400HP pump gas friendly 4.5L stroker

[HEEPJEEP]

Nice X :flip: So guide plates are needed?

[YJ_and_Corey]

No, guide plates are not needed.

[Weasel]

Yeah cool build, I would like to rebuild mine in the very near future and am starting to gather information. I hadn't even considered a turbo application, definitely cool.

I know very little about the engine design at this point but was intrigued by the E85 comments, what does E85 allow you to do? Run a higher CR? We have E85 all over the place down here and it's not any more then regular gas. Are there any special things that would have to be done to run E85?

Again very cool.

Where did you find the books at?

[YJ_and_Corey]

I know very little about the engine design at this point but was intrigued by the E85 comments, what does E85 allow you to do? Run a higher CR? We have E85 all over the place down here and it's not any more then regular gas. Are there any special things that would have to be done to run E85?

Again very cool.

Where did you find the books at?

I believe it has something to do with octane levels. I imagine it is available in Canada, in fact I'm sure it is available in the larger cities. I run methanol injection - so octane rating is not a problem.

I got the books from Mopar. I heard a rumour that a 4th edition is coming soon, but we'll see.

----------------------

More parts arrived today

The valves:

Mopar Performance P5249875 full stainless swirl polished intake valves, stock size.

Hesco exhaust valves (from Hesco anyways, Bennie is being tight lipped on the origin of these custom exhaust valves), oversized, tulip valves.

Damn these valves are sexy!

[whitedevil666]

Originally Posted by YJ_and_Corey

Tough question to answer. My machinist (Precision Engine Machine Inc.) is doing the porting, however - in a forced aspiration situation (non-race) intake porting is a bit of a waste of time.

if you are serious about reaching a hp number like 400 with a limited amount of boost (like 8) your cylinder head will make or break the number. the theory of head flow being unimportant in a boosted app. is based on the assumption that you can just turn up the flow (psi). however you have the goal of using a limited amount of boost, which is a good idea, but will limit the potential gain of boost to the amount of airflow produced at the 8psi level. 8psi on a high flow head/intake is a lot more air then 8psi through a restrictive flow path.

to elaborate, 14.7 psi is called i bar. that means it is double atmospheric pressure. your engine when it is "naturally aspirated" is receiving approximately 14.7 "psi" of pressure to the cylinders. if your intake contains 14.7 psi boost then you are allowing your cylinders to receive twice the normal atmospheric pressure, twice the air can enter your engine, and if you use it 100% efficiently you will receive a 100% power increase.
if you are to use 8psi and achieve you goal of 400 hp you will need to build an engine that can produce 258hp naturally aspirated. your boost level of 8 psi will give you an increase of .5442176% yielding 398 hp. that is at 100% efficiency, which is not typical. at 90% efficiency (much more likely) the engine would need to produce 285 hp n/a to yield the 400 number you seek
.
for reference your current combo (which sounds pretty sweet!) putting out 268 (avg) at 6.5 psi should make 185 h/p without the boost. which is why i ask about the head work, you need to make at least 73 more hp n/a to do what you want to do at 8psi. your engine has only 6 intake ports to flow this air through, making them much more critical than on an eight cylinder engine. those 2 missing intake ports make up a 25% flow increase over only having 6. so your ports need to be top notch. i think you need to shoot for at least 250 cfm flow per intake port. those are pretty big numbers for any stock head. the mods to the port that are marked in red in another post are about half right. the part of the port closest to the engine, or the "bottom" of the port is known as the short turn radius and it is extremely important. to modify the short turn radius can be disastrous for airflow. i can only recommend 1 place in canada to have your heads worked (because i only know of 1) sean hyland motorsport. a professional port job on your head will put you much closer to your goal than you would think.

you also never mentioned upgrading your injectors. i think you will need 50-58lb injectors to feed that much hp with only 6 of them. you will probably have to use 50's because most of the injectors with a higher flow rate are of the "low impedance" variety and will require a dedicated injector driver to run.

one last thing, i really hope you don't loose all your low end in pursuit of the big hp number. low end torque is what makes an engine fun to drive off road, but rpm is where big hp numbers are made. hp is merely torque vs. rpm. 350lb/ft at 3000rpm = 200hp, but 350lb/ft at 5000rpm = 333hp, 350lb/ft at 6500rpm = 433hp. same torque just different engine speed. it might be a good idea to run a computer that would allow wore than 1 program, like a "flip chip" so you could have 1 tune set for 87 octane gas and a lower amount of total boost, then another tune set up for increased boost and better gas set up to really put out a number! and remember in all else fails there is always nitrous! nitrous injected in before the turbo has an incredible charge cooling effect! a 50 shot may give you 70-80hp!

[PedalMesh]

[Weasel]

Originally Posted by PedalMesh

meaning? For those of us with no engine know how the above comments are hard to understand.

[YJ_and_Corey]

if you are serious about reaching a hp number like 400 with a limited amount of boost (like 8) your cylinder head will make or break the number. the theory of head flow being unimportant in a boosted app. is based on the assumption that you can just turn up the flow (psi). however you have the goal of using a limited amount of boost, which is a good idea, but will limit the potential gain of boost to the amount of airflow produced at the 8psi level. 8psi on a high flow head/intake is a lot more air then 8psi through a restrictive flow path.

to elaborate, 14.7 psi is called i bar. that means it is double atmospheric pressure. your engine when it is "naturally aspirated" is receiving approximately 14.7 "psi" of pressure to the cylinders. if your intake contains 14.7 psi boost then you are allowing your cylinders to receive twice the normal atmospheric pressure, twice the air can enter your engine, and if you use it 100% efficiently you will receive a 100% power increase.
if you are to use 8psi and achieve you goal of 400 hp you will need to build an engine that can produce 258hp naturally aspirated. your boost level of 8 psi will give you an increase of .5442176% yielding 398 hp. that is at 100% efficiency, which is not typical. at 90% efficiency (much more likely) the engine would need to produce 285 hp n/a to yield the 400 number you seek
.
for reference your current combo (which sounds pretty sweet!) putting out 268 (avg) at 6.5 psi should make 185 h/p without the boost. which is why i ask about the head work, you need to make at least 73 more hp n/a to do what you want to do at 8psi. your engine has only 6 intake ports to flow this air through, making them much more critical than on an eight cylinder engine. those 2 missing intake ports make up a 25% flow increase over only having 6. so your ports need to be top notch. i think you need to shoot for at least 250 cfm flow per intake port. those are pretty big numbers for any stock head. the mods to the port that are marked in red in another post are about half right. the part of the port closest to the engine, or the "bottom" of the port is known as the short turn radius and it is extremely important. to modify the short turn radius can be disastrous for airflow. i can only recommend 1 place in canada to have your heads worked (because i only know of 1) sean hyland motorsport. a professional port job on your head will put you much closer to your goal than you would think.

you also never mentioned upgrading your injectors. i think you will need 50-58lb injectors to feed that much hp with only 6 of them. you will probably have to use 50's because most of the injectors with a higher flow rate are of the "low impedance" variety and will require a dedicated injector driver to run.

one last thing, i really hope you don't loose all your low end in pursuit of the big hp number. low end torque is what makes an engine fun to drive off road, but rpm is where big hp numbers are made. hp is merely torque vs. rpm. 350lb/ft at 3000rpm = 200hp, but 350lb/ft at 5000rpm = 333hp, 350lb/ft at 6500rpm = 433hp. same torque just different engine speed. it might be a good idea to run a computer that would allow wore than 1 program, like a "flip chip" so you could have 1 tune set for 87 octane gas and a lower amount of total boost, then another tune set up for increased boost and better gas set up to really put out a number! and remember in all else fails there is always nitrous! nitrous injected in before the turbo has an incredible charge cooling effect! a 50 shot may give you 70-80hp!

Thanks for the physics, mechanics 101, and mathematics lesson Professor.

Rather than respond to each point, let me make these basic points regarding turbocharging and my build:

- Forced aspiration. The forced part is where we force it into the cylinders. Intake porting at low boost levels is a waste of time and money. Exhaust porting, on the other hand, is not.

- Turbocharging makes torque. Turbocharged engines do not need heavy rotating mass to gain high torque numbers.

- As torque increases, so does horsepower. Torque is what you feel. Torque rules. Horsepower is a number.

- This new engine will move more air. It has a longer stroke, lower compression, and some upgraded flow characteristics via valve work and some mild head porting. Everything about this engine is being chosen to work with a turbo.

- Move more air = spool turbo faster. Spool turbo faster = more bottom end.

- "Selectable" tuning, or "flip chips" are for people that haven't got their tune dialed in. There is one tune for a given fuel injected motor - the best one.

- My injectors will be fine. I am planning on increasing my fuel rail pressure by ~15%, and adding a larger methanol/water injector.

[Weasel]

I though I read you were planning to make the tubro setup a kit? I don't suppose you ahve any diagrams or anything about were everything would be setup? Going to wait on my rebuild until this is done.

[whitedevil666]

Originally Posted by YJ_and_Corey

Thanks for the physics, mechanics 101, and mathematics lesson Professor.

i did not intend to offend you with my remarks. i just want to give you some things to think about as you go through this project. i really like the idea of maximizing the engine you've got rather than swapping and adapting something else. and i really like turbos. that's why i'm reading this.

Rather than respond to each point, let me make these basic points regarding turbocharging and my build:

- Forced aspiration. The forced part is where we force it into the cylinders. Intake porting at low boost levels is a waste of time and money. Exhaust porting, on the other hand, is not.

8psi through a straw is still breathing through a straw. think of it this way: 8psi on a ported head vs. 8psi on a stock head. the ported head flows more without a turbo, the turbo will not even them out but amplify the difference between the two. the reason i talk about head flow is it is normally the most restrictive part of the combination

- Turbocharging makes torque. Turbocharged engines do not need heavy rotating mass to gain high torque numbers.

exactly, but they still need to poke enough air into that engine to make the torque. that can be accomplished with increased boost numbers, or with decreased resistance to flow. the later may be harder to get, but will always serve you better.

- As torque increases, so does horsepower. Torque is what you feel. Torque rules. Horsepower is a number.

yea, a number in the header for your thread. which is why i was talking about it. it sounds like you had great torque on your old combo too. i still kinda wonder why you would change it?

- This new engine will move more air. It has a longer stroke, lower compression, and some upgraded flow characteristics via valve work and some mild head porting. Everything about this engine is being chosen to work with a turbo.

what about "lower compression" makes you think it will move more air? compression is lower on a turbo/forced induction engine to lower the detonation threshold. it makes the engine less efficient and has no other function.

- Move more air = spool turbo faster. Spool turbo faster = more bottom end.

- "Selectable" tuning, or "flip chips" are for people that haven't got their tune dialed in. There is one tune for a given fuel injected motor - the best one.

BS. my mustang has 5 selectable tunes available when driving. i do not use them all, all the time, just useful till you get one you like. but i do keep a nitrous tune on #2 with less timing and slightly richer for use under different engine operating conditions. my point was and is if you set your motor up to give you the best performance at 8psi on one tune, you could make another that is optimized for a higher boost setting, like 12-14 that would be useful under different conditions, and probably set up for higher octane fuel. it is useful, you can have the best of both worlds like this.

- My injectors will be fine. I am planning on increasing my fuel rail pressure by ~15%, and adding a larger methanol/water injector.

your injectors are too small to make 400 horse even at 100% duty cycle. if you increase you fuel pressure 30% it may work, but you will run into reliability problems. that would have to be 30% at 0 boost/vacuum.

once again, this is not a flame. you have a very ambitious build that i am very interested in. i just see a couple of pitfalls i want to help you out with. i look forward to future updates on your project and can't wait to see it run.

[YJ_and_Corey]

once again, this is not a flame. you have a very ambitious build that i am very interested in. i just see a couple of pitfalls i want to help you out with. i look forward to future updates on your project and can't wait to see it run.

Well, I do respect your opinions and input. I like it when people question what I am doing. I disagree with you however - on most of your points. Tell you what, rather than this thread becoming one big argument, let me respond to what you have wrote and lets agree to disagree, fair?

- Your statements about porting are wrong. Pressure doesn't really care about porting on intake. Pressure is always equal at ALL points in a pressurized system. Based on my previous experience with these motors (have built 5 performance ones for myself and others and used the I6 for 10 years), extensive head work is not necessary. It will gulp air - it does already with NO head porting. Intake head porting is for racing or NA applications.

- Get off my fucking injectors already. I don't care what tuner math you are using for your Mustang, I am using water/methanol injection. IT IS THE FUEL UNDER BOOST!

Before you start telling us what works on your Mustang - did you know that a stock Jeep I6 ODB1 or 2 injector does NOT have to be upgraded to run 6lbs of boost when using a mechanical FMU in a forced aspiration scenario?

Do you actually have any experience with the Jeep I6 and forced aspiration that you would wish to share?

what about "lower compression" makes you think it will move more air? compression is lower on a turbo/forced induction engine to lower the detonation threshold. it makes the engine less efficient and has no other function.

Pull your head out of your ass. Lower compression means more cylinder volume. More cylinder volume means more compressed air is able to be forced into the combustion chamber. More air + more fuel = more power. Pretty simple. 7:1 would make even more power under boost.

High performance turbo engines are designed around the magic 8:1 compression ratio every day. It is the best ratio for a properly set up turbo, which minimizes lag and enhances performance.

Nothing to do with detonation control.

[YJ_and_Corey]

I though I read you were planning to make the tubro setup a kit? I don't suppose you ahve any diagrams or anything about were everything would be setup? Going to wait on my rebuild until this is done.

I am and I do. PM me or email me and I will discuss the details of the kit with you.

[My1stNiceJeep]

Cool build.Are the Crane cams still failing in the I6s.I remember reading that alot of people had problems with the Crane cam.Good Luck

[YJ_and_Corey]

I have had good luck with Comp in the past. I did end up choosing a Comp Cam again, Comp 68-201-4, 260H grind.

[whitedevil666]

Originally Posted by YJ_and_Corey

Well, I do respect your opinions and input. I like it when people question what I am doing. I disagree with you however - on most of your points. Tell you what, rather than this thread becoming one big argument, let me respond to what you have wrote and lets agree to disagree, fair?

- Your statements about porting are wrong. Pressure doesn't really care about porting on intake. Pressure is always equal at ALL points in a pressurized system. Based on my previous experience with these motors (have built 5 performance ones for myself and others and used the I6 for 10 years), extensive head work is not necessary. It will gulp air - it does already with NO head porting. Intake head porting is for racing or NA applications.

- Get off my fucking injectors already. I don't care what tuner math you are using for your Mustang, I am using water/methanol injection. IT IS THE FUEL UNDER BOOST!

Before you start telling us what works on your Mustang - did you know that a stock Jeep I6 ODB1 or 2 injector does NOT have to be upgraded to run 6lbs of boost when using a mechanical FMU in a forced aspiration scenario?

Do you actually have any experience with the Jeep I6 and forced aspiration that you would wish to share?



Pull your head out of your ass. Lower compression means more cylinder volume. More cylinder volume means more compressed air is able to be forced into the combustion chamber. More air + more fuel = more power. Pretty simple. 7:1 would make even more power under boost.

High performance turbo engines are designed around the magic 8:1 compression ratio every day. It is the best ratio for a properly set up turbo, which minimizes lag and enhances performance.

Nothing to do with detonation control.

alright chief! i'll be watchin'!

[Sillyneck]

well at least this website is consistant. I thought I was the only one who got sh!t for thinking differently give it hell dude.. I've been watching the build!

[95yj]

I know absolutely nothing about turbo engines. I have nothing of value to add, other than this has been one of the most informative threads I've read on Pirate and I've really gathered a lot from it. Best of luck, and along with Silly, props for being different.

[YJ_and_Corey]

alright chief! i'll be watchin'!

Thought so.

--------------------

No updates or parts received today, so to keep this interesting I thought I'd share a bit more tech. These are the spark-plugs we have been having success with in the turbo engines.

Champion 346, RC10YC4. Few degrees colder then stock, cheap, and easy to find. I have no dyno numbers to support this, but myself and others have reported a little more jam with these plugs when the engine transitions between vacuum and boost.

They also aid in detonation control, in our ODB2 turbo TJ (tricky tuning on these). Tricky to the extent that we are considering building our own box to "trick" the intake air temp. sensor, using a one way check valve to keep the stock MAP from seeing boost, as well as switching to a purely mechanical FMU (same as what is being used on some supercharged JK units).

[project_mud]

COOL BUILD FAWLKER


KOLE FROM EDMONTON

[upj wheeler]

Great build! Very informative, and Im looking forward to seeing dyno-numbers when everythignis finished up.

Im also interested in the Turbo-kit that you're planning on putting together. I've got a 4.2 with about 10k on a rebuild (all new stock internals 0.030 over), and a freshly rebuilt 4.0 head and Electromotie TBI kit sitting on the work bench that will be going on as soon as I can allot some time. Will your "turbo kit" be beneficial or will I end up fawking the internals? Any idea of a price?

[YJ_and_Corey]

Im also interested in the Turbo-kit that you're planning on putting together. I've got a 4.2 with about 10k on a rebuild (all new stock internals 0.030 over), and a freshly rebuilt 4.0 head and Electromotie TBI kit sitting on the work bench that will be going on as soon as I can allot some time. Will your "turbo kit" be beneficial or will I end up fawking the internals? Any idea of a price?

Yes, I imagine it will be beneficial. As long as we limit the boost to 6lbs, everything will be kosher. The fueling will be very similar to an ODB1 4.0L, the TBI is very easy to fool.

The only issue will be bracketry for the 4.2, but judging by your sig line it won't be a problem.

I'll start a new thread sometime in the new year when the kits are ready, and we can talk pricing then. I'm leary to discuss anything about the kits until I have them "perfect".

[B3nMJ]

Originally Posted by YJ_and_Corey

Thought so.

--------------------

No updates or parts received today, so to keep this interesting I thought I'd share a bit more tech. These are the spark-plugs we have been having success with in the turbo engines.

Champion 346, RC10YC4. Few degrees colder then stock, cheap, and easy to find. I have no dyno numbers to support this, but myself and others have reported a little more jam with these plugs when the engine transitions between vacuum and boost.

They also aid in detonation control, in our ODB2 turbo TJ (tricky tuning on these). Tricky to the extent that we are considering building our own box to "trick" the intake air temp. sensor, using a one way check valve to keep the stock MAP from seeing boost, as well as switching to a purely mechanical FMU (same as what is being used on some supercharged JK units).

Really awesome write-up and i like that you stick up for yourself, fawk the haters i want to see this thing scream when its done. I'm really interested in doing this myself..so i'll be watching this thread carefully.

P.S. The jeep 4.0l works better with 6 plugs, instead of 5

[YJ_and_Corey]

P.S. The jeep 4.0l works better with 6 plugs, instead of 5

Shit, no wonder it's not pulling as hard as I thought it should

[jsawduste]

Great thread.
While I have not read every post wondering why you did`nt go with the Eagle rod/Diamond piston route ?

My stroker is based on the 12 weight crank. Eagle rods and had Diamond make up the pistons + .080 "0" deck at TDC. .045 quench via the head gasket. Basic off the shelf parts for Diamond. With the stock chamber (22 cc ? ) actual comp worked out to 9.48:1. Buying from Diamond my cost was way less the 100 per hole, including rings and pins.

Running the Hesco-Erson 274/480 cam advanced 4* The 114 lobe centers still generate enough vacuum at idle to keep the MAP sensor happy.

With the 2000+ intake, 63mm TB on a 1" spacer. 24 lb injectors @ 40 psi AEM filter

Like the painted head cutaway shows. Lotsa meat under the seat. Engle valve spring to keep the open pressure low. Opened both the short side and long side radius and smoothed the bowl.

Sorry, but I question the rockers you are using. The adjustable set from Hesco (Mopar) allowed me to set each valve right on the money. Sure I had to use the VC spacer and water neck but O/A think it was worth it.

Edlebrock header into a 2.5 SS exhaust with a Dynomax muffler.

Do you plan on doing a full balancing ? I did complete with HB and flywheel/P.Plate. Very happy with the result.

Good around town manners and gets darn right nasty from 2500 on up. Nice healthy idle.

Still room for more power with a revised timing/fuel map. Plus injection or forced induction.

Look forward to your reply !!

[YJ_and_Corey]

Great thread.
While I have not read every post wondering why you did`nt go with the Eagle rod/Diamond piston route ?

My stroker is based on the 12 weight crank. Eagle rods and had Diamond make up the pistons + .080 "0" deck at TDC. .045 quench via the head gasket. Basic off the shelf parts for Diamond. With the stock chamber (22 cc ? ) actual comp worked out to 9.48:1. Buying from Diamond my cost was way less the 100 per hole, including rings and pins.

Running the Hesco-Erson 274/480 cam advanced 4* The 114 lobe centers still generate enough vacuum at idle to keep the MAP sensor happy.

With the 2000+ intake, 63mm TB on a 1" spacer. 24 lb injectors @ 40 psi AEM filter

Like the painted head cutaway shows. Lotsa meat under the seat. Engle valve spring to keep the open pressure low. Opened both the short side and long side radius and smoothed the bowl.

Sorry, but I question the rockers you are using. The adjustable set from Hesco (Mopar) allowed me to set each valve right on the money. Sure I had to use the VC spacer and water neck but O/A think it was worth it.

Edlebrock header into a 2.5 SS exhaust with a Dynomax muffler.

Do you plan on doing a full balancing ? I did complete with HB and flywheel/P.Plate. Very happy with the result.

Good around town manners and gets darn right nasty from 2500 on up. Nice healthy idle.

Still room for more power with a revised timing/fuel map. Plus injection or forced induction.

Look forward to your reply !!

I actually decided not to run the Eagle rods because honestly, I didn't think it was necessary. The 4.0L rods are plenty tough (not an Eagle rod by any means), and I trust Bennie at Hesco. He has never steered me wrong. Between his advise and what I had read in the various MOPAR engine books, the 4.0L rod (after being magnafluxed, shot-peened, balanced and refitted with ARP bolts) was plenty strong for what I was planning.

You are running 0.080 over? Holy smokes. Did you sonic test the bores? I have wondered for years what the safe limit is - if you can trust Dino's website it's 0.125....but that seems extreme. The MOPAR racing books I have state that the safe limit for high performance is 0.030 over. Lots of conflicting information on that particular aspect it seems.

Yes, a full balance is being done. Pistons and rods are already weight balanced. Crank will be spin balanced - the I6 is internally balanced, so balancing with the harmonic dampener and flywheel is not required as I understand things.

I'm not worried about the valves with the non-adjustable rockers. My machinist is a perfectionist, and it is not uncommon for him to take the tolerances up to 10,000/inch. He builds performance every day, has a vacuum bench, and I'm trusting him to give me, again, a perfect head.
If the engine was a NA application, then I most likely would run the adjustables.

Which head gasket are you running? Interested.