12 bolt front axle

[saprobe]

friend of mine has a trooper trail rig,and lots of spare parts. i am toying with the idea of making him a front axle from one of his rears,shoudl be pretty easy to attach d44 or chevy 10 bolt knuckles,etc. to the housing.

the reason for building a hybrid axle would mainly be the "cool factor" of keeping it mostly isuzu,and not dana,GM,toyota,whatever. also,since we most of the parts in stock cost would prolly be less than building a comparable 4.56 d44 axle.

from what i can gather from the searches,looks like the 12 bolt rear has a 27 spline side gear,so likely a custom inner axle would be needed. maybe cut down and respline dime-a-dozen chevy 10 bolt shafts.

anyone done it?

[Independent4x]

FAWKER

yeah i was/am planning to build that...............

my plan was w/ 60 outters. using a blank 60 inner and having Moser spline it to match the spiders......OR the other idea was to broach the spiders for like 30 or 35 spline inners.

honestly i would skip the 10 bolt crap......go w/ at minimum big bearing D44 stuff.....say like 77+ waggy outters.


dude i'm psyched to see it..............................bring on the build up pics!

[paulevans76]

awesome. i have always thought about it, but i aint got the know how or tools YET

hybrid 12bolt/60 would be cool as shit

[saprobe]

Originally posted by TrooperRS
honestly i would skip the 10 bolt crap......go w/ at minimum big bearing D44 stuff.....say like 77+ waggy outters.

the "10 bolt crap" is the same as 77+waggy stuff. dont make me give my sermon on my the GM 10 bolt is a better axle than a 44

i agree,60 outers with 332x u joints would be the way to go,but that stuff dont grow on trees and most of us arent gonna part out an axle for its hubs and knuckles if we have to pay $800+ for it. were just gonna put that sucker in there.

now if i can find a broken dana 50 solid axle for next to nothin to rob parts from,it will be on

ill be sure to put up pics once i get started on it

thanx for the info

[Independent4x]

i'll stand by the 10 bolt crap comment

not looking for a pissing match, but if we are "JUST" speaking of the outters..............then yeah it would be a fine doner axle....most likely cheaper as well.

but, you can now buy reproduction 60 parts all day long..............Tera, Crane, Dynatrac, Parts Mike, Dedanbear, yada, yada...........all be it SPENDY. Just a matter of what you want when you are done.

besides...........i already have a 35 spline front 60 in my rig and i can get 60 parts no problem.........i gots connections


but yeah................i hear you on the 44 parts, especially if you want 6 on 5.5 pattern.

[paulevans76]

one thing to take into account

how beefy can you go with the outers before the 3rd member becomes the weak link?

i htink a 12 bolt portal would be cool because the gear reduction in the hubs would reduce the stress on the 3rd. plus no one else is really doin custom portals with stuff other than 9's. be cool to see everyone droolin over some zu gear.

[saprobe]

Originally posted by TrooperRS
i'll stand by the 10 bolt crap comment

not looking for a pissing match,either,but i will enlighten you

as weve allready established,all 10 bolts use the big bearig spindles. the hubs,rotors,lockouts,stub shafts,u joints,ball joints,etc. is exactly the same.

moving on to the housing,it is not any different either.all the 10 bolts ive come across(wich are many) have the same diameter/thickness tube as any chevy or waggy 44.all of them are thcker than the scout 44s.

the sahfts are comparable. alot of the "10 bolts are crap" guys will complain about the 28 vs 30 spines at the inner axle. this is not a relavent point,since the over all diameter of the shaft is the same,as is the neckdown point,wich is where the shaft is prolly gonna snap anyway. the 10 bolt and 44 even use the same inner axle seal.

heres where it gets alitte more interesting. the dana 44 uses the same diameter pinion as the dana 30 and 35 at 1.3 inches. they all take the same pinion seal. the 10 bolt however, has a dana 60 sized pinion at 1.6. the shaft is bigger,as is the yoke,the splined part, the threaded portion,and nut. it also uses a bigger inner bearing.

here is a pic,for your viewing pleasure,the 10 bolt pinion is on the left:


ignore the pinion head,as im not sure what ratios the 2 pinions are from.

here is what happens to a rear 44 pinion when too much throttle is applied at the wrong time,tring to spin 38" TSLs:



the carrier is compareable.not much difference in the carrier housing,spider or side gears. one of the coolest tings about the 10 bolt is that the carrier break is real high: 2.73 on the high,and everything else on the low. because of this, 10 bolt ring gears are considerably thicker(read stronger ) than compareable ratio 44 gears. if you happen across a cheap full case locker for the high gear and want to use it with your 4.10s,no sweat,you can get a ring gear spacer for around $20. can ya get one of them fora 44? dont think so

last and not least is that since the 28 spline 8.5" 10 bolt was used in the rear of alot of popluar 70s era "muscle cars"(camaros,novas,etc.) as well as the front of every chevy/gmc truck made during a 10+ year production span,used stuff is everywhere. lockers and gearsets go for next to nothin on ebay all the time.

i finally got tired of lookig for a cheap used 4.10 gearset and carrier for my 44,and put a 10 bolt up front of my junk after a friend gave me a 4.56 gearset.

id go a step further and say that the 10 bolt is actually alittle bit stronger of an axle than a 44.

now,if youd like to try and convince me other wise,i cant wait to hear your reasoning that makes the 44 a better front axle.

the guy that gave me the R&P says i should keep my mount shut-just let all you guys think they are crap,so that we can keep buying this stuff cheap and free

hes prolly right...

[saprobe]

Originally posted by paulevans76
one thing to take into account

how beefy can you go with the outers before the 3rd member becomes the weak link?

i htink a 12 bolt portal would be cool because the gear reduction in the hubs would reduce the stress on the 3rd. plus no one else is really doin custom portals with stuff other than 9's. be cool to see everyone droolin over some zu gear.

yes,thats one reason to use the 44/1- bolt stuff-to keep the third member as strong as the rest of it. if i could find a d50 to rob 60 size knuckles,etc. fromt ud definaetly try it,let him beat on it and tell yall exactly how much the 3rd member can take

sure you can buy all that stuff,but it quickly beccomes cost prohibitive-very quickly the cost excelates to the point where we might as well have just bought a d60. it doesnt make sense to build a $1000 front end that is not as strong as a stock dana 60,due to the smaller diffy.

ive got 10 bolts and 44s all over the place here,and since he prolly has 2 rear axles with the same ratio,i could put it together for the price of resplining the shafts,depending on what i do about inner axle seals

a portal would be super cool. at this point in time,tho,thats still alittle above my fab skills,unless i ran across a set to rob parts from. but again,if that happened,id prolly just use em

[Indyguy]

Originally posted by paulevans76
how beefy can you go with the outers before the 3rd member becomes the weak link?

If using 44 or 10 bolt parts, I wouldn't worry about the third being the weak link. I'd stack the Zu 12 bolt against a 44 any day in the strength department. The portal idea would be cool...... but its probably going to require some creativity to run a portal front without having the truck sit really high. Keep the lift down too much and things like the oil pan would probably start getting in the way. Just my "absolutely no real-life experience" opinion though.
________
Expert insurance

[mlclark]

Saprobe-

Totally off topic here, but what is the WSU on the piece of cloth in the background of your pic?

Michael

[saprobe]

WSU= wright state university

i went there 1 quarter,my sister graduated from there. it was the 1st thing i saw to cover up the axle i was working on on my workbench,so the pinions werent lost in the back ground

[mlclark]

Originally posted by saprobe
WSU= wright state university

i went there 1 quarter,my sister graduated from there. it was the 1st thing i saw to cover up the axle i was working on on my workbench,so the pinions werent lost in the back ground

Hmmm...I was thinking Washington State University. Oh well.

Michael

[zutrooper]

how about weber state univ

[Independent4x]

OK...........you know way more about them than i do....or really care to

couple thing you didn't mention:


there are multiple versions correct?

many of the 10 bolts are small bearing and use c-clips ...no?

as well the inner shafts are not heat treated and therefore are not a candidate for re-splining

this is why you do not see "narrowed" 10 bolts? correct?



anyway.........whatever you use the front 12 bolt isuzu waould be a cool axle.


i would personally be looking to make it 8 lug (with say maybe 3/4 ton 44 outers) and use a larger rear, like a 14 bolt.


here is a comparison pic of a 12 bolt ring/pinion vs a d44 ring and pinion (d44 is the smaller stuff)

[Independent4x]

ring:

[Independent4x]

profile:

[kyrel69]

Originally posted by TrooperRS
OK...........you know way more about them than i do....or really care to

couple thing you didn't mention:


there are multiple versions correct?

many of the 10 bolts are small bearing and use c-clips ...no?

as well the inner shafts are not heat treated and therefore are not a candidate for re-splining

this is why you do not see "narrowed" 10 bolts? correct?



anyway.........whatever you use the front 12 bolt isuzu waould be a cool axle.


i would personally be looking to make it 8 lug (with say maybe 3/4 ton 44 outers) and use a larger rear, like a 14 bolt.


here is a comparison pic of a 12 bolt ring/pinion vs a d44 ring and pinion (d44 is the smaller stuff)

he is talking about useing front 10 bolt parts, not the rears.

so there are no c-clips and no there are not different size 10 bolt front axles. The only thing that changed with teh 10 bolt front axle is that in the late 80's they went to 30 spline inners, and were like that untill GM stoped useing

[Independent4x]

Originally posted by kyrel69



he is talking about useing front 10 bolt parts, not the rears.

oh really? you mean he would want a front axle to steer...................i think i got that part

but, thank you for clearing that up


besides i belive i originally said:

"if we are "JUST" speaking of the outters..............then yeah it would be a fine doner axle....most likely cheaper as well.
that "

meaning that they are the same as a 44

[Indyguy]

Originally posted by TrooperRS
oh really? you mean he would want a front axle to steer...................i think i got that part

The 12bolt is pretty stout, as the pictures show. I was impressed by how beefy the components looked (axles, ring gear, pinion) during the ARB install.
________
Peachy

[kyrel69]

Originally posted by TrooperRS


oh really? you mean he would want a front axle to steer...................i think i got that part

but, thank you for clearing that up


besides i belive i originally said:

"if we are "JUST" speaking of the outters..............then yeah it would be a fine doner axle....most likely cheaper as well.
that "

meaning that they are the same as a 44

well you talking about C-clip and no front alxe ever had C-clips. Also the different size 10 bolts are only in the rear of cars.

As far as the inners not being heat treated and can not be cut down. Well I would think that is wrong b/c we have a guy that cuts down 10 bolts shafts to use in he bronco's front d44.

[Independent4x]

OK...UNCLE, UNCLE.

I AM NO EXPERT on the 10 Bolt..................

i stand corrected on the c-clip part, but i had a customer who tried to narrow a front 10 bolt and was told it wasn't do-able due to the brittle nature of the shafts and the heat treating...........personally no experience......oh well he could have been wrong.

yes there are different versions...........the 28 and 30 spline versions.

i will highlight some of the 10 bolt weaknesses:

-although it IS bigger than a d44 ......the 10 bolt pinion gear is weak because there is no mid-point bearing to keep the pinion shaft from flexing away from the ring gear

- 1.28 inner shafts vs. 1.31 D44


- thinner (0.3 wall, i think) axle tubes vs. thicker wall D44 - common cause for the axle tube bending near the differential housing

- inner shafts "neck down" right behind the splines.....causing a failure prone inner shaft

- gearing above 4.56 becomes very weak





that is just a couple items..................anyway............basically i am saying for the same $$ the D44 has my vote all day long.........they are easy to find, cheap to build, and there is aftyermarket falling from the sky for them. seems a clear choice really.



get off the 10 bolts and lets throw around some ideas on this axle build up.

[kyrel69]

well I was not trying to start a war about the 10 bolt vs the 44.

People just got some idea that the 10 bolt is so bad. b/c of the rear alxe one.


as far as the neck down of the axle.

Stock d44 and 10bolt neck down to the same size. I have mic. them my self.

About the pinion. How is it weaker. I have yet to see a 10 bolt pinion broke in half or the ring gear striped off. I have see many a d44 pinion broke in half


How does the 10 bolt pinion get so much weaker after you go lower than 4.56? I have never heard of this(not same it is not true) just want to know what this is based on?


and since you are soo nice

[saprobe]

"yes there are different versions...........the 28 and 30 spline versions."

not really.the 30 spline inner shafts were only used in the last year of production. all the other specs are the same,so we cant really call that a different version.


"-although it IS bigger than a d44 ......the 10 bolt pinion gear is weak because there is no mid-point bearing to keep the pinion shaft from flexing away from the ring gear"

that makes it just like a 44,and about every other axle. the only american axles that come to mind that use a 3 bearnig setup are the 9" and 14 bolt,and thats really just due to their design of having a removeable pinion housing.

"- 1.28 inner shafts vs. 1.31 D44"

that is just the spline area diameter. the overall shaft dimeter is the same at 1.31(they use the same inner seal,remember?)


"- thinner (0.3 wall, i think) axle tubes vs. thicker wall D44 - common cause for the axle tube bending near the differential housing"

not true. i have checked 10 bolts,chevy 44s,waggy 44s,and scout 44s. i can put up pics if youd like.

"- inner shafts "neck down" right behind the splines.....causing a failure prone inner shaft"

no way! really! again,thats just like the 44 shaft. the 44 and 10 bolt shafts neck down to the exact same diameter before the splines, so it doesnt really matter much what the splines are. the neck doen is the weak point.

"- gearing above 4.56 becomes very weak"

huh?not sure what you base that on. as i mentioned,due to the high(numerically low) carrier break of 2.73/3.08(3.73 and 3.92 for the 44) 10 bolt ring gears are much thicker than comparable ratio 44 gears. last time i checked,thicker=stronger.


"that is just a couple items..................anyway............basically i am saying for the same $$ the D44 has my vote all day long.........they are easy to find, cheap to build, and there is aftyermarket falling from the sky for them. seems a clear choice really."

44s are easier to find than 10 bolts?! thats a good one! 10 bolts are way easier to shop for. same width,found only in chevy trucks. and a nice long production run with hardly any changes. 44s come with different inner axleshaft splines in older axles,different widths,reverse cut,standard cut,even open/close knuckle.

since they were also used in the rear of cars,used stuff is plentiful. ive gotten a true trac for $120,an EZ locker for $100,and my 4.56 gears for free

yup, choice is pretty obvious to me



"get off the 10 bolts and lets throw around some ideas on this axle build up."

okay,all you gotta do is admit that the 10 bolt is superior to a 44

from your other post:

"there are multiple versions correct? "

nope.just the 8.5" ring gear up front. some cars,s-10 blazers,etc. did use a 7.5 or an 8.2, but were not discussing rear 10 bolts here

"many of the 10 bolts are small bearing and use c-clips ...no?"

ummmm,no. all front 10 bolts use the same bearings,and none use C clips.

"as well the inner shafts are not heat treated and therefore are not a candidate for re-splining"

dont think so. as kyrel mentioned,we have a friend that regularly cuts them down and reuses them in his bronco 44(i guess 10 bolt shafts are easier to find than bronco 44 shafts.hmmm) he doesnt seem to have any prollems with them.

"this is why you do not see "narrowed" 10 bolts? correct?"

no,the reason that you dont see that is simply cause most people have the mistaken notion like you,that they are crap. if i were to want a narrow trac width,id narrow a 10 bolt before id waste my time on a 44.

we like wide,however. helps us keep the rubber side down

there are a couple pics of my front axle here:
http://nightcrawlers4wd.20megsfree.com/photo6.html

just to show you that i do feel the 10 bolt is worthy of modifing and running. if you go to the "trail pics and general photos" page,youll see a couple of pics of my friends choptop trail rig,that the front 12 bolt will be going into.he drives an 89 RS daily,BTW. i sent him the link to your site,he really digs your rig.

not sure why you put up the pics of the 44 and the 12 bolt. there has never been a question,there- ill back you up 100% that the isuzu rear is a beefy unit. my friend beats on his welded 12 bolt pretty good,and it holds up fine

the dana 44 has got to be one of the most over-rated axles of all time. maybe almost as much as the ford 9 inch. mags and the internet drill it into you-"you want a 44" . as a result,some axles like the front 10 bolt,rear isuzu 12 bolt,and the FSJ amc 20 dont get near the credit that they deserve. i however,like to base my opinions on facts and numbers,rather general statements like "the 10 bolt is crap".

the ford 9 inch has such devoted fans,its funny. its got some good points, but in a stock axle you get 31 splines at best and a pinion thats lower than any other axle out there. you have to spend a boatload of $$ on a 9" to make it half as strong as a $50 GM 14 bolt. in the "beef per dollar spent" category no axle comes close to a 14 bolt. sure there are some stronger axles,but none that can be had as cheap. people are finally catching on to that. hope their increasing popularity doesnt dry up our ability to pick them up for almost nothin/

anyway,back off my "over rated axle" soapbox,i have a fondness for the trooper cause it was in one of these that i was first introduced to this wonderful sport of 4 wheeling,so im all about helping my friend beef his up and make it more capable.

further discussion on this matter? or can we now turn it back to making a front 12 bolt

[fledgling666]

wow, i thought this was supposed to be about an Isuzu 12-bolt rear being modified to run in the front, which would be a very cool idea, no matter what parts you used to make it work. i thought about doing the same thing with a Kia rear axle, but it would just cost a fortune. i'd likely use D30 ends because the Kia rear is about the strength and size as a D35 and D30 ends also sometimes came on 44's, so i figure it's good enough, but i'd have to have totally custom shafts made as the diameter is 1.07", a lot smaller than the 44 or 10 bolt and even smaller that the 35 or 30, if i'm not mistaken. it would still be cool and i may do it still, but not as a project, just as tinkering. as far as mog ends, thought about that too, would be awesome, a couple fab shops sell weld-on flanges to bolt the outers on and all you'd have to do is get the shafts from whatever axle you choose to fit the mog outer, maybe even some sort of coupler could work or a custom CV set-up. my 2 cents..........

[Independent4x]

Originally posted by saprobe


okay,all you gotta do is admit that the 10 bolt is superior to a 44

nope, not going to happen, we will have to aggree to disagree..........................this is really splitting hairs............the differences are minimal, maybe irrelevent. when it comes down to it they are both just 1/2 tons and for all intents and porposes........pretty much the same it sounds like. i feel like the D44 has just enough of an edge for me to favor it.

so at that point it is a preference....and i prefer the D44

Originally posted by saprobe



,BTW. i sent him the link to your site,he really digs your rig.

cool.....................thanks...............it is a work in progress as they all are.

Originally posted by saprobe


not sure why you put up the pics of the 44 and the 12 bolt. there has never been a question,there- ill back you up 100% that the isuzu rear is a beefy unit. my friend beats on his welded 12 bolt pretty good,and it holds up fine

i posted them......well because i had them, and for reference and "search" value......you know so down the line someone might say......"shit, the isuzu axle is not crap afterall"

Originally posted by saprobe


in the "beef per dollar spent" category no axle comes close to a 14 bolt. sure there are some stronger axles,but none that can be had as cheap.

well we do agree there

Originally posted by saprobe


further discussion on this matter? or can we now turn it back to making a front 12 bolt

nope.....................Fawk it you can have all the 10 bolts


what are your estimations on final width and a plan for the inner shafts?