Daily Topic - SOA vs SUA 10/03

[jdjanda]

All right dam it, get off my back. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Here's the SOA vs. SUA debate. Don't forget to:

• Include pics of your work if you have them.
• The tire size you are running or plan to.
• What problems you ran into during the swap, or want to avoid.
• Some good solid technical info.
• Total money spent on the job.
• A reason why we have to rehash this once every couple on months.

Joe <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0">

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: jdjanda ]

[jdjanda]

All right here is my rig.

<IMG width=416 height=312 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/75Sii.jpg">

Running 4" SkyJacks, 1" rear lift shackles, stock in front. 1" body puck lift, poly body bushings, for 1.5" body lift.

Tires are 32x10.5 Radial TSL's.

Running 4" SkyJacks, 1" rear lift shackles, stock in front. 1" body puck lift, poly body bushings, for 1.5" body lift.

Tires are 32x10.5 Radial TSL's.

Why?
I bought the rig as a daily driver in Jan, so I could have a Scout to drive and wheel, while I finished the project. Other than the tires, body lift, and bumper that's how she came when I bought her. I may SOA the bitch, but no time, although I have the parts. The SJ's work really well, I have 8 inches of upward travel, and another 4 down, 12 inches total. BTW, the SJ springs do invert at full stuff; not good for a long spring life. Suspension travel is on par with an SOA. I’d stick with the SUA if not for three reasons, when loaded she'll drag her tail, and squat an inch or two in the back. I might be able to resolve the problem as SJ has add-a-leafs available for the 4” packs. Second, crappy ground clearance, even with recessed u-bolt plates.

Third, not enough lift, the SOA will give me the same ride, with at least 5 inches of lift. Why not go with custom SUA springs with more lift? The more arch you put in the spring the stiffer it will be. You can to some degree offset this with lots of thin springs. Plus, to get the same upward wheel travel the springs have to flatten much more, not good for an arched spring. Albeit, SOA tend to invert the spring pack, not good either, but I can replace factory spring packs all day, got three sets right now. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

The debate continues, I may go the route of AAL and recessed, and focus on the project, or SOA the rear only, or front and rear SOA. If I SOA, how can I resist bigger tires, but then I got to re-gear, and on and on, and the other Scout never gets on the road.

As to why this topic is reopened every couple of months, one word: Newbies <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">
Seriously, no single modification to your Scout can net you 5 inches of lift, so seemingly cheap. Everyone that buys a Scout hears about or sees an SOA Scout on the road, or on the trail, they ask how’d you setup that suspension. The answer they usually get is simple, SOA. But almost never, “to do an SOA correctly is not cheap, and unfortunately many people skip on the most difficult and expensive part, the front end.” We’ve all read posts here and on the BB about bad SOA’s.

I’ll get off my soap box now……

Joe <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0">

[Scout Dude]

Originally posted by jdjanda:
<STRONG>
As to why this topic is reopened every couple of months, one word: Newbies <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">
</STRONG>

Registered since July...what does that make you? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Anyway, I went with Spring over because somebody else had the sense to do it before I bought my Scout...Although, I did switch to wider springs, shackle reversal, and bigger axles...

[jdjanda]

Originally posted by Scout Dude:
<STRONG>Registered since July...what does that make you? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Ah, not much behind you, makes me a former Newbie... In a couple of months we'll see 10,000 users then who will be the newbies? There are quite a few of us that are reformed Binder Bulleting users and that's where the comment is directed. I assume you have been to the BB, where every other topic is questions about SOA, and every third is a Chevy motor swap questions.

Originally posted by Scout Dude:<STRONG>
Anyway, I went with Spring over because somebody else had the sense to do it before I bought my Scout...Although, I did switch to wider springs, shackle reversal, and bigger axles...</STRONG>

Details, please...... Did the PO in your opinion do the SOA correctly, I.E. turn the axles, etc. What problems did you run into when swapping the axles, tire clearance problems, etc. How do you like the RS, I've heard a lot of mixed reviews.

Joe <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0">

[Old Scout]

Boy this sure is a HOT topic! <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

[tsm1mt]

"Little Devil"




I've already posted pics of the work. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

I'm running 31x10.50s, 31x15.50s, 10-15LTs, and 32x11.50 Paddles depending..

In these pics, SOA with stock '72 non-HD leaf springs at all 4 corners. Travelall rear, Chevy pickup w/ F150 outers up front. 304/727 combo.

High-steer. 4.88s. Full width.

Cost? Total investment at the time? Under $1500 for the WHOLE D*MN THING.

Uncut axles. No cut n' turn. Stock driveshafts (rear from a 4spd SII, front from a 727/D30 combo). Radiused front fenders. Home-built shock towers, 14" shocks in the front, 9s angled in the back.

Ramped 950@25-deg at RMIHR.

Why'd I do it? Because no one thought it would work, but it was what I got my hands on cheaply. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Now it's all the rage to put uncut full-width axles under a Scout.. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">




$$$ actually part of the SOA? About $600. $150 to buy the front end, $80 in gears, $100 for the F150 hubs/rotors, and around $300 for the high-steer, then another $60 in new brake lines.

Rear was a simple re-weld of the stock perches and a $35 brake line.

[tsm1mt]

• Include pics of your work if you have them.

For more pics see Rear SOA Conversion

• The tire size you are running or plan to.

33x12.50s

• What problems you ran into during the swap, or want to avoid.

Originally did 4" Skyjackers SUA.. then added 2" shackles in the back to level it out.

33s rubbed badly. Clearanced some, helped, not fixed.

One day I was playing and proceeded to blow a front U-joint, broke the front Lockright, shot the hub off, and ripped one of the rear spring-perches off the housing.

Why repair it like it was? Decided it was time to go rear SOA.

The Skyjacker went in because it had to - I lacked the skills and time. When I did the rear SOA, I drove my racer to work while I fixed Tigger.

With the rear SOA I can haul more w/o dragging my rear end everywhere. Also recentered the axle for slightly better tire clearance with the 33s.

• Total money spent on the job.

Too much. $800+ on the Skyjacker setup, then another $150 or so for the rear SOA (driveshaft lengthened, built new perches)

The plan?

First, tub out the rear, radius the front fenders, and install my 36s.

Then while I'm playin' start building new running gear.

I'd like to end up with RS+XLC up front, SOA w/ Skyjacker 4" rears in the back. Full width. Another option is 4" Triangles in the rear with a tension shackle to bring the height down, keeping the flex, but NOT sending the springs "negative"..


I'm thinking either a 1.5" FF 60, or a 1.5" SF 60, but 8-lug.

I have a high-pinion '44 front that needs retubed to put the diff on the "right" side - and I just made some tubes in the racer - center section is toast tho'.

Goin' 8-lug because the day WILL come when I find a 60 front.

Even have the 15" 8-lug wheels already..

[tsm1mt]

• Include pics of your work if you have them.
• The tire size you are running or plan to.
• What problems you ran into during the swap, or want to avoid.
• Some good solid technical info.
• Total money spent on the job.
• A reason why we have to rehash this once every couple on months.

OK..



SOA, full width, 3.73 gears, front-to-back steering.

Why go SOA? It came that way. Plenty of ground clearance, soft (too soft) suspension.

Even 11x3 drums suck when you pack 'em full of snow though...

Cost? $200 for the whole thing, traded parts for the 33s, had the wheels. On-board air was another $100.

Made the 33s fit on our Christmas Tree run last year - heard a rub, got out with my 3lbs sledge in one hand, pry bar in the other, and fixed the problem.





Kept up with the locked & 36'd Bronco.. (the strap was for pulling the Big Bronco back when he'd get stuck in the drift - no one else on the trailride was big 'nuff to do the job but me. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> )

I'm also thinking of forgetting about reinstalling the rear tank, open up the rear wheel wells, radius the front, and I could put the 36s on this thing, too.

swap out the 727 for a married 727 from a SII and get a cheap dual-low solution..

[Scoutillac]

Include pics of your work if you have them.

The tire size you are running or plan to.

38's

What problems you ran into during the swap, or want to avoid.


Neighbors seemed to get upset with the air tools and impacts running at 6 am, you may want to wait till 7 am to start work <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">


Some good solid technical info.

A twin stick conversion on your D-20 will not allow you front wheel low if you use the TH-400 to D-20 adapter

Total money spent on the job.

I hurts to even think about, just remember it is for fun. Most of the funds spent on my rig went directly into <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0">

A reason why we have to rehash this once every couple on months.

[HooperSSII]

1. I will include a couple pictures as I go.

2. Currently running 33 x 12.50 MTR's. *Planning* on running 35's when I wear these out. 35's will stuff into the wheel wells without the sawzall. 36's won't.

3. Problems I ran into

A. Which housing to use.
a. Scout Housing
i. Grind and turn for caster
ii. Grind pumpkin for passenger perch
iii. Weld on perches – cleanly, accounting for caster, and any rotating of pinion to point at the t-case. I have seen a lot of really unclean, unsafe perch jobs, especially on the pumpkin side.
b. GM Housing
i. Grind out yokes
ii. Hammer off yokes.
iii. Measure and cut tubes for length
iv. Hammer yokes back on, with correct caster clocked in
v. GM perches are wider than scout springs. You will need to grind a groove for the ubolts to go into, or use a recessed ubolt plate, or straps, or something to keep the leaf pack together.





vi. GM perch centers do not line up with the centers of the scout springs. One or the other side will be offset to the inside of the perch. You have to drill a new center pin hole in the housing, and you have to carve a deep notch for the ubolts to run up on the outboard side.
vii. GM pumpkin does not have the same width dimension as the scout. The ring and pinion do not sit in the pumpkin in the same position as on a scout. If you use scout axles, you end up with your front pumpkin shifter out of line with the t-case, just a bit. About a quarter inch, or so.
viii. You will need to swap your differential from one to the other. That means you either need to be familiar with how to set one up, or you need to pay a shop to do it. It is pretty pricey to have a shop do it.
B. Driveline Angle Issues
a. The front driveline angle will be quite severe. You have two options. Leave it as is, or rotate the pinion to point at the t-case
b. Rotate Pinion
i. On the scout housing, you just build in enough caster when you clock your yokes and weld on your perches, that the pinion points at the t-case.
ii. On the GM housing, you need to either grind the perches down, or weld on shims to rotate the pumpkin. And make sure you put enough caster into the yokes so when you rotate the pinion up, you still have some caster left. So, you actually need to set the yokes to whatever caster you want, plus whatever degree shim you will need to point the pinion at the t-case.




iii. Driveline vibration
1. If you point the pinion at the t-case, you no longer have equal and opposite angles on your driveline ujoints. This results in vibration. Serious vibration, at speed. You can either live with it, and keep your 4wd speeds under about 20mph, or you can put a CV joint on the t-case end
2. If you put a CV joint on the t-case end, you will need to have your front driveline shortened
3. If you have an auto and put a CV in, you will need to grind the lip off the auto tranny pan to give you enough clearances.
c. Leave it as is – you will not have driveline angle issues, but it likely will bind and rub on extreme droop, and the driveline u-joints will wear out quickly.

C. Steering Issues
a. High Crossover – I will let someone else go into detail on this one. Briefly, you can put GM outers on, which will result in different lug pattern for the wheels, so you will have a spare tire issue. Or, you can use a chevy knuckle, but redrill the scout spindle to fit. Or , you can find a flat topped IH knuckle, and drill it to accept one of the bolt on high cross over setups on the market. This is expensive.
b. Z-Link – Not very strong. This really should not be used for tires larger than about 33 inches. Problem is, if you bend it on the trail, it is tough to jerry rig and make work. You can carry a spare, but they are pricey.
c. If you use a Z-link, you will need to drill out the bottom of the hole in the steering arm so you can run the z-link in from underneath. If you run it over, you will rub it on your springs. You need to either buy a taper reamer, or use the wiggle method, or drill it out and buy the tapered insert D and C has made for this application.

This is a shot of the z-link rubbing on my springs before I moved it under the steering arm. This is at rest. Under compression, it is much worse.



[IMG]http://www.ihssii.org/Hooper/Images-Technical/FrontZUnder.jpg[/URL]

But, with it under the arm, it is that much more susceptible to tagging rocks and other obstacles.

D. Shocks
a. Front - There is not room under a scout with stock shock mounting to make full use of the articulation. In the front, you need to go with a raised shock tower. There are several ways to do it, but it needs to be done. The lower shock mount needs to be moved off the spring plate which is now on top of the axles, and on top of the springs, to a point about on the centerline of the axle. I used a drop L bracket that bolts to the spring plate, but if you are a good welder, you can weld a bolt to the axle to use.






b. Rear – Same problem, not enough room for a long travel shock between the axle and the cross member. There are several alternatives. They all have advantages and disadvantages.
i. Raise the cross member
ii. Build a raised shock mounting cross member
iii. Angle the top of the shocks in
iv. Move bottom of shocks in.



[IMG] http://www.nwbinders.net/Tech/SOA/RearShocks.jpg[/IMG]

E. Brake Lines
a. Rear - You will need to buy the extended brake line for the rear. It is NAPA part number 36850.
b. Front, you can buy a brake line extension that easily splices in between the existing line and the hard line connection. It is NAPA part number 38510. You will need to rig some springs to keep the brake lines out of the tires.
c. Alternatively, in the front, you can run a hard line along the axle, with a junction box and use the same brake line as in the rear as a splitter. This gives the cleanest application.

Since I did all the grunt work, and had help from lots of friends, mine was not too expensive. I replaced all my front axle seals, and front wheel seals and bearings while I was in there, new Z link, some shock perches, brake lines, etc. Perhaps $500 when all was said and done, but that is a rough guess.

The articulation I gained is surprising. I went from 680 on the ramp, to maxing the 20 degree ramp (same ramp, same judge) and running up past 80 on the 30 degree ramp. That is a huge difference. I feel it on the trail, also. Much better at climbing over rocks and obstacles. Still concerned about the higher COG, which is why I want to go with the bigger, heavier 35 inch tires. But, the flex allows the tires and axle to swing lower, which helps keep the COG down. Plus, because it stuffs better, the body/frame is not lifted as high when going over obstacles, which also keeps the COG down. Additionally, I no longer have shocks, and springs hanging down under my axles, catching on every pebble in the road. Finally, I have much more clearance under my rockers, and frame. I can now clear obstacles that would have hung me up before.


[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Hooper ]

[Scout Dude]

Originally posted by jdjanda:
<STRONG>Details, please...... Did the PO in your opinion do the SOA correctly, I.E. turn the axles, etc. What problems did you run into when swapping the axles, tire clearance problems, etc. How do you like the RS, I've heard a lot of mixed reviews.

Joe <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Does anyone know why the entire quoted post does not show up? Anyway...

Hey Joe: Just kiddin' about the newbie thing...although I never cruised the BB forum...I gave up on them long before they were even a .org. I am more of a "screw it, I'll do it my way" rather than using stock replacement parts.
About my suspension mods:
1) I used a D44 from a 74waggoneer up front. I had not made up my mind as to which axle I was going to go with and I was actually leaning towards a Dynatrac 60 but I really needed a house instead. Rockslut convinced me to go with the waggy over a Scout II because the knuckles are flat tops, the are the 6 bolt pattern, small bearing spindles that Fords use, and internally splined hubs. I used Rubicon Express anti-wrap sprine perches cause they are a bit taller than most of the others. The driverside one is welded onto the tube, the pass side one was ground all the way down and welded onto the cast housing. By using these perches, I did not have to weld a block to one side to get the height level.

As for the SR; I was on the fence on this issue. I ended up go reversal because I had more fender to trim in the rear than the front. So when my suspension stuffs, it goes backwards where I was able to take out approx 2" out of the lower portion of the fender. Because I used Jeep truck shackles, I can actually go back to the std shackle in the front set up at anytime.

The rear was simple. I used a semi-float D60 from an heavy duty 67 F100. Welded on the RE perches and shock mounts and I was in business.

Here is another pic that might help get a better idea...I don't have any of my build up pics scanned yet. In this pic, you can kind of make out the far shackle and the front mount set up. Did I forget anything?

<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Lomida 3.JPG">

[jdjanda]

Originally posted by Scoutillac:
<STRONG>A twin stick conversion on your D-20 will not allow you front wheel low if you use the TH-400 to D-20 adapter
</STRONG>

I'm confused on why the adapter has anything to do with not using front 2wd low. If you remove the interlock pills then you can put the tcase into front 2wd low, or even rear high, front low. <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> I know the 727 in the Scouts cause problems with front CV clearance, but a grinder can take care of that. A lot of people only change out the sticks and leave the pills in place, thus not allowing front 2wd low.

Joe <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0">

[Ben W]

Originally posted by Scoutillac:
<STRONG>Some good solid technical info.

A twin stick conversion on your D-20 will not allow you front wheel low if you use the TH-400 to D-20 adapter

</STRONG>

Why do you say this? My twinstick D20 behind the TH400 has no problem with front wheel low.

[Scoutillac]

Originally posted by jdjanda:
<STRONG>I'm confused on why the adapter has anything to do with not using front 2wd low. If you remove the interlock pills then you can put the tcase into front 2wd low, or even rear high, front low. <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> I know the 727 in the Scouts cause problems with front CV clearance, but a grinder can take care of that. A lot of people only change out the sticks and leave the pills in place, thus not allowing front 2wd low.

Joe <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Well, to opperate in 2lo on the front axle the case is driven off the bull gear, The adapter has a smaller gear that will not allow this. Kinda tough to explain. I spent the better part of the afternoon with my twinstick 20, a bullgear, and the TH-400 adapter on the work bench just looking at it to see what I could see, and that is what I figgered out. Hell, maybe I have the wrong adapter or just have my head up my ass <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> All I know is that if I use the TH-400 adapter it will leave me with out the option of 2lo on the front diff

[Ben W]

Originally posted by Scoutillac:
<STRONG>Well, to opperate in 2lo on the front axle the case is driven off the bull gear, The adapter has a smaller gear that will not allow this. Kinda tough to explain. I spent the better part of the afternoon with my twinstick 20, a bullgear, and the TH-400 adapter on the work bench just looking at it to see what I could see, and that is what I figgered out. Hell, maybe I have the wrong adapter or just have my head up my ass <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> All I know is that if I use the TH-400 adapter it will leave me with out the option of 2lo on the front diff</STRONG>

So by what you are saying, 4 lo wouldn't engage the front axle either... The front is engaged the same no matter what gear the rear is in and the rear is engaged the same no matter what gear the front is in. That's why you can get in front hi/rear lo or front lo/rear hi. Anyway I'm confused now, thanks. All I know is it works just fine. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> Why did you bring this up on the SOA thread anyway? <IMG SRC="smilies/clown.gif" border="0">

[Scoutillac]

What does the gear on your adapter look like ben? The stock bullgear for a 727 has the helical cut outter ring and a smaller ring that is straight cut correct? My adapter has a gear that is only the diamater of the straight cut gear on the stock bull gear. You still with me?

[nwmud]

GREAT INFO <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> Spoken like the newbie I am.
Lots of good information to help me make an informed decision as to best attack the problems involvrd with the SOA conversion I am planning for my beast. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> Still working on details, but the current thought is to use two transfer cases to provide the best possible crawl ratio. The SOA should allow for the 35's sitting in the back yard and a sawzall should give the clearance I need. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">
Currently I have a little over $300 into the project, but hey I'm still taking them apart. I am sure the price will skyrocket when I start to put them together <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">
I really appreciate all the help I have gotten from everyone so far, especially my friend Jason, he knows a lot more then me and he can weld! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> PS - great pictures!
Ritch

[Ben W]

Originally posted by Scoutillac:
<STRONG>What does the gear on your adapter look like ben? The stock bullgear for a 727 has the helical cut outter ring and a smaller ring that is straight cut correct? My adapter has a gear that is only the diamater of the straight cut gear on the stock bull gear. You still with me?</STRONG>

Ok then, you are missing 1/2 the bull gear. The helical cut gear is missing. It is splined on the inside to fit over that part of the adapter shaft, and is retained with a snap ring. That's why Tera-low refers to the 3.15 kit for the TH400/D20 as a "15-spline".

Here's the part you have, Novak calls it the Power delivery sleeve. I can't find a picture of the part you are missing. Maybe call Novak, they might have a used one. http://www.novak-adapt.com



[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: BenW ]

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: BenW ]

[Scoutillac]

Originally posted by BenW:
<STRONG>Ok then, you are missing 1/2 the bull gear. The helical cut gear is missing. It is splined on the inside to fit over that part of the adapter shaft, and is retained with a snap ring. That's why Tera-low refers to the 3.15 kit for the TH400/D20 as a "15-spline".

Here's the part you have, Novak calls it the Power delivery sleeve. I can't find a picture of the part you are missing. Maybe call Novak, they might have a used one. http://www.novak-adapt.com



[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: BenW ]

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: BenW ]</STRONG>

Damn, Thanks Ben. Exactly, without the outter ring no 2wdlo in the front
<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[tsm1mt]

Originally posted by nwmud:
<STRONG>The SOA should allow for the 35's sitting in the back yard and a sawzall should give the clearance I need. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">
</STRONG>

What kind of dual 'case ideas do you have?

And.. you can fit 38s with a sawzall and NO LIFT.

The rockers sit taller than mine do with 31s and SOA.

Of course, turning radius with stock width axles and 38s SUCKS..