at the center pin.

Last night I started looking around at the K5 sites and how they move their axles forward a little - and finally read about the "Zero-Rate" I'd heard about but never cared to know more.

It's just a 1" lift block, with a counter sunk hole 1.5" from center, and they install a stubby center pin in the center, and the real center pin in another counter-sunk hole 1.5" fore or aft, and then bolt it all together.

The stubby center pin goes in the perch hole. The spring center pin doesn't engage the perch, just the lift block.

It only moves 1.5" though.
And that's still within the U-bolt plate.

So last night I found a chunk of 2x1 I had bought to make shims, and started building my own 2" offset "zero-rate" - I hadn't considered the need to ALSO extend the top plate to get more support/clamp around the pin.

I also need more steel, since I only had enough to make two, and I'll need four now to level out the back.

The center pin nuts are about 3/8" thick, so I don't need to use 1". Since I have to visit Pacific this morning any ways, I'm going to pick up some 3/4" bar.

I can mill a 3/8" or even 1/2" counter bore for the short center pin nuts and still have a 1/4" of material under it.

It would extend past the perch a bit and support the spring center pin hole. My thought at the moment is to have the stubby pin engage the stock perch hole, and the spring center-pin engage the new hole I made at the rear of the perch.

Now you bring up the top plate..

So with a 3/4" bar under the pack and extending off the perch.. I can make a new top plate that's longer. Run the regular U-bolts in the regular spot, and add a third square U-bolt at the rear, wrapping the 2"x0.75" solid under the spring and engaging the top plate.

I can make a mate for the passenger side and avoid welding to the cast perch.

Sound like a plan?

Then I can reconfigure all of the bump stops after I change the ride height and add 1" or so to the overall pack thickness (the front bump stops hit the U-bolt top plate).

At least it's a plan.

Thanks, Shawn.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:12 AM   #177 (permalink)
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For my front axle I moved my pin holes also but not as far as you did. I did not like the Idea of the spring bending that close to the center pin. I also made some zero rates for the rear axle that relocated it for more wheel base.
On the Traction bar issue... Do you remember the pictures that I posted in my build thread showing the bind that the ladder bar caused to the front half of the springs?? Leaf springs allow the axle to move up and down with almost NO rotation of the housing. The ladder style traction bar forces the pinion to point at the T/C output (if that is where you have it set) throughout the suspension cycle causing anti squat and compression of the front half of the springs during droop. Add the other part of the "Y" to what you have and leave the shackle off of it then cycle the suspension. You will see that the shackle end moves almost straight up and down the same distance as the axle it's self. Once you add the shackle you will see that the springs are forced to S-shape in order for the axle to droop which will cause the rear suspension to stiffen.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:45 AM   #178 (permalink)
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Makes sense to me!

I've got holes 1" and 2" from center on my FToy, but even the 1.5" hole is still inside the UBolts, and the plate (Trail-Gear) and perch (2" x 2" x 1/4" square tube cut 0'-8" long) are bigger than yours.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:05 AM   #179 (permalink)
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Makes sense to me!

I've got holes 1" and 2" from center on my FToy, but even the 1.5" hole is still inside the UBolts, and the plate (Trail-Gear) and perch (2" x 2" x 1/4" square tube cut 0'-8" long) are bigger than yours.
At 2", I'm still inside the U-bolts, but not by much.

The perch is 5" long. Well, the center pin is 2.5" from the leading edge, and I think 2.5" from the trailing edge.

Cutting the driver's perch and making a new one would be easy..

Pacific failed me again by not being open on Saturday, so another order from CdA Metals was placed today.

I bought some 1", some 3/4", and some 5/8" flat bar.

I'm sure I can manage with the 3/4", and maybe I can get by with the 5/8". Using 5/8", I can mill a 3/8" relief for the nut, and still have 1/4" of steel between the head of the relocated center pin and the nut.

I bought some 1/2", too, but I think that would require machining the nut down.

Either 6 or 7" long hunk of bar.

5" on the perch, 1 or 2" overhanging (or maybe 1.5).

One hole at 2.5" from the front, another at 4.5" from the front and leave 1.5" (at 6" OAL) or 2.5" (at 7) beyond.

The front hole gets a pocket for the nut and will have a short pin to engage the stock center hole.

Rear hole is a through-hole with a long 3/8" center bolt through the whole pack and into my new hole in the perch.

I bought some 5x3/8" flat to make the new U-bolt top plate. Instead of a stock-ish 5x5, it'll be a 5x7 or whatever matches the flat-bar.

Stock U-bolts in stock location, a single square around the bar and the spring and the plate.

That'll support the spring/clamp it around the center pin.

I don't want to go too far out, since it's also going to restrict up-travel if I get too long by impeding spring motion.

Just putting the fresher spring in added a fair bit of lift.. now I'm adding more.



(Driver's spring was replaced).

(Look Robert, I put the hood scoop on)

and I suppose after all of this, I'll decide I really should just put some RS44044 springs on it instead.. the fixed hangers have already been ripped off and rewelded by someone.

Install the 44044 "pin forward" with the shackle forward - plate the frame and make a new hanger in the stock location on the outside of the frame, move the front shackle hanger forward 1" onto the bumper that's already welded to the frame.. which would all put the axle 1.5" forward, so a small offset of the center pin and I'm in business (or.. split the difference, move the fixed hanger back 0.5" for a 1" forward shift, redrill for the other 1", and probably cheat and not move the front shackle hanger at all)

Replacing the springs with another set of stockers was supposed to be the quick and easy get-it-on-the-road fix..

Our 70+deg Fall weather is scheduled to end with a high of 37 on Wednesday and a chance of snow.. so my opportunities for top-down driving and open-air painting of the hood scoop have gone.

In other news.. I buttoned up the driver's side axle shaft change.



I had two issues. Getting the driver installed with the spring was a pain, and at one point I got the spring so cock-eyed in there it didn't work, but eventually got it assembled properly.

The second issue is the alloy shaft binds a little bit, but rotating the tire by hand with the hubs locked cleared that up (I thought the hub was catching - not going FREE, but it was just the shaft yoke)
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:55 AM   #180 (permalink)
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One set of "zero-rates" coming up.

3/4" thick flat bar, 7" long. One hole 2.5" in from the edge on both ends (and 2" apart), then a 3/4" end-mill..





In between drilling and milling and band-sawing thick chunks of bar stock, I dropped the hardtop back on, and then started notching the rear hoop.



I'm adding a short U that will extend from the "elbow" down-tubes at about the rear seat back and come straight back and tuck up against the header-panel above the hatch (where the short fiberglass cover panel would be).

I was going to add another spreader halfway between the seat-back and this one, but with the hardtop ending "in board/in front" of the tailgate, there won't be that much space between the "rear most spreader" and a second one - I can't put the second spreader at the bend, since it's too close to the rear seat.

My kids are still small, but when I sit in the rear seat, I'd ring my noggin on a bar just about anywhere but at the very rear.

Downside is, a big unbraced O between the B-hoop and the (D?) rear hoop above the kids.

Maybe I can run a single center bar front to back.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:09 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Somehow, my Scouts have been talking..

I haven't even engaged 4wd and already the axles are shaking..

Including the new 4340 Yukon 35sp hardware.





Issue? Not an issue?

I sent some to the vendor, too.

Driver's side was fine, and is installed. I haven't torn down the short side yet, so now is the time to warranty it if I need to.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:07 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Do the shafts fit through the hole in the knuckle? It looks like the inner ears will hit each other at full turn too.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:23 PM   #183 (permalink)
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Do the shafts fit through the hole in the knuckle? It looks like the inner ears will hit each other at full turn too.
I ground on the driver's knuckle a little bit to get the shafts to fit through.

I haven't torn down the passenger side yet, but expected to do the same.

I notched 4 little spots so the shaft would go in on the driver's side.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:11 PM   #184 (permalink)
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I also made more progress on the cage.





You don't realize how much the top comes in from the tailgate until you're fitting the cage up against the rear header panel.





Top is raised slightly.



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Old 11-18-2012, 07:17 PM   #185 (permalink)
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I added three tabs around the rear cage for summer antennas, and maybe a switch mount for something or other - the interior "dome" lights will be an LED string on the cage.




Because I added the rear-most uprights as an after-thought, they couldn't engage the rear legs straight on.

If I had gotten the bend in the rear legs right, I wouldn't have added the "header" bar at the very rear, but the bend is too far forward to a spreader, and if someone like me sits in the rear seat, you pretty much need to put the spreader at the rear of the top to avoid hitting your head.




On the leaf spring front - I need to grind the yoke and limit strap it..


I also wound up relieving the "zero-rate" to hide the head of the second center pin. On the driver's side I think I can get away with two pins engaging the perch, but not on the passenger side.





The plate is drilled for a square U-bolt at the rear.

I just need to make some "washers" for the studs - they're a tad too long, so some 1/2" plate is on the drill press waiting for me to punch it out to 5/8" and paint.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:09 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Good progress. Glad to see your welding hasn't gotton any better
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:04 PM   #187 (permalink)
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Good progress. Glad to see your welding hasn't gotton any better
Well, I get paid to operate a keyboard, and lately, my practice time with the welder has been extremely limited.

I have a pick up ticket from Randy's/Yukon. I just need to pull the U-joint back out and box up the stub shaft for a trip back to Washington and they'll send me a replacement.

Almost back to where the Scout is driveable again. I bought the hardboard and material for the headliner, so I need to get that done soon - just as soon as I finish installing the antennas. That involves getting Michelle out to the shop to hold the underside of the NMO - my arms are not long enough to reach both sides.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:31 PM   #188 (permalink)
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Seems what time I do get to spend on this is unproductive.

At rest/ride height, the front driveshaft is around 22deg.



and the CV binds.

Put any droop on it..




The driveshaft is hanging at just-past the limit for operation in this picture. I need more.

The good news is, I think 30 to 35deg would do the job, so Tom Wood's 1310 setup would do the job.

Now that I Just bolted the U-bolt plate down, I'm trying to decide if I really must insert some angle shims, too - and at 8-deg, they would be 3/4" thick at the tall end, which would be MORE lift and another shim between the springs and the axle. On the passenger side, I would have to weld the top /opposite shim in place, since the center pin is offset 2" in the 5/8 block.

I did get the damaged 35sp stub shaft removed - now to find a box..

On my next trip to the shop, I think I'm taking the 4" grinder and cutting a slot in the transmission crossmember so I can get to the CV bolts. My 7/16" wobble won't cut it and pulling the crossmember on the trail isn't going to be an OK solution, so I think I'll just notch it so you can get a box-end wrench on it.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:04 PM   #189 (permalink)
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Your pinion looks way low for that much lift. If you add the 8 degree shims how much caster will you have?

Is Randy's paying for your shipping cost?
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:21 PM   #190 (permalink)
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Your pinion looks way low for that much lift. If you add the 8 degree shims how much caster will you have?

Is Randy's paying for your shipping cost?
I think I'm at about 11deg of caster, if the high steer arms are any indication.

If I put 8-deg of shim in, I would be at 3deg of caster, and the pinion would be much closer to in-line with the driveshaft - just what it should be with a CV.

The front 'shaft looks to be a stock Chevy unit from what I can tell - I have another one to compare with, but haven't yet.

I think a 4xShaft 35deg unit will be needed - I can't even limit strap it when it binds at ride height, so I'm taking it out for now.

Randy's sent me a pickup ticket, so the freight is on them.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:43 PM   #191 (permalink)
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Tom that is a stock Chevy shaft, with the ram asst. steering you should be fine with min caster. Shim it drive it then see if you need to tare apart more of my work
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:45 AM   #192 (permalink)
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Tom that is a stock Chevy shaft, with the ram asst. steering you should be fine with min caster. Shim it drive it then see if you need to tare apart more of my work
If it makes you feel any better, I'm beyond tearing apart your work - I'm tearing apart my first and second reworks of your work and moving onto the third go 'round.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:01 AM   #193 (permalink)
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I am running 8 degree shims on my front putting the pinion and shaft in line with each other. I also had to do some cleanup on the double cardan. The stock chevy double cardan would stop at 25 degrees but with some light cleanup at all 10 stops its at 35 degrees.

Edit: I also have shims welded to the top plate on both sides.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:47 AM   #194 (permalink)
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I am running 8 degree shims on my front putting the pinion and shaft in line with each other. I also had to do some cleanup on the double cardan. The stock chevy double cardan would stop at 25 degrees but with some light cleanup at all 10 stops its at 35 degrees.

Edit: I also have shims welded to the top plate on both sides.
The pics are very helpful, thanks!

I have two stock Chevy front shafts I could mod.

8deg it is.

This morning I started thinking on a new plan, which was one of my originals...

There is enough frame in front of the stock hangers to move the hangers the necessary two inches. I can then eliminate the 5/8 "zero rate" and replace with an 8 degree shim and won't raise the Scout as much.

I could go RS but that would definitely require a new driveshaft and more engineering fun.

I called my insurance agent to add a new truck to my policy, and she asked about mileage on things, and Ihad to explain how the 1979 Scout only managed 8 miles in the last year..
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:15 PM   #195 (permalink)
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I think I'm at about 11deg of caster, if the high steer arms are any indication.

If I put 8-deg of shim in, I would be at 3deg of caster, and the pinion would be much closer to in-line with the driveshaft - just what it should be with a CV.

The front 'shaft looks to be a stock Chevy unit from what I can tell - I have another one to compare with, but haven't yet.

I think a 4xShaft 35deg unit will be needed - I can't even limit strap it when it binds at ride height, so I'm taking it out for now.

Randy's sent me a pickup ticket, so the freight is on them.
11 degrees is surprising. I just checked my D60 and it has about 5 degrees with the SII leaf springs. Ford diff though.

I agree with jetfxr. 3 deg should be ok. You can always fine adjust with your shackles.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:35 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Checked again after things settled, and it's at about 10deg on the steering arm.

I may just wait and check after I move the spring hangers.

The front is easy.



But the rear, with the slope of the frame, will tilt the pinion up ever so slightly as I move forward along the slope.

Rather than fab my own hangers, like I'm tempted to do, I'm going to order some from Ruff Stuff since they're having a sale. I'm going to go with the 2.5" (2.75") hangers, and I'll install a 1/2" shim with the Scout II springs. I'm not sure if the RuffStuff SII hangers are setup for the poly shoulder bushings or not, but this way I won't have to worry about it - and bonus, when I decide it's time to toss the Scout II springs for a 2.5" wide unit, I'm already set.

For the moment, it's going to sit as it is and I'll work on something else until the parts arrive.

The next time I pull the crossmember, this needs cleaned up.. but it got the job done.


The front output (and rear output) leaks - I have new seals, so I'll try that first. The original yoke was replaced with a CV version before I got it, so maybe something went wrong with the install.



Just about finished buttoning up the passenger door - now it sports square glass, and the speaker is wired. Two holes are punched for the arm rest, too.

I used the nibbler to make the hole in the door for the speaker, then the air body saw on the wood interior panel. I ran an extra wire into the door for an LED strip along the bottom.



Michelle didn't come out to help, but I did discover that a small but strong U-magnet I used on Tigger to hold the coax against the A pillar also does well to hold the underside of an NMO mount in place.

The CB antenna mount is installed. Now to find where I put the other NMO set and get the VHF/UHF hole punched.



Ironically, the CB antenna is at the front but the CB will be at the rear/B hoop, while the VHF/UHF antenna will be just above the B hoop, with the radio mounted above the windshield.

Also drilled and installed some nut-serts or riv-nuts to hang the SGC 230 auto tuner.




Right above the output, I'll put a 3/8" stud mount through the roof, and feed an 8' or better whip.

My weekend adventure also included cutting the headliner board and drilling some of the holes - I need to finish installing the antenna mounts so I can finish the hardboard before I install the headliner fabric. I need to run the coax down through the headliner to get to the radios.

I think I'm going to disassemble the CV joint for the grinding operation - I started with the carbide burr on the die grinder, but I don't have the patience for it any more. I'll tear it down and take it to the bench grinder and the 4" unit and go to town.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:20 PM   #197 (permalink)
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I am running 8 degree shims on my front putting the pinion and shaft in line with each other. I also had to do some cleanup on the double cardan. The stock chevy double cardan would stop at 25 degrees but with some light cleanup at all 10 stops its at 35 degrees.

Edit: I also have shims welded to the top plate on both sides.
What Chevy Vehicles can you get these drive shafts out of? Sorry if i missed it posed already.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:46 PM   #198 (permalink)
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The spare I have is from a 1979 K30 with an SM465, NP205 and Dana 60.

It looks like a 1980 K10-->K25 with an NP205 and SM465/TH350 is 23.938" long, while the TH400 version is 27.156" long.


The K30 stick is 23.031" with 26.281" for the TH400.

A stock Scout II front 'shaft is around 24" long with a stick, 25" with an auto.

So the Chevy front 'shaft is a 1310 CV version that is about the same length.

Get a TH400 version if you extend your wheelbase too much.
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Old 04-14-2013, 06:48 PM   #199 (permalink)
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Leaf spring mounts were moved forward 2".

New bushings.

Outboarded 0.250" while I was at it to match the Chevy 60.



8-deg shims installed - passenger side got an over/under shim.

3/8 center pins now, too.



Anti-wrap upgraded.



2x.250 runs parallel to the driveshaft.


The old "top bar"/single link now ties into the lower bar.



Mid March I even drove it out of the shop, around the field, mucked out the bay, and put it back in.



New headliner is in, too. Antenna coax routed.


Boxing in the shock mounts now to keep the exhaust fumes out of the cab.

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Old 07-10-2013, 11:52 AM   #200 (permalink)
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I really like how low it sits.
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If anyone wants to know why illegals should be kicked the hell out, ask someone that busted their ass to be here legally!
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