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Old 10-03-2001, 04:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Exclamation Building a 80?

Been thinging of having John Fleck build a Scout 80 for me.

it can been seen @ http://www.backcountrybinders.com/im...62Scout80.JPG, if anyone's interested

anyhow, I wanted to bounce buildup idea off you guys.

Stage 1:

Strip scout. remove dash, seats, wiring, everything. remove body

Repair rust as needed on inner tub. repair frame as needed and do reverse shackle.

repair rust on inner tub as needed.

Stage 2:

prep axles. gonna use set from t-all he has. narrow and use SII front shafts, then cut rear shafts. install lockrights in both. Install rear brakes if drum system isn't repairable

rebuild spring packs. take part and grind smooth, then re-install. if broken, I'll consider custom or aftermarket.

Install axles under frame.

install ford PS box and hook up DOM steering linkage

Stage 3:

Install sd33t/t19 wide/d20 twinstick sitting in my storage locker.

custom cross member and engine mounts will of course be needed

stage 4:

install tub.

measure with tub off amount of fire wall needed to be modified and modify.

install with 1" body lift and new bushings.

hookup windsheild, steering, and heater. install electric wiper motors.

add front sheet metal.

herculine front cab area

at this point, it should be driveabe, but not legally which brings us to

Stage 5:

install wiring.

I'm looking at a semi-custom system, start with the bare bones kit from Wire Works and add wiring for glow plugs, dual optimas, and external LEDs (maybe, depending on budget)

Stage 6:

Build and install pickup cab roll cage/seat/restraint mount. attach dash to front similar to dash This is a "first draft", but the idea remains similar.

add seats and restraints, then pickup cab

Add guages

stage 7:

install 35" tires and new driveshafts. ramp test and trim fenders to get max articulation

add angle iron to fenders (for installing rubber stripping for flares)

Stage 8:

herculine rear bed. build 3 storage boxes. 2 over fenders and one taking front half of bed.

install fuel cell in rear half and build shelf over it.

well, thats pretty much it, so basically good idea? <IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"> idea? bad idea?

anything I should change? and before it's mentioned, No, I won't stick a gas engine in it
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Old 10-03-2001, 06:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I have an 80 and you have pretty much hit the nail right on the head. I like the diesel idea! I have already cut out my dash and I am getting ready to install the front hoop that will have the dash mounted into it. The one idea that I would not do is to take up the rear space with a fuel cell when you have the side fuel pockets that can be used...Just my opinion though...good luck.

One more thing...I wouldn't spend money on having axles narrowed when there are plenty out there that are already set up to right width. That way, replacement shafts are easier to get. And if you put Ford outers on the front axle, you get the internally splined hubs.

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Scout Dude ]
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Old 10-03-2001, 09:22 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotQuiteSane:
<STRONG>Been thinking of having John Fleck build a Scout 80 for me.

it can been seen @ http://www.backcountrybinders.com/im...62Scout80.JPG, if anyone's interested</STRONG>
You are talking about a lot of custom work here, which means a lot of time following up on the project status from afar. Do you have the time to both wait for the work, and time to follow up. Make sure you clearly outline your and John's expectations, and delivery dates. Agree ahead of time on milestones, and payment dates for the milestones. I.E. 50% up-front, 25% at mid-point milestone, and 25% upon completion. I always include a bonus for early delivery and a penalty for late delivery. This will help both you and John avoid the problems of others when dealing with custom work.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotQuiteSane:
<STRONG>anyhow, I wanted to bounce buildup idea off you guys.

Stage 1:

Strip scout. remove dash, seats, wiring, everything. remove body

Repair rust as needed on inner tub. repair frame as needed and do reverse shackle.

repair rust on inner tub as needed.</STRONG>
Good idea, as IH's always have rust problems, BTDT, I'm on 2 years for rust repairs on project tub, whish now I had bobbed it.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotQuiteSane:
<STRONG>Stage 2:

prep axles. gonna use set from t-all he has. narrow and use SII front shafts, then cut rear shafts. install lockrights in both. Install rear brakes if drum system isn't repairable

rebuild spring packs. take part and grind smooth, then re-install. if broken, I'll consider custom or aftermarket.

Install axles under frame.

install ford PS box and hook up DOM steering linkage
</STRONG>
Agree with Scout Dude, if you want narrow user Scout II axles, easier to find replacements. For the rear use a Detroit Locker, you have to replace the carrier if you regear, add that to the cost of the lockrite and you are only a hundred dollars short of a Detroit.


Quote:
Originally posted by NotQuiteSane:
<STRONG>Stage 3:

Install sd33t/t19 wide/d20 twinstick sitting in my storage locker.

custom cross member and engine mounts will of course be needed
</STRONG>
What year is the D20 box, the D20's that come with factory twin sticks use a different cut on the gears that will not be compatible with the stock bull gear from a T19, two options, swap the gears from a late model D20, or swap bull gears. If you look at the gears you cannot tell. Call Boarder Parts and talk to them, they can tell you witch gear sets match.


Quote:
Originally posted by NotQuiteSane:
<STRONG>Stage 5:

install wiring.

I'm looking at a semi-custom system, start with the bare bones kit from Wire Works and add wiring for glow plugs, dual optimas, and external LEDs (maybe, depending on budget)
</STRONG>
Have you looked at the Pain Less kits, IMHO opinion more of a factory look. Painless

Quote:
Originally posted by NotQuiteSane:
<STRONG>well, that's pretty much it, so basically good idea? <IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"> idea? bad idea?

anything I should change? and before it's mentioned, No, I won't stick a gas engine in it</STRONG>
Sounds like it should be a nice rig when done, good luck and keep up posted.

Joe <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0">
Painless

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: jdjanda ]
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Old 10-03-2001, 09:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scout Dude:
<STRONG>The one idea that I would not do is to take up the rear space with a fuel cell when you have the side fuel pockets that can be used...Just my opinion though...good luck.
</STRONG>
Good point. If you need more tire room, just move 'em back in the stock wheel wells - looks like there's plenty of room there to stretch the wheelbase a bit and help the departure angle at the same time..
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Old 10-03-2001, 10:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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[quote]Originally posted by jdjanda:

Quote:
Agree ahead of time on milestones, and payment dates for the milestones. I.E. 50% up-front, 25% at mid-point milestone, and 25% upon completion. I always include a bonus for early delivery and a penalty for late delivery
Yep. been thinking parts at beging of each stage, labor at completion.

Quote:
Agree with Scout Dude, if you want narrow user Scout II axles, easier to find replacements. For the rear use a Detroit Locker, you have to replace the carrier if you regear, add that to the cost of the lockrite and you are only a hundred dollars short of a Detroit.
Well, I'm not sure a dana 44 can handle 35's, and I might go a few inches higher when it's time to get the next set. Am not planning to re-gear at this time, both match, so no need. I'm saving my pennies for ARB's and 4.56's

Quote:
What year is the D20 box,
1978. Was converted to twinstick for me by a local shop, and I'm positive it'll fit on the back of the t19. it came off of there.

Quote:
Have you looked at the Pain Less kits, IMHO opinion more of a factory look
Yep. and didn't like what I saw. the WW kit is better made, easier to install, and easier to customize.

Joe

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: NotQuiteSane ]
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Old 10-03-2001, 10:08 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tsm1mt:
<STRONG>Good point. If you need more tire room, just move 'em back in the stock wheel wells - looks like there's plenty of room there to stretch the wheelbase a bit and help the departure angle at the same time..</STRONG>
Hmm, didn't think of that. And with the diesel in it it's not like i need a lot a fuel.
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Old 10-03-2001, 10:16 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotQuiteSane:
<STRONG>Hmm, didn't think of that. And with the diesel in it it's not like i need a lot a fuel.</STRONG>
You'd have dual 10gal tanks if you kept the stock setup.. 20gal is a fair bit. And more than fair with the diesel. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">
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Old 10-03-2001, 10:34 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tsm1mt:
<STRONG>You'd have dual 10gal tanks if you kept the stock setup.. 20gal is a fair bit. And more than fair with the diesel. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Hmm, I guess it would be considerater to have similar sruising range, mabe just have one tank.

back when I wanted 38's under this thing, I asked eldon what kind of mileage I could expect. he said 18mpg. can't get that easily in a petrol engine:-)

plus of course, better torque and lasts longer

Joe
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Old 10-03-2001, 10:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
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All I'll recomend is to go full width on the axles and not use Ford Power steering anything. My '70 street Scout has Scout 2 width 44s under it. It's the same setup I was planning on for my rock fridge too. After seeing it I'm definately going full width. It looks great for pimping around town but it's too narrow to really wheel hard IMHO. If you do decide to run those Travelall axles make sure they have 297 u joints and not the 260s. I've seen several later ones that had the 260s. I think '75 was the changeover point but I could be wrong. You probably want to convert to stronger internal hubs too.

As for the Power steering I would avoid Ford parts at all cost. I'm not trying to beat up on Ford but they have always had shitty power steering stuff. Go Saginaw or carry a spare box with you. A broken sector shaft will really ruin your day/life. I'm going to convert my Street Scout over to a Scout 2 Power steering box this weekend so I'll post some pics of that. My friend converted his rock Scout over to a 2wd Chevy box last weekend and he now has one finger steering even on the rocks with 36s. You'll have to run full widths to clear the chevy box though. Best of luck on your project.
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Old 10-03-2001, 11:03 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Overkiller:
<STRONG>

As for the Power steering I would avoid Ford parts at all cost. I'm not trying to beat up on Ford but they have always had shitty power steering stuff. Go Saginaw or carry a spare box with you. A broken sector shaft will really ruin your day/life. </STRONG>
I have a Ford 2wd ps box (I think...it was already set up when I got it.) The sector shaft is REALLY LONG. Actually, I would have to agree with Overkiller on this one after-all. If you are going to fab up a new system, go with a Saginaw set-up.
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Old 10-04-2001, 03:44 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Overkiller:
<STRONG>All I'll recomend is to go full width on the axles and not use Ford Power steering anything. My '70 street Scout has Scout 2 width 44s under it. It's the same setup I was planning on for my rock fridge too. After seeing it I'm definately going full width. It looks great for pimping around town but it's too narrow to really wheel hard IMHO. If you do decide to run those Travelall axles make sure they have 297 u joints and not the 260s. I've seen several later ones that had the 260s. I think '75 was the changeover point but I could be wrong. You probably want to convert to stronger internal hubs too.

As for the Power steering I would avoid Ford parts at all cost. I'm not trying to beat up on Ford but they have always had shitty power steering stuff. Go Saginaw or carry a spare box with you. A broken sector shaft will really ruin your day/life. I'm going to convert my Street Scout over to a Scout 2 Power steering box this weekend so I'll post some pics of that. My friend converted his rock Scout over to a 2wd Chevy box last weekend and he now has one finger steering even on the rocks with 36s. You'll have to run full widths to clear the chevy box though. Best of luck on your project.
Travis</STRONG>
Well, On the power steering, this is a 4cyl frame, not sure a saginaw will fit.

as to axles, If the right ones (dana 60 and 14 bolt, say) were offered at the right price (say, free) I might go with them. I don't to have a dana 44 rear. and as to full width, I know sII axles are ~6" wider, and if I grab chevy axles those are a nother 6" more. pretty much any set I get i'm gonna have to narrow.

Joe
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Old 10-04-2001, 04:37 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Not to get too stupid or make enemies but...

You posted your plans and asked

Quote:
well, thats pretty much it, so basically good idea? <IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"> idea? bad idea?

anything I should change? and before it's mentioned, No, I won't stick a gas engine in it
And every suggestion except the gas tank thing you shot down. Why ask for opinions if your mind is made up? Most of the suggestions on the axle stuff seemed pretty cool to me (but thats my opinion) This buildup might fit better on BB not here. This is mostly purist trail rig type place. The unanimous opinion here (as far as I have seen) is fullwidths are chosen over narrow axles anyway. Everyone who has seen an 80 w/ stock axles and tires would agree the wheels are WAY in there the added width would only help stability. Again not trying to make enemies but this is my observation. I like the diesel idea and the scout looks pretty cool. A lot of the mods seem pretty cosmetic but thats me <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Hope your plans work out and you are happy with whatever happens. Best of luck.
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Old 10-04-2001, 08:29 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by YDB:
<STRONG>Not to get too stupid or make enemies but...

You posted your plans and asked

And every suggestion except the gas tank thing you shot down. Why ask for opinions if your mind is made up? Most of the suggestions on the axle stuff seemed pretty cool to me (but thats my opinion) This buildup might fit better on BB not here. This is mostly purist trail rig type place. The unanimous opinion here (as far as I have seen) is fullwidths are chosen over narrow axles anyway. Everyone who has seen an 80 w/ stock axles and tires would agree the wheels are WAY in there the added width would only help stability. Again not trying to make enemies but this is my observation. I like the diesel idea and the scout looks pretty cool. A lot of the mods seem pretty cosmetic but thats me <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Hope your plans work out and you are happy with whatever happens. Best of luck.</STRONG>
Well, I've pretty much got an idea of what I want, this is more of "fine tuning"

as to the axles, I didn't turn down wider axles, I turned down fullsized axles. If I was building a Scout II, I'd stick unmodified chevy or IH truck front axle on it. Tom did this and it looks good. sticks out about 3" on either side (6" wider).

Now as I've been told, when one sticks SII axles under a 80/800, they also stick out 3". so an unmodified chevy/ih front would be 6" wider on either side. since I want to keep this street legal, I elext to cut a IH or chevy (and was offered an IH axles) to scout II width and use SII shafts.

on the rear, I want a 60 or 14blt over the 44 because of the strength. I'm thinking of going taller tires later after this set wears out. I don't want to have to keep swapping out my axle every time I do a tire change

oh, and on the power steering, If any one does know how to put a saginjaw box on a 4cyl frame and make it work, let me know. I'm interested.

Joe
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Old 10-04-2001, 08:56 AM   #14 (permalink)
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ScoutII axles are not 3" wider on each side. they are only 1" wider on each side than stock 80/800 stuff. I am swapping out my 30/44 combo under my '66 in favor of some scout II stuff. I have to stay some what narrow as this is my daily driver. If you look at the rocky mountian binders website and look at mike meyers blue 800, he has scout II axles under his csout and they do not stick out 3", only about an 1" just my $.02 on this topic. The scout is looking good
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Old 10-04-2001, 10:13 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotQuiteSane:
<STRONG>
oh, and on the power steering, If any one does know how to put a saginjaw box on a 4cyl frame and make it work, let me know. I'm interested.

Joe</STRONG>
Re-fab the cross member so it will fit. I have seen FJ40's with a section of tube through the cross member and the steering shaft run through it. You could try that. I would certainly try that before I set up one to run outside the frame rails.
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Old 10-04-2001, 11:44 AM   #16 (permalink)
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What are you doing with the 152 in it? I am looking for a running 152 for my 63 to replace the AFU Buick 300 thats in it...

lemme know lt303scoutin@yahoo.com
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Old 10-04-2001, 01:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Why are you starting with an 80???? Sounds like LOTS of extra fab work for John, and lots of extra $$$ from you.

Are you sold on an 80??, or could you live with an 800, specificaly a V-8 800 that the SD33 would bolt right into.

The reason a say this, is becasue I have a V-8 800 chassis and body that would be perferect for this project of yours, and save a lot of work.

You would get the crossmember in the right place (forward), and the steering box on the out side (would still need to modify for the PS, but a better starting point). The body is in VERY good shape, little to no rust, but the PO sawzalled the fenders already, so for a restoration canidite, no good, however, you are already planning the saws-all.....

Its a great rig and IMO, would be a much better starting point (seriosly), not to mention would get it out of my place so I can start building my new shop <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Best yet, I'm close to John, and we can work out arangments between our-selfs for pick-up etc.

please keep it in mind, as I would like to sell it, I need the room to start leveling out the yard...

Other than that, I think your idea's pretty good. I like the Diesel, got a travler Diesel and I like it. But I'm used to the 392 in my Scout <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">. A fuel-cell of some sort would be MUCH better than the factory tanks, 20 gal would be good, but as big as you can get it. If you already got a source for axles, go for it. If you build the chassis to take S.O. SII axles, you can ALWAYS swap in GM full-sizes later, if you still feel its too narrow. Build as you go and as you need to, not just becaue someone says to.

Go for it <IMG SRC="smilies/jeep2.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/jeep2.gif" border="0">
-mark

e-mail me if you want more info on the 800, I'm serious about thinking it is a better starting point, not just trying to unload my junk on you...

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: RustoleumWhite ]
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Old 10-04-2001, 01:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotQuiteSane:
<STRONG>Well, I've pretty much got an idea of what I want, this is more of "fine tuning"

as to the axles, I didn't turn down wider axles, I turned down fullsized axles. If I was building a Scout II, I'd stick unmodified chevy or IH truck front axle on it. Tom did this and it looks good. sticks out about 3" on either side (6" wider).

Now as I've been told, when one sticks SII axles under a 80/800, they also stick out 3". so an unmodified chevy/ih front would be 6" wider on either side. since I want to keep this street legal, I elext to cut a IH or chevy (and was offered an IH axles) to scout II width and use SII shafts.

on the rear, I want a 60 or 14blt over the 44 because of the strength. I'm thinking of going taller tires later after this set wears out. I don't want to have to keep swapping out my axle every time I do a tire change

oh, and on the power steering, If any one does know how to put a saginjaw box on a 4cyl frame and make it work, let me know. I'm interested.

Joe</STRONG>
Here is a Scout 80 w/ Scout II axles. They are about 1" wider on each side than stock 80 axles.

I use a 4-bolt saginaw PS box on my 4cyl frame. Cut the crossmember out and move it. Then there is no issue with the PS box placement. If you're planning on the Sd33T you're going to have to move it anyway because an I6 is a long damn engine.
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Old 10-04-2001, 05:12 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by RustoleumWhite:
[QB]
The reason a say this, is becasue I have a V-8 800 chassis and body that would be perferect for this project of yours, and save a lot of work.[QB]
Damm it, why are all the deals on Scout 80/800s a damm 1,000 miles away from CA?

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Old 10-04-2001, 05:13 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I have heard that a Cherokee box works well for the 80's. Don't know if it is true.

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Old 10-04-2001, 05:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Fullsize Cherokee/Wagoneer/J-trucks use the 4-bolt saginaw box. Thats what I have on my scout. Wranglers also use a verion of the same box, as do many older fullsize GM cars. Its extremely common. Probably the most common box for PS swaps on Cruisers and Jeeps.
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Old 10-04-2001, 06:00 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by lt303scoutin:
<STRONG>What are you doing with the 152 in it? I am looking for a running 152 for my 63 to replace the AFU Buick 300 thats in it...

lemme know lt303scoutin@yahoo.com</STRONG>
Hey if you going to get rid of it I could use the heads off of a Buick 300
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Old 10-04-2001, 06:10 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I'll let you know... I am looking at a 152 tomarrow...If I do end up pulling it..I'll let you know first
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Old 10-04-2001, 07:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by lt303scoutin:
<STRONG>What are you doing with the 152 in it? I am looking for a running 152 for my 63 to replace the AFU Buick 300 thats in it...

lemme know lt303scoutin@yahoo.com</STRONG>
I asked John for price w/o drivetrain, but there was a $200 diffrence. Bet he's let the engine go for a pic of Mr Franklin.

dunno if it runs, it's in the back of the vehicle, IIRC

Joe
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Old 10-04-2001, 07:41 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by RustoleumWhite:
<STRONG>Why are you starting with an 80???? Sounds like LOTS of extra fab work for John, and lots of extra $$$ from you.

</STRONG>
It's there. no other real reason

Quote:
Are you sold on an 80??, or could you live with an 800, specificaly a V-8 800 that the SD33 would bolt right into.

The reason a say this, is becasue I have a V-8 800 chassis and body that would be perferect for this project of yours, and save a lot of work.
Actually I had bought a '70 800 with i-6 for that reason. course the lady I got it from screwed me. Only lost my $50 deposit and get that back as soon as mail fraud stuff is done. I do want the removeable doors and fold down windsheild, but aren't the 80 & 800 tubs basically the same? I'm sure they can be grafted on.

There is one other consideratoin though. the 62 doesn't have to pass emissions. hmm. wonder if John will sell a vin plate. or can just put the 80 body on v8 frame. Been thinking that might be the best solution

Quote:
You would get the crossmember in the right place (forward), and the steering box on the out side (would still need to modify for the PS, but a better starting point). The body is in VERY good shape, little to no rust, but the PO sawzalled the fenders already, so for a restoration canidite, no good, however, you are already planning the saws-all.....
what year? I think anything post 65 has to have emission in UT, but The earlier the better. if worse comes to worse, a $200 fine per year will let it slide by

Quote:
Its a great rig and IMO, would be a much better starting point (seriosly), not to mention would get it out of my place so I can start building my new shop <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
Got a digi-cam?

Quote:

Other than that, I think your idea's pretty good. I like the Diesel, got a travler Diesel and I like it. But I'm used to the 392 in my Scout <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">. A fuel-cell of some sort would be MUCH better than the factory tanks, 20 gal would be good, but as big as you can get it. If you already got a source for axles, go for it. If you build the chassis to take S.O. SII axles, you can ALWAYS swap in GM full-sizes later, if you still feel its too narrow. Build as you go and as you need to, not just becaue someone says to.
I'm just a diesel fan, some like petrol. as to the axles, I have been thinking today of full width. I know john has a FF 60, and GM fron 44's are not impossible to finds. Ut says it can be as wide as I wish, as long as they're covered. I got some ruber stripping free about 4" wide I was gonna have metal flares built, then rivit the rubber on. takes care of the "flexable" requirement

[QUOTE]

e-mail me if you want more info on the 800, I'm serious about thinking it is a better starting point, not just trying to unload my junk on you.../QUOTE]

I'll send a mail a bit later. guys a=on the local list were messing around and I've got about 200 messages each with a single word.
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