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Old 02-22-2012, 09:39 PM   #1 (permalink)
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14 Bolt w/ 2.5L?

Hi Everyone,

I am doing a good amount of research on the 14 bolt swap for my 99 TJ. It will be a long and ongoing project so I do have some time. My question is, the Jeep has a 2.5l and I donít plan on swapping that in the near future. I have heard two separate statements as to the lowest gear ratio you can go to with this axle. One was 5.13 and one was 5.38. Is the 5.38 a more recent option for aftermarket gear sets?

I wanted to see if anyone was running this axle with the 2.5L. I am always planning to keep this Jeep streetable and by that i mean Highways for 3-6 hour trips as well. Is the 5.13 or 5.38 low enough to run with 40-42" tires on the highway? This will not be my DD but I also want it to be able to keep up with traffic on trips. Wheeling location is Rausch Creek. Please let me know any thoughts or experience you have.

Also, I have seen mention of looking for a pre 1983 14 bolt but cannot find the reason why.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:08 AM   #2 (permalink)
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5.38 do exist for the 14 bolt, but sometimes require slight modification to housing near the pinion support. However, running a 14 bolt behind a 2.5/ax5/231 seems a bit silly. Running 37's on an 8.8 will net you nearly the same ground clearance as 40-42's on a 14 bolt and will be lighter, narrower and soak up less power. Can you get away with running full widths and 42's on the street where you live?

What's your plan for the front?
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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With a 2.5L turning 42's I would want more crawl ratio than you will get from a 231/5.13 or 5.38. I would shoot for 38s and 5.13s. until you get more motor and/or lower crawl ratio.

5.38's are a good bit weaker than 5.13's.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Manual or auto tranny?

I ran 5.38's for years with 33" tires, then 35" tires behind the 2.5 with the stock manual transmission. 5.38's will put you at about stock gearing with 35's. If you plan on running 42's on the highway for 3-6 hours, it's time to rethink your plan. You can gear down for crawling and make it work, but it's going to be a dog on the pavement.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:38 AM   #5 (permalink)
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dana 70 has 14b like strength, and can go as low as 7.17.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:32 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rocklobster87 View Post
5.38 do exist for the 14 bolt, but sometimes require slight modification to housing near the pinion support. However, running a 14 bolt behind a 2.5/ax5/231 seems a bit silly. Running 37's on an 8.8 will net you nearly the same ground clearance as 40-42's on a 14 bolt and will be lighter, narrower and soak up less power. Can you get away with running full widths and 42's on the street where you live?

What's your plan for the front?
Yeah I agree that it does seem a bit silly but I do plan on swapping the engine/tranny in the future, just not in the near future. My thinking behind this was to only build axles once as I have a 44 already under the Jeep that I got for cheap of CL with 4.10's already in it. An 8.8 wonít be much of an improvement. I am currently running 35's on the 30/44 with 4.10's. I was going to become creative for a way to cover the tires for road trips. Something easy to remove without looking ridiculous. Although, I have been running without flares for some time with the 35's sticking way out as my DD. Surprisingly I have not been pulled over yet. Front will be a 60.

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Originally Posted by BryanDowdy View Post
With a 2.5L turning 42's I would want more crawl ratio than you will get from a 231/5.13 or 5.38. I would shoot for 38s and 5.13s. until you get more motor and/or lower crawl ratio.

5.38's are a good bit weaker than 5.13's.
I think this is a good option until I get to the engine.

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Originally Posted by kwrangln View Post
Manual or auto tranny?

I ran 5.38's for years with 33" tires, then 35" tires behind the 2.5 with the stock manual transmission. 5.38's will put you at about stock gearing with 35's. If you plan on running 42's on the highway for 3-6 hours, it's time to rethink your plan. You can gear down for crawling and make it work, but it's going to be a dog on the pavement.
Manual. That is what I was afraid of. It is a dog now with 35's and 4.10's but I have made it work as my DD for the past 3 years. As Bryan said I might stick with 38's until I take care of the engine.

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Originally Posted by fcfred View Post
dana 70 has 14b like strength, and can go as low as 7.17.
This is another option I was looking at. Arenít parts more expensive? And I cannot find anywhere that tells me what years to go after.

Thanks for all the insight. If anyone else has any other experience or insight I am all ears.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:05 AM   #7 (permalink)
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If you haven't already done it, call up Tricounty Gear and get an inertia ring for your flywheel, it makes a huge difference and is cheap.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:35 AM   #8 (permalink)
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i run the 2.5l with a 14bolt rear with 4.56 gears and 42" iroks. i have a atlas 2 5:1 and i run the stock ax-5 (i know, i know, but i have 3 spares so it works just fine.)

on flat ground in 2 high i can drive on dirt roads. it starts out slow but i can build momentum. i can't get into second no matter how fast i go. i trailer and never have an issue since i stay in low gear and just to rocks and trails in new england.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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You might want to re-think your plan. If you plan on driving your 2.5 on the street, 42s with 5.38s will be even more miserable than your current 4.10/35s setup. I say you shoot for running 5.38s or lower, and 38s or smaller if you plan on keeping that 2.5L. The 2.5L is a great, reliable little engine, but you'll hate life with 40s or 42s driving it on the road.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I run a 2.5L/AX-5/D300 with 5:38s and 36s. It is ok for cruising around town, but sucks on the highway. The only way I can hit/hold 70 mph in 5th gear is by drafting a big rig. I can hit 65-70mph in 4th gear but it is screaming around 3500 rpm. If you have a head wind or any change in elevation, good luck even getting to 55 mph. I couldn't imagine trying to go 70 with 42s and I'm pretty sure my 2.5 would just quit. I think it would do ok around town with 5.38s and 42s, but there is no denying that the 2.5 is a dog. My 4:1 D300 is what saves me on the trail.

7.17s would probably do very well with the 2.5L and 42s, but you have guaranteed another gear change if you swap motors.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks for all of the advice everyone. Looks like I should go a different direction. Is common opinion that a d70 would be a better option for my particular situation? Any years or models to look out for in particular? I appreciate all of the assistance as my few buddies who do wheel have not gotten to this point yet so I really have no one to ask these questions to.

Time to do some research on a 70.

Thanks again.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
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what front axle? if your gonna go 7.17 in the rear youi gotta do the same up front. which means your only option is a HP60 if it's in a jeep with a 2.5/ax5/231.
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:46 AM   #13 (permalink)
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what front axle? if your gonna go 7.17 in the rear youi gotta do the same up front. which means your only option is a HP60 if it's in a jeep with a 2.5/ax5/231.
HP60 only goes up to 5.38.
The LP60 goes up to 7.17 and the LP44 has some crazy low gears in that range but those don't belong offroad with 42s.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:14 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Dude, this is an awsome upgrade. If you want to put the 14bolt in, then do it. The only issue you're going to have is the highway. I have a 4.0, stock auto and 231. It does awsome on fire roads/trails, but on the highway, with that three speed, it does about 60ish (2500-2700).

I run a 14bolt, 5.13 combo in the rear with 37's. I shaved it down a bit so it helped. When I started my build I asked the same questions, pretty much got the whole, " you're gonna get hung up, it's to big, you need bigger tires", but I haven't had any problems yet.

It all comes down to this:
14bot= cheap, unbreakable (w/ that motor), 1 time job
Dana 60= $$, upgraded 35 spline shafts, $$
8.8= cheap, weak, just gonna throw something bigger in later.

Do it right the first time. If you are able to get the axle then buy it, use it and call it the day. You aren't going to have the perfect set up for street and trail use, unless you have $$$$. I'm personally happy with my 14 bolt/5.13. Wouldn't change it, even if I'm only able to do 60-65 on the highway. It's a jeep!
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:15 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CreepinYJ View Post
Dude, this is an awsome upgrade. If you want to put the 14bolt in, then do it. The only issue you're going to have is the highway. I have a 4.0, stock auto and 231. It does awsome on fire roads/trails, but on the highway, with that three speed, it does about 60ish (2500-2700).

I run a 14bolt, 5.13 combo in the rear with 37's. I shaved it down a bit so it helped. When I started my build I asked the same questions, pretty much got the whole, " you're gonna get hung up, it's to big, you need bigger tires", but I haven't had any problems yet.

It all comes down to this:
14bot= cheap, unbreakable (w/ that motor), 1 time job
Dana 60= $$, upgraded 35 spline shafts, $$
8.8= cheap, weak, just gonna throw something bigger in later.

Do it right the first time. If you are able to get the axle then buy it, use it and call it the day. You aren't going to have the perfect set up for street and trail use, unless you have $$$$. I'm personally happy with my 14 bolt/5.13. Wouldn't change it, even if I'm only able to do 60-65 on the highway. It's a jeep!
Did you even take the time to read any responses above? No one said "don't do it" for the reason you stated. I'm even interested in the same swap. He asked what the lowest ratio for the 14 bolt was because he found mixed information from his searching, likely due to the time frame overlap when 5.13s were the lowest until the 5.38 was produced.

Most of the responses above were in reference to his requirements of the 14 bolt.
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I am always planning to keep this Jeep streetable and by that i mean Highways for 3-6 hour trips as well. Is the 5.13 or 5.38 low enough to run with 40-42" tires on the highway?
If he is set on running 42s on the hwy, he will need a lower R&P or a new motor (or not dream so big for the anemic 2.5L). That is why people are recommending the Dana 70 variety. Low Gears, 35 Spline, etc.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:36 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Forget all this. How do u plan on driving on 42s on the streets of PA and not getting pulled over every 10 miles? We call it the communistwealth of PA for a reason. It'll be a cop magnet.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:44 AM   #17 (permalink)
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oh my bad.. i actually should have known better than thta i just looked at all that the other day.. ok.. so i wonder what his plan for using a LP60 is? transfer case swap?

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Old 02-24-2012, 09:06 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Forget all this. How do u plan on driving on 42s on the streets of PA and not getting pulled over every 10 miles? We call it the communistwealth of PA for a reason. It'll be a cop magnet.
I live in MD and not PA. My buddy has a trailer to get to RC. I will figure out how to cover the wheels on the road so i can get to the beach and so on.

Again, thanks for all the input everyone. I am used to the jeep being a dog. I think i am going to continue with this plan and do the 14 rear 60 front and run 5.13 with 38's. Once I swap the engine down the road i will move up in tire size. I dont need to go 70 on the highway and would be happy with 55 as most highways around here are 55 anyway with a few 65's and in those cases i will just stay in the slow lane. Please let me know if this seems like a red flag to anyone.

Thanks again.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:17 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Please let me know if this seems like a red flag to anyone.

Thanks again.
Several people who have extensive experience running the 2.5 with larger tires have already told you that your plan is flawed. Continue on, learn for yourself, you've already discounted the experienced advice, so you're on your own.

5.13's are perfect...



















For 33" tires, they'll put you right back to a stock gear ratio.

Have fun.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:58 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I don't have a 2.5, but I have a 4.0 with a ax 15 np 231 combo, I have 5.38 gears in my 14 bolt 60 combo. I have 39.5 inch rockers and I could really use a 4 to 1 kit in my t case. However I have been wheeling it this way for a while and it is not too bad, I just have to slip the clutch a little more. So you asked about 5.38 gears in a 14 bolt and yes I have them, they came with the axle when I bought it, so I don't know where they came from, and they are plenty strong, the guy who had them before me beat on them in a full buggy and they are still holding up. Mine jeep only sees the trailer on the road so I did a homemade shave, and it is nice, I hit the front Low pinion dana 60 way more than the back 14 bolt. You can grind an inch off the 14 bolt without doing the shave, that is the way mine came, but I just did the shave anyway.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Why do you want to run such big tires anyway? Are you doing a big stretch and link job? Why not do what was stated above and run comparatively smaller tires and axles that would give the same ground clearance? It seems if you are sticking to small power you need to give up the highway idea or the giant tire/axle idea.
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:59 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Thanks everyone for the input. Clearly i am undecided and am not sure what direction I want to go. I am going to do a stretch and links (welding class starts this summer). I already have a 44 and want to run larger tires than my current 35's. I am not sure how long until I swap the engine so that is where the dilemma begins. Go with the 14 and suffer until the engine gets swapped of go with the more expensive 70 where there seems to be a lot less information out there for. I guess I just have a lot more research to do. i have only ever been on 4.10's so I really donít know what gears do to drivability other than the calculators you find online and that is not real feel. I want to go up to at least 38's until the engine swap. Thanks for all the input and I will leave this be until I get a lot more research done.

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Several people who have extensive experience running the 2.5 with larger tires have already told you that your plan is flawed. Continue on, learn for yourself, you've already discounted the experienced advice, so you're on your own.

5.13's are perfect...



















For 33" tires, they'll put you right back to a stock gear ratio.

Have fun.
kwrangln,

I appreciate your advice about the Tricounty Gear inertia ring and I have listed it in my notes as something to call them about. I have been running 35's with 4.10 for three years now 30 highway miles to work each day and many 3-6 hour trips. In my thought, going to 5.13 - 5.38 on 38's would be about similar to what I am experiencing now. Again, I know nothing about feel when it comes to gear changes. Also, this will no longer be my daily driver when the axles go in.

I would like to hear your recommendation (38's in mind). Should i go with the 70 and what ratio? If I were to drop below 5.38 what front should I go with since the HP 60 will be out of the questions then? Again, a engine swap is in my future and I know I will have some down time where my Jeep does not perform ideal until that time comes.

Again I appreciate everyoneís advice.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Before I even start, make it a point to borrow a set of stock tires to throw on your heep to drive around for the day. Seriously, see what it's like to have the power your lil engine can produce back for a little while. Then throw your 35's back on there and feel the difference. You'll be amazed.

With that out of the way, lets take a good hard look at what your goals are. Sound like you are set on a big tired heep on tons. Nothing wrong with that, but you'll be better off to do it all at once. Save up for it and do it. If you were going to use the jeep for a crawler only and it would just live in low range then you could better get away with the out of wack gearing, but since you repeatedly talk of using it on the road, why not get all the performance you can out of it? After all, what's the point of building if not to increase performance? To cut down on performance is going in the wrong direction.

Now, since you plan on keeping the 4 banger for a while, why not build for that drivetrain? Gear it right, build it light, and let that lil motor rev. My old 4 banger jeep could take off on the pavement in 1st high range without touching the gas, and then cruise comfortably at 70 all day long on 35's. With the tech from the board it's now easy to swap in an ax-15 tranny which will let you bolt up a crawl box and a dana 300, then move the engine forward 6" (cut the fan shroud and move mounts) and you can wont even have to lengthen shafts. A set of dana 44's or a 44 front and 9" rear, and you have a lightweight setup that is real capable.

Go watch a WEROCK comp up there ar RK, see what the stock mod guys can do on 35's, because they are built properly to do it. This is not a case where bigger is automatically better, build it properly and 35's can take you a lot of places that right now you aren't even close to going.

To sum it all up, you need to think of your build as a whole and not just parts. Big tires need big axles and big power. To handle that you need the transmission and transfer case to make it run. To pick your gearing for those big tires you need to know what gears are in your transmission and transfer case (your current 5 speed aint going to cut it and your 231 isn't going to be real happy either). If you are still set on building it big, then go ahead, but save up and do all the parts at once. If you want to keep the 4 banger, then plan accordingly so that you get the most performance, cater to the drivetrain so that it's happy.

Here's an old example of building a drivetrain for a 4 banger.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ighlight=build
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I wish I had gone 14 bolt instead of 70. Broke a35 spline shaft with the 2.5 and 40s 5.86 gears. Had enough power with dual cases, never felt lacking. The 14 is just a better diff
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:29 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.A.R.K View Post
Did you even take the time to read any responses above? No one said "don't do it" for the reason you stated. I'm even interested in the same swap. He asked what the lowest ratio for the 14 bolt was because he found mixed information from his searching, likely due to the time frame overlap when 5.13s were the lowest until the 5.38 was produced.

Most of the responses above were in reference to his requirements of the 14 bolt.

If he is set on running 42s on the hwy, he will need a lower R&P or a new motor (or not dream so big for the anemic 2.5L). That is why people are recommending the Dana 70 variety. Low Gears, 35 Spline, etc.
Oops, my bad. Didn't realize my opinion had anything to do with you. Didn't seem to bother him.
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