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Old 10-13-2003, 01:59 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Alternative to Anti-wrap Ladder on SOA CJ

O.k I finished my SOA on my 1982 CJ8 with 36" TSLs Ford 9" rear, Dana 44 front, 5.0, blah, blah blah...

Put RE 1.5 SOA YJ springs in front and had customized stok YJ springs in rear. Well after a couple of trips the passenger side (side with the anti-wrap ladder bar) springs in the rear flattened out.

I just bought some RE springs for the rear but I am afraid to use the ladder bar because at $125. I can't afford to replace the RE springs every fouth wheeling trip.

SO I come here asking for anti-wrap bar/ladder alternatives.

I used the search engine here to get the info I needed on building the bar and didn't see any alternative ideas.

So what else can I do?

Mark
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Old 10-13-2003, 02:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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4 link

Are you saying you bought the RE SOA springs, with the reverse spring eyes, and are about to put them on? I just put those on my brothers YJ, and they helped a lot with his axle wrap, he is not running a ladder bar.
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Old 10-13-2003, 03:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/


http://www.jeepaholics.com/citizensb...TOPIC_ID=13723
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Old 10-13-2003, 03:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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While the description claims this as a vertical solution as opposed to the typical horizontal solution, the forces are still being transferred in a horizontal manner. The design is interesting but it almost looks like you need a lift to run this thing. Maybe I'm just not seeing it right.

All new ideas are certainly welcome, and this seems to be working well for those already using it, so it's obviously another solution to the problem whether I see it correctly or not.
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:00 PM   #5 (permalink)
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slick design for sure...just have to get that gas tank out of the way
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:04 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I think you are prematurly pointing the finger at the anti wrap bar. I understand your concern for your newly aquired and expensive RE springs however there is a 99% chance, at least in my mind, that the wrap bar did not lead to spring sag. This is unless the designe of the ladder bar causes some kind of bind in the spring (upper traction bar mount doesnt allow enough movement and causes springs to S when flexing) The Bambar uses the same principles to limit axle wrap, only it relies on the springs themselves as the lower bars of the link setup.

You have just ran into a problem many have incountered before you, stock YJ springs even if beefed up are not up to the task of wheeling.
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by JeeperJake
slick design for sure...just have to get that gas tank out of the way

Take another look at the pics. It's all above the pumpkin and the
gastank isn't an issue.
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Well I have a simplified version torque bar link run with a similar concept. I essentially made a center triangle style truss directly over the diff housing welding the ends to the tube itself(I have a Dana 60, wouldnt recommend on a dana 35). I wanted to mount a center link with the length matching that of the length from the front spring eye to center of axle. I then wanted to match the angle from the center eye of the front spring mount to the center pin of the spring pack at normal ride compression. By doing this I have a center link that almost matches the horizontal travel of the rear housing. Its much simpler then the compound center link we're talking about here on the hyperlink.

As for my spring wrap history though,........even with this simple center link, I still managed to wrap 3 BDS passenger side rear springs(they are garbage for SOA or anything over 38"). I then went to RE 2.5" heavy duty spring pack with add-a-leaf and havent any major right side sag. With a single link leaf spring set up the right spring is going to take a beating because of the torque effect from the drive shaft. The RE are a much better spring then the average lift spring and a world better then the stock YJ spring.
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Old 10-13-2003, 09:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by apeters89


While the description claims this as a vertical solution as opposed to the typical horizontal solution, the forces are still being transferred in a horizontal manner. The design is interesting but it almost looks like you need a lift to run this thing. Maybe I'm just not seeing it right.

All new ideas are certainly welcome, and this seems to be working well for those already using it, so it's obviously another solution to the problem whether I see it correctly or not.
You see it correctly. This was HASHED out heavily a few months back. It is, essentially, a single link anti wrap bar on a REALLY tall mount. Anyone who says different needs to go find the other thread and they can read about it there. I'm not going to get into it all over again. There is a very good pic with the rotational forces shown... pic says a 1000 words every time.

I am not saying it doesn't work for those that use it, or that they didn't put a lot of time into it, but when it comes down to it, its just another single arm setup.
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Old 10-13-2003, 10:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by rkcrawl



I am not saying it doesn't work for those that use it, or that they didn't put a lot of time into it, but when it comes down to it, its just another single arm setup.

AMEN!
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Old 10-13-2003, 10:56 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Not to sound like a dumbass newbie, but what I figured out from seeing it over and over again is the lack of bumpstops. Most people do a SOA and never even bother with bumpstops. Once the springs go into negative arch there shot. Just my .02
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Old 10-14-2003, 07:07 AM   #12 (permalink)
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http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/susp/axlewrap/

single bar setups don't work:
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Old 10-14-2003, 07:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Here is a product from Nth Degree Mobility.

http://www.nthdegreemobility.com/stinger.htm

I like the idea since I have very little room on either side of the pumpkin due to my dual exhaust to use a ladder bar.

I don't think that it would be considered a single bar setup due to the fact that the pinion is hard fastened to the unit.

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this type of setup?

Last edited by Limerick; 10-14-2003 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 10-14-2003, 07:38 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I dont think it is readily available yet, website says "available October 2003"

-Mel
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:57 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mel85CJ
I dont think it is readily available yet, website says "available October 2003"

-Mel
Thanks for your vast wisdom.

The one that was not available until October 2003 is their redesigned model. They were selling a different one before this one which was based on the same concept.
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Old 10-14-2003, 02:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Limerick
Here is a product from Nth Degree Mobility.

http://www.nthdegreemobility.com/stinger.htm

I like the idea since I have very little room on either side of the pumpkin due to my dual exhaust to use a ladder bar.

I don't think that it would be considered a single bar setup due to the fact that the pinion is hard fastened to the unit.

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this type of setup?
That is a GAy assed POS if I ever saw one.

Look closely at the Passenger side spring, see how it is arched backwards?

That is my problem (and theirs too evidently)

heres the picture

As for the feedback thanks guys, I guess I should have specified GOOD, WORKING alternatives to the ladder bar.

I intend to run just the RE springs (no antiwrap) this weekend to see how they hold up on my Ford 9" and 36s.
I agree that the stock YJ springs no matter haw they are "built" are just polished pieces of shit doing noting but adding weight. I hope the REs do me right like my front one have.

If It's wrapping out of control I'll be back.

Thanks again


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Old 10-14-2003, 03:38 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Has anyone had any luck with this design?
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Old 10-14-2003, 03:41 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrmacrro

Look closely at the Passenger side spring, see how it is arched backwards?
That would be because the spring is fully compressed! Notice the driver side is fully arched meaning full droop. The picture was obviously taken on an RTI ramp or something similar.
But, it is basically just the same as the traditional traction/anti wrap bar. It just attaches in a different manner. I am not keen on it either though. Seems to me the best designs are the traditional one, and that BamBar.
best way to fix that wrap, 4 link.
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Old 10-14-2003, 04:05 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Can anybody here testify to the bambar.

Can you get vertical (well almost vertical) with all the weight on the rear axles and still get "zero axle wrap" ?

I guess I just can't seem to get over the fact that it looks to me like there is still going to be some pinion pivot.

Am I wrong?

Are these guys drinking the Cool-Ade or am I just missing the boat?
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Old 10-14-2003, 04:39 PM   #20 (permalink)
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thats still a single position setup and yes the pinion will walk up and down.

Idealy you need somthing at top and bottom thats allows for no pinion walk.


Redo your antiwrap bar.
Your springs are what failed, and not from the bar.

If anything a correctly engineered ladder bar will keep the springs from sagging.

Last edited by "D"; 10-14-2003 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 10-14-2003, 04:49 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Why would a ladder bar cause the springs to flatten out. Wouldn't that more likely be just from use. And if it is from the ladder bar how would a setup like this:



be much different. Looks pretty much the same to me except that without the "ladder" structure it would prolly just bend.

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Old 10-14-2003, 05:19 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrmacrro


That is a GAy assed POS if I ever saw one.

Look closely at the Passenger side spring, see how it is arched backwards?

That is my problem (and theirs too evidently)

heres the picture

Um the springs are arched negativly because that jeep is flexed out. look closely.

Q
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Old 10-14-2003, 06:38 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Alternative to Anti-wrap Ladder on SOA CJ

Quote:
Originally posted by mrmacrro

Put RE 1.5 SOA YJ springs in front and had customized stok YJ springs in rear. Well after a couple of trips the passenger side (side with the anti-wrap ladder bar) springs in the rear flattened out.
I have to agree with others in saying that your wrap bar might not be the culprit.

Are you running properly placed bump stops to limit negative arch?

ANd what do you mean by "customized stock" YJ springs?

If you had them re-arched or soemthing I would say thats your problem...

Personally I'm running a ladder bar with 2.5" lift springs with no problems with plenty of use...don;t see how a properly designed bar would mess up one side really.

MJ
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrmacrro

I intend to run just the RE springs (no antiwrap) this weekend to see how they hold up on my Ford 9" and 36s.
... I hope the REs do me right like my front one have.
A buddy of mine is running that combo on a CJ8. He's only been on the trail twice & some around town driving, but no problems yet.
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Old 10-14-2003, 10:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Everyone is saying 4 link (so join'em) Just think about what I was talking to you about at Reiter - 2 leaf springs 4 shackles and 4 link - you can always play around with coil springs or c/o's later if you get tired of leaf springs

I think that is about the only way you are going to get rid of that forced neg. arch (mine does the same thing) - Just my 2 cts

Matt

Bumpstops would help too....
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