400HP pump gas friendly 4.5L stroker

[YJ_and_Corey]

I really want to see your engine scream

Me too brother - thanks for all the input.

It screams now - I'm hoping to move it into the "sick" category.

---------

Ok, just read the email. Wow. Give me a few days to absorb all that information. It is indeed, pretty intense.

I will run through the numbers, and see where we are. And get back to you.

[D K]

Great thread!

I am planning on doing something very similar and was doing a feasibility study t/c vs. s/c. Still don't know...

Why did you use the older style block? Aren't the newer ones with the girdle and more webbing better?

Also, what do you do with the deck height difference? Do you mill the block, or are the rods (or pistons) compensated to get the correct squinch volume?

Just curious.

This will be my first Jeep build, but I've been involved with some outrageous turbo builds in the past.

dk

[jpfrk2001]

Originally Posted by D K

Great thread!

I am planning on doing something very similar and was doing a feasibility study t/c vs. s/c. Still don't know...

Why did you use the older style block? Aren't the newer ones with the girdle and more webbing better?

Also, what do you do with the deck height difference? Do you mill the block, or are the rods (or pistons) compensated to get the correct squinch volume?

Just curious.

This will be my first Jeep build, but I've been involved with some outrageous turbo builds in the past.

dk

the blocks from 1993 or newer are just fine to use. I really don't think they changed much since the last one putout in 2005(the last of the TJ) Between those years, I have never heard of one being stronger then the other. You use the crank and rods of the 258 and pistons of the 4.0 and there shouldn't be any concerns. Its not squinch, its called quench volume and that is solved by the size of the headgasket. Go to this site http://jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/index.html

then come back into the site with any questions

As for the turbo.... im still trying to make a decision on which one to go with. Don't go to 505 performance. Way too expensive and the turbo they use is actually for an engine larger then 6.2 liter for a minumum horspower of 1000 HP. So by the time that turbo starts to spool up, you have to change gears. think of trying to fill up a 55 gallon barrel drum of water using a one quart cup and you want to fill it in one minute. It WILL NEVER HAPPEN

A super charger has less tunning ability. the only way to get more or less is changing out the pully. Not to mention the horspower needed to turn the thing. A turbo you can tune by the turn of an adjustable waste gate. Thats right. Go from 5 psi of boost to 20 plus psi of boost by an adjustable waste gate at the turn of a screw. And the exhaust gases are the thing turning the turbine. So you really arent using any horsepower to turn the compressor. This reply SOOO belongs in the non hardcore forum. Prepare to be flamed

[YJ_and_Corey]

Great thread!

I am planning on doing something very similar and was doing a feasibility study t/c vs. s/c. Still don't know...

Why did you use the older style block? Aren't the newer ones with the girdle and more webbing better?

Also, what do you do with the deck height difference? Do you mill the block, or are the rods (or pistons) compensated to get the correct squinch volume?

dk

I agree, superchargers are bunk. This could get pretty techy, but as jpfrk2001 pointed out they are parasitic of engine power - they need power to make power.

I currently run a 98' block with the NVH designation and girdle (It's got the internal webbing), with a 93' head. It's a blueprinted and balanced 4.0L.

To be honest, all the years are good. All the blocks have high nickel content, and are pretty damn rugged. The 93' block I'm building now is going to be just fine.
Gonna be it's first rebuild, at 0.30 over. It ran to 150,000 miles before this rebuild - so it will be "seasoned" nicely. Lots of heating and cooling cycles.

I'm running 4.0L rods, not 4.2L rods (as previously mentioned) to get my time at TDC down to a minimum, and retain a decent dwell angle. Forced aspiration can be hard on rings, the straighter the piston rises and falls - the better. However, using a 4.0L rod requires a custom piston.

There are now probably 20 ways to build a Jeep I6 stroker. Perhaps read Dino's site (link above), and the excellent TOTM here.

[D K]

Originally Posted by jpfrk2001

the blocks from 1993 or newer are just fine to use. I really don't think they changed much since the last one putout in 2005(the last of the TJ) Between those years, I have never heard of one being stronger then the other. You use the crank and rods of the 258 and pistons of the 4.0 and there shouldn't be any concerns. Its not squinch, its called quench volume and that is solved by the size of the headgasket. Go to this site http://jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/index.html

then come back into the site with any questions

As for the turbo.... im still trying to make a decision on which one to go with. Don't go to 505 performance. Way too expensive and the turbo they use is actually for an engine larger then 6.2 liter for a minumum horspower of 1000 HP. So by the time that turbo starts to spool up, you have to change gears. think of trying to fill up a 55 gallon barrel drum of water using a one quart cup and you want to fill it in one minute. It WILL NEVER HAPPEN

A super charger has less tunning ability. the only way to get more or less is changing out the pully. Not to mention the horspower needed to turn the thing. A turbo you can tune by the turn of an adjustable waste gate. Thats right. Go from 5 psi of boost to 20 plus psi of boost by an adjustable waste gate at the turn of a screw. And the exhaust gases are the thing turning the turbine. So you really arent using any horsepower to turn the compressor. This reply SOOO belongs in the non hardcore forum. Prepare to be flamed

Quench - got it. Since a lot of my background is from tuning shifter kart engines, it was called squish volume..

I agree with the logic that a turbo is more tunable - obviously. It has numerous advantages over an s/c. I was thinking of going with a very small turbo to spool up immediately since the amount of boost that I'm looking for is fairly small. The ideal setup in this case would be a sequential turbo, but that is getting way too complicated.

On the other hand, the advantage that an s/c provides is that it's much more bulletproof and generates less heat. A constantly variable pulley would be nice here, but that probably won't happen...

[D K]

Originally Posted by YJ_and_Corey

I agree, superchargers are bunk. This could get pretty techy, but as jpfrk2001 pointed out they are parasitic of engine power - they need power to make power.

I currently run a 98' block with the NVH designation and girdle (It's got the internal webbing), with a 93' head. It's a blueprinted and balanced 4.0L.

To be honest, all the years are good. All the blocks have high nickel content, and are pretty damn rugged. The 93' block I'm building now is going to be just fine.
Gonna be it's first rebuild, at 0.30 over. It ran to 150,000 miles before this rebuild - so it will be "seasoned" nicely. Lots of heating and cooling cycles.

I'm running 4.0L rods, not 4.2L rods (as previously mentioned) to get my time at TDC down to a minimum, and retain a decent dwell angle. Forced aspiration can be hard on rings, the straighter the piston rises and falls - the better. However, using a 4.0L rod requires a custom piston.

There are now probably 20 ways to build a Jeep I6 stroker. Perhaps read Dino's site (link above), and the excellent TOTM here.

This makes perfect sense. I can't think of an example where a short rod ratio would be advantageous. Longer rods will definiely be the way to go.

If I may ask, who did you pistons? What price point?

Thanks again.

[YJ_and_Corey]

If I may ask, who did you pistons? What price point?

Hesco. Way to fucking expensive but - in stock.

[jpfrk2001]

Here are my suggestions of turbos to use with these engines:

Garrett: GT3071R/71mm/56 trim/.50 a/r for both stock and stroker
T3/T04E 50 trimm w/.48 a/r
GT37/52 trim/.54 a/r
GT35R 68mm/58 trim/.70 a/r (Maybe for stroker only, might be to big)
GT32 71mm/52 trim/ .52 a/r(for stock 4.0 size)

Corey, Take a look at the maps of these turbos and tell me what you think. Am I on the right track or off. These turbos are using the following numbers:
Stock engine: 13.11 MFR@1800RPM / 21.84 MFR@3000RPM /
36.45 MFR@5300RPM

4.7 liter stroker: 15.19 MFR@1800RPM / 25.32 MFR@3000RPM /
42.24 MFR@5300RPM

Both running intercoolers
PR=1.68
Temp out=119
DR=1.58
10 PSI Boost

This was my first round of numbers about 7 weeks ago. I just want a second opinion before I dump 800 bucks on a damn Turbo. I will just get one for the stroker since that is what I will end up with anyways. Probably use your idea on the exhaust manifold and just wrap it.

[YJ_and_Corey]

T3/T04E 50 trimm w/.48 a/r

This is the winner, but I am feeling the 50 trim at slightly too conservative. I have reviewed the maps and I am sure 60-65 is the ticket.

I believe that a large "spread" or flow differential is necessary between intake a/r and exhaust a/r here. In fact, from my neophitic attempts at mapping, an even smaller exhaust a/r may decrease lag - at the expense of heat. I tend to treat the Jeep I6 like a diesel. I like boost down low where it smacks you in the tail.

[10lbs boost seems excessive - unless the engine is turbo specific. I have a feeling you may see leak down on your valve guides in short order. As well, at 10lbs, I am quite sure a dual pattern cam is going to be a problem with your valvetrain.]

A more "aggressive" intake wheel using 50 trim may be the ticket. Does Garret offer a T3/T04E with an upgraded (i.e "race") intake wheel?

I didn't wrap mine - it's right in the undercarriage air flow - wrap the down tube instead to reduce underhood temps and save your starter.

I am in awe of your depth of knowledge on the subject. Good work. I have progress to report - after a visit to the handgun range.

[YJ_and_Corey]

Received some parts today :

Pistons, Billet - Diamond brand from Hesco, balanced, rods + pins installed - 8:1 at 0 deck.



Another:



Dual roller timing chain:



Total Seal plasma moly rings:



Once the new valves get here, it's time to get this whole thing rolling

[ADDICTED2ROCK]

Big Props For Building A Bad Ass 6! Look Forward To Seeing This Thing On The Dyno!!

[YJ_and_Corey]

Ok, heres the update for today:

Looks like we have to upgrade the rings I got from Hesco, but it was my fault for not specifiing to Bennie exactly what I wanted.

Anyhow, these "moly" rings...

http://www.hesco.us/shop.asp?action=...918&catId=7569

....are not steel rings, they are cast with a moly coating on the wear surface. Not cool for turbo applications. The price should have alerted me to that fact. I will use the second ring and oil ring from this set however.

Anyhow, Hastings make a plasma steel moly ring in 3 7/8", and will sell compression rings individually - a race ring in 5/16, file to fit, which will work very well. Will make this engine a bitch to break in however.

-------
On a another note,

For those who are I6 nerds like me, here is a thing we did a few years back. My machinist didn't believe me that we could mill out the spring seats significantly on a 4.0L head to fit taller springs with the modern high lift cams available for the 4.0/4.2 (and retain a 1.700 installed height). He was under the impression that we would mill right into the water jacket.

Wrong! But I had no proof, just hearsay and what I had read. So I used my wet bandsaw and cut one in half to show him. I took pics of it today - you'll see why when I post pics of the assembled head. As you can see, lots of room for a milled seat.

[jpfrk2001]

Hey Corey,
Can you post a complete parts listing with a brief note if needed as per why that part or how to install?

Since you are using the 4.0 Rods with custom pistons, Is this engine going to be about a 4.8 to 5.0 liter? I just remember reading that the combo you are using actually bumps up the size.

I am planning on using the stock 4.2 liter rods as to avoid the expensive custom pistons but spend my money in areas to handle forced induction.

Im going to try and get my crank and rods this weekend just to ease my mind that I have the crucially needed meat and potatos of a stroker.

Keep it up

[YJ_and_Corey]

Hey Corey,
Can you post a complete parts listing with a brief note if needed as per why that part or how to install?

Since you are using the 4.0 Rods with custom pistons, Is this engine going to be about a 4.8 to 5.0 liter? I just remember reading that the combo you are using actually bumps up the size.

I am planning on using the stock 4.2 liter rods as to avoid the expensive custom pistons but spend my money in areas to handle forced induction.

Im going to try and get my crank and rods this weekend just to ease my mind that I have the crucially needed meat and potatos of a stroker.

Keep it up

I could, and I will tonight.

[whitedevil666]

Good job on going turbo!

who's going to be doing the port work on your head? what kind of flow numbers do you expect to see?

[YJ_and_Corey]

Good job on going turbo!

who's going to be doing the port work on your head? what kind of flow numbers do you expect to see?

Tough question to answer. My machinist (Precision Engine Machine Inc.) is doing the porting, however - in a forced aspiration situation (non-race) intake porting is a bit of a waste of time.

As I stated earlier, a simple "gasket match" port is all that the intake ports will receive.

The exhaust is slightly different. To my knowledge, the most important part of exhaust porting happens right underneath (or above I guess) the valve seat. A turbo engine lives longer when the exhaust gets out quicker.

Since we are having trouble finding a wide exhaust duration, hydraulic, minimal-overlap cam for this engine - porting will be crucial to longevity.

Crane makes a suitable custom grind - 75H000008 - for the 4.0L. But it requires timing retard, and timing retard robs power. Isky may have a suitable one - gonna call them tommorrow and see whats what.

We are installing hardened seats - and the only true porting will be "blending" the hardened seats into the cast of the head underneath the seat. In the 4.0L head, the exhaust gases have to make a sharp 90 degree turn upon exiting the cylinder. Our hardened seats will be milled out on the backside (or topside) and the "shoulder" underneath will be removed. It will change the 90 degree bend into a much gentler profile.

[Never Monday]

Is this an intake or exhaust port?


Reason I ask. I'm seeing alot of inefficiency in that port. I did a rough paint of some changes. I think the blue will be a low pressure vortex and the red could be areas to open up.

[YJ_and_Corey]

Is this an intake or exhaust port?

Intake - but it illustrates the point.

You can see where the porting will occur, directly above the waterjacket on the bottom right corner. That semi-square edge will be blended in and smoothed out into a broad transition on the exhaust ports.

Having an HO head cut in half sure helps with knowing how much we can safely remove.

As well, note that the new exhaust valves will be "tuliped" - or hammer style I guess, to flow air faster.

[YJ_and_Corey]

oops

[YJ_and_Corey]

Originally Posted by Never Monday

Is this an intake or exhaust port?


Reason I ask. I'm seeing alot of inefficiency in that port. I did a rough paint of some changes. I think the blue will be a low pressure vortex and the red could be areas to open up.

Definately agree with the your bottom red markings. Thats what we are planning - but a little less removed than your pic.

[YJ_and_Corey]

Got my third copy of the "bible" today.

Second edition, deals more with Renix (Pre-HO) 4.0L.

I'm giving it to my buddy Pedalmesh, he's building a 12 counterweight crank 4.5L stroker for his Renix XJ. We are deliberately bumping up the compression ratio on his, and plan to control detonation via a vacuum controlled Snow Performance stage 1 methanol/water injection kit. He will be using moly coated compression rings and a Comp 68-232-4 cam.

[Nordic1]

sweet build dude

[YJ_and_Corey]

Ok, ordered some more parts today (Canadian Dollar is worth more than the US one today - so out comes the credit card!)

I chose Harland Sharps new Jeep 4.0L 1:6 ratio non-adjustable roller rockers.
They are able to fit under the stock valve cover, and require no custom machining to the rocker bosses. The price was right as well. P/N S40196

I was able to order directly as well.

I also finally chose a cam. In the past I have had good success with Comp Cams products for the 4.0L/4.2L.

I chose the Comp 68-201-4, 260H grind. The biggest reason was the 110 degree lobe separation, which minimizes the overlap between exhaust and intake. This engine is turbo specific after all.

Here are the specs:

Hyd. Hyd. 1200 to 4400 68-201-4 260H /260 260/ /212 212/ /.447 .447/ 110°

[HEEPJEEP]

Do the rockers require pushrod guide plates or are they shaft mounted?

[YJ_and_Corey]

They are pedestal mount, direct replacement.