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Old 04-14-2003, 10:25 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Lightbulb 4.0 + TF727 (some questions)

Hi !

I bought a TF727 from an '80 Chief without an tc and now I want to put it behind the 4.0.

1. My dealer ask me 100 of questions to find the correct tc: Lock Up or non Lock Up tc, spline count, diameter (11,25" or 10"), low or high stall etc. pp and the only things I know stay above.

2. Can I use the flex plate from a 4.0 XJ automatic to adapt the tc from the TF727 ?

3. I read something about a "LOKAR" kick down cable that I need to adapt the TF727 to a 4.0, can I also use a 4.0 XJ kick down cable ?


I hope anybody can help me here......I think I,m the first in Germany that do this swap because, no one can answer me this question and I don't want to do it like: Try and error.

Thanks and greets, Pierre
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Old 04-14-2003, 01:10 PM   #2 (permalink)
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as long as the torque converter bolt pattern (4 bolts in an offset cross) matches the flex plate on the 4.0, you should be golden.

for a 727/4.0 combo, you probly want a non-lockup (most full size jeep autos were non lockup), low stall, 10" converter.

good luck
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Old 04-14-2003, 01:24 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi WillyPete ,
what do you mean with " golden ...... ? I need a 100% sure answer to my question.Does the bolt pattern from the 4.0 XJ flex plate fix the 11" converter (727 tranny with lock up converter) from a 80 Jeep Cherokee Chief ????
Pierre

Thanks budd
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Old 04-14-2003, 01:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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That's what I found on my search for the right tc:

RTF-13 Torque Converter
The RTF-13 for Chrysler 727, TF8 Lock Up Transmissions

Key Identifiers:
11.250" Diameter
1.812" Pilot Hub Diameter
Input Spline= 24
Mounting: 4 Rectangular pads with a bolt circle diameter of 10"
NO Ring Gear
NO Weights
Fits Model Year 79-89
For All Engine Sizes (Jeep)


That's the only one tc that i found for the 727 from an 80 Chief: 11,25" Lock Up
Can anybody confirm that ?

Pierre
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Old 04-14-2003, 01:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
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what he means by golden is youre good to go, it will work
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Old 04-14-2003, 01:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by INFAMOUSBUTCHER
what he means by golden is youre good to go, it will work


Thanks !

Can anybody answer me the other questions or have a hint for me what I can do better or is better? I need more infos !

Pierre
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Old 04-15-2003, 09:17 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Hey, what's wrong ? I need more infos !

Where are the guy's who did this swap too ?

You can explain me what parts fits and what probs I get etc.


I write here with my bad english in hope anybody can help me, but I think this thread going still down here.......

I thought the experts here done every swap/combination of any tranny, t-case and motor what you can get on the junkyard or elsewhere.
At the time, I'm disappointed from the posts/answers to my questions, because I need an exact 100% sure/right answer with some explanation to do my swap/work.


In hope for more infos, Pierre
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Old 04-15-2003, 09:28 AM   #8 (permalink)
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If you want a 100% correct answer, hire someone to do it for you . They gave some pretty good info here so quit you fawkin sniveling. .
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Old 04-15-2003, 01:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Norm
If you want a 100% correct answer, hire someone to do it for you . They gave some pretty good info here so quit you fawkin sniveling. .

Okok , but I promised me more infos about that because I read that some guys drive this combo and I think that the TF727 comes not with witchcraft behind the 4.0, or ?
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Old 04-15-2003, 01:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Norm
If you want a 100% correct answer, hire someone to do it for you
Ok: Give me the money for an mechanic AND for the overpriced parts from american-cars and I let the swap do and then I tell everybody I do the swap myself, but I cant get specific answers to specific questions.
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Old 04-15-2003, 07:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre
That's what I found on my search for the right tc:

RTF-13 Torque Converter
The RTF-13 for Chrysler 727, TF8 Lock Up Transmissions

Key Identifiers:
11.250" Diameter
1.812" Pilot Hub Diameter
Input Spline= 24
Mounting: 4 Rectangular pads with a bolt circle diameter of 10"
NO Ring Gear
NO Weights
Fits Model Year 79-89
For All Engine Sizes (Jeep)


That's the only one tc that i found for the 727 from an 80 Chief: 11,25" Lock Up
Can anybody confirm that ?

Pierre
well, thats what I had in my 1980 cherokee cheif
Mine was a lockup, most apparently arent.

I dont have the pictures handy, but if your trannys input shaft has splines all the way to the end, its a non lockup, if it has a smooth "nub" on the very end its a lockup. I realize its hard to visualize without seeing both to compare.

as far as the flexplates, man I have NO idea, the 4.0 XJ auto runs a Aisin-warner 4 speed right? what are the odds its the same.
if you have the 4.0 flexplate, take it to a parts store, and compare it with a 1987 grandwagoneer ( or any fullsized Jeep wih a V8 and tf727)

I know its been done before, I just dont know who has the info.

you might check offroad.com there is a bbs forum thingy there with alot of short Jeep info also, but its been down all day, most info there is not such hardcore wheeling as here, but there is alot of swap info there.

good luck!
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Old 04-15-2003, 09:02 PM   #12 (permalink)
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i think maybe you should look into flexplates for wrangler 4.0s, seeing as they also used the torqueflite (tfXXX) series transmissions.
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Old 04-15-2003, 10:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Hi !

Later I post a pic from the tranny inputshaft, maybe you can say me something to this shaft.


Thanks, Pierre
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Old 04-16-2003, 09:50 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Here the pic's:






When I understand Ozarkjeep right, it's a lLock Up tc.
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Old 04-16-2003, 01:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
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that is for sure Im 100% positive a NON-lockup tf727.

I havent had time to search for any flexplate info yet, Ill try later.

maybe yjs or even Tjs would be a good start.
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Old 04-16-2003, 02:06 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ozarkjeep
that is for sure Im 100% positive a NON-lockup tf727.

I havent had time to search for any flexplate info yet, Ill try later.

maybe yjs or even Tjs would be a good start.
Hmm..........but on the page where I found the specs for the right tc there are no NON Lock up listed for a 80' tf727 ?!

Thanks for your effort !

Greets, Pierre
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Old 04-16-2003, 02:09 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Thats the link with the tc's:

link
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Old 04-16-2003, 03:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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You need to ID the lock-up vs. non-lock up TC question, to buy the correct model part. You want to make sure the TC is for a 258ci AMC six with the TF727.

When you get the TC, if it uses the same four bolt pattern and spacing as the XJ flexplate, test fit it for clearance. There should be no more than 2-3mm of TC movement to snug up the TC to the flexplate, and the centering nub on the TC needs to fit into the center of the 4.0L crank. This has to be checked before installation.

Next question is what year 4.0L engine? This will determine your options for locating the crank position sensor needed for the 4.0L MPI. To run the MPI with this trans, you may have to cut a slot in the TF bellhousing to mount the CPS.

The flex plate you need is also dependent on the year of 4.0L engine.

The 87-90 4.0L is RENIX MPI and the correct flexplate is from a 87-90 Wrangler with the 258/TF999 trans (same basic trans as a TF727). This flexplate may be the same as the 4.0L part (have them cross reference the part numbers).

The 91+ is Mopar 4.0LHO MPI and the correct flexplate is from a 91-95 Wrangler with 4.0L/TF999 trans. Again, this flexplate may be the same as the 4.0L part (have them cross reference the part numbers).

The 91-95 model 4.0L HO MPI offers the option to relocate the CPS to the front of the 4.0L on a special balancing dampener (and avoid the trouble of cutting the TF case for the CPS).

I am no help on the kickdown cable options (maybe a TF999 cable?), someone else will have to speak up.

Happy Trails!
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Old 04-16-2003, 08:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I dont know what to tel you abot the converter you found Pierre,
that tranny shaft that you gave a picture for is for a NON lockup converter, Im lookinf grigh tnow at the link you gave, Ill try and see if I can add anything else.

instead of doing the kickdown linkage, why not modify the trans to be fully manual?

if the 4.0 xj has a kickdown cable, it could probably be modified to work with the 727, its really simple once youve looked and messed with one, the farther you push teh throttle, the more pressure is on the kickdown, it controls shifts this way, just about that simple. the more pressure on teh kickdown, the longer it holds in the current gear, AND the more its pushed the sooner it will downshift (passing gear)



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Old 04-16-2003, 08:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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look at RTF-1, and RTF-3...

both are listed for Jeep,727 and NON lockup.

rtf-1 is a larger diameter, probably a lower stall speed, I would think it would be better if your flexplate can accomodate it, other wise the RTF-3 looks more like the stock wag converter, its about 1600 RPM stall ( stock)

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Old 04-18-2003, 03:00 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Thanks Ozark and Steve

Ok,the RTF-3 tc must be the right tc, because ozark wrotes that the tranny needs a non lock up tc.
Good !

Now I also have a XJ flexplate here with a 10" bolt circle diameter for the tc and the RTF-3 have these bolt pattern.

Ok, now I know that the tc and xj flexplate MUST fit (i hope )
Corrects me when I understand something wrong and I wrote only stupid things

For the shifting I buyed a B&M Shifter and I think that we try to cut a hole in the TF727 bellhousing for the CPS. The kick down cable........anyhow we make it that it fits.


Now I have some questions for the tranny himself, because there holes, levers, plugs and I want to know wich funktion they have. I post later the pics from the parts, I hope you can say me what they are for.

Thanks and greets, Pierre
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Old 04-18-2003, 06:50 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Hi !

Here are now the pics. First the tranny:









If anybody can say me somthing or have hints, tipps or can decode the numbers (like axle bom's), I'm interested



Here the pic's, where I have questions for:




Ocher & White: Which is oil inlet and wich outlet ?

Red & Blue: What is the arm for the kick down cable and what is the shifter arm ? The blue I cant move for- or backward. Is this ok ?

Yellow: Back drive Light ?

Green: Kick down bar ? I dont know it, is connected with the blue one




Red: For what is that screw ?




Green & Red: For what are the screws ?




Can anybody decode this number or what this number mean ?




Thanks an greets, Pierre
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Old 04-19-2003, 07:46 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Hi !

Ok, now I measured today the XJ flex plate bolt pattern for the tc and the bolt pattern dont fit !

The XJ fp has a 9,25" bolt pattern (4 holes) but I need a 10" bolt pattern

Now I searched for Infos by google etc. to check if the 4.0 HO fp from a TF999 has a 10" bolt pattern but I cant find anything.

Did anyone can check the bolt pattern by a 4.0/tf999 fp or know the size ?

Greets, Pierre
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Old 04-22-2003, 12:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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all of those screws or plugs, plug various pressure areas of the servos, and they allow you to test the pressure there with a guage to diagnose problems.. you dont need to mess with them

I cant remember which fitting is the send and return on the cooler lines, its really obvious once you put it in gear, one will squirt and the other wont. hehe

the green circled arm under neath the gear selecor is the kickdown arm
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ozarkjeep

I cant remember which fitting is the send and return on the cooler lines, its really obvious once you put it in gear, one will squirt and the other wont. hehe

the green circled arm under neath the gear selecor is the kickdown arm

Hehe, good test method


To the green arm: I can't move the blue circled arm who is connected with the kickdownarm forward or backward. Did I need pressure in the trany to move them ? He's strongly fix......
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