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Old 10-18-2005, 09:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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nth degree zig zag

has anyone seen this set up or have one in use? i have a friend looking to install it and he and i are picking it apart from what we can find on nth degrees site and from a few tidbits on the web. anyone have any input on this thing?

http://www.nthdegreemobility.com/zig-zag.htm

i think this might actually be the rig i saw it on






from their site
Quote:
Benefits

* Maximum possible travel. After a rear spring becomes totally unloaded, it can fall away (droop), at the ‘shackle’ end because there is no direct connection where shackle had been. The amount of separation is limited only by your shocks and springs. As an example the YJ pictured with SOA gained over 4.0” of down travel at the wheel (almost 8” of separation by the ZZ).
* Preserves Handling. The ZZ actually increases the side-to-side stiffness of your suspension for better handling: Since the spring ends are connected to each other and the frame by the Zig-Zag assembly, they cannot twist due to cornering loads on pavement like extended or articulating (double hinged) shackles allow. So your handling doesn’t turn to ‘mush’ just because you wanted more travel.
* Reduces spring fatigue. When separated, the ZZ allows the end of the spring to follow a large arc from the other side of the frame, just like the axle is doing. This reduces spring fatigue by lessening the twist in the main leaf.
* On-Road safety. Lock-out keys are easy to use. No tools or leveling the vehicle is required to disconnect or connect.



Features

* Lateral Stability. A link with rod ends (a.k.a. heim joints) holds the spring ends firmly in the lateral (side-to-side) direction, so the springs always come back to the right spot after separation.
* Direct Replacement. The ZZ replaces the stock shackles, but in most applications it keeps the OEM rubber spring/frame bushings (or whatever your springs came with) to preserve a smooth ride without harshness.
* Ground Clearance. The crossbar is packaged to tuck in as tightly behind the fuel tank/skid plate as possible. Depending on your rear bumper, the ZZ has little or no affect on your departure angle. The crossbar is made of .125” wall DOM tubing that can take the abuse of the occasional rock scrape.
* Works with stock or lift springs. The springs can be either over or under the axle. (see installation instructions for more info on compatibility)
* Ride Isolation. The contact surfaces (where the ZZ separates) are isolated with a layer of UHMW plastic to eliminate noise when the ZZ & spring returns to the frame.
* Bumper Friendly. The ZZ does not interfere with most rear bumpers because the link bracket mounts to the underside of the rear crossmember and does not use existing holes/bolts used by many aftermarket bumpers. (Some modification of the backside of some bumpers may be necessary to allow full motion of ZZ.)
http://www.4x4wire.com/news/nthdegree/zigzag/
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:20 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I remember something being said about the unsprung drop being an issue for some reason or another....
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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IMO it's just another gimmick to gain flex just like revolver shackles and z boxes. Not needed IMO. Just my opinion and we know what that’s worth.
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Old 10-18-2005, 11:35 PM   #4 (permalink)
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My question on that thing has always been from the physics side...

How in the world is "droop" from that thing any good when there is no reverse force or pressure being applied to the tire. Under load (i.e. when you need traction and thats what "droop" is for) that tire won't do any good because any rotation of the tire will not have any downward "force" or pressure exerted to it anyhow, thus making the whole application useless.

Am I wrong here or what?
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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In response to jeepguy and also from a physics side, what downward force would be exerted on the axle if the spring was secured to the frame by a standard shackle? A leaf sprung axle under full droop experiences some minor up force from the spring, and no down force from the spring, so i don't think that this system would take away from traction any as compared to a standard leaf spring.

Personally I don't like the idea of having my suspention droop so easily, i'll bet the rig wouldn't be as horizontally stable in off camber situations, but i've never seen one in action.

Last edited by BassPlaya799; 10-19-2005 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 10-19-2005, 05:17 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassPlaya799
In response to jeepguy and also from a physics side, what downward force would be exerted on the axle if the spring was secured to the frame by a standard shackle? A leaf sprung axle under full droop experiences some minor up force from the spring, and no down force from the spring, so i don't think that this system would take away from traction any as compared to a standard leaf spring.

Personally I don't like the idea of having my suspention droop so easily, i'll bet the rig wouldn't be as horizontally stable in off camber situations, but i've never seen one in action.
It wont take away any traction.. It just wont give any. The ideal set up is to have good droop but still have spring pressure on the axel so that it does flex and it has traction. If your tires only have the weight of the axel its self and the weight of the wheels and tires, it will more than likely not have good traction.

I think if the rig is going to only compete on an RTi ramp it might be a good setup. But if it is going to decend from any ledges, Im betting that it will be bent fast.

Just my .02

JOSH
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Old 10-19-2005, 07:13 AM   #7 (permalink)
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my theory on this is look how many people arnt running this setup, I have never seen one one the trail, but i remember reading an article in 4wheel drive awhile back about them. I agree with speedcravin about how it may score better on an rti ramp but have a negetive effect on the trail.....i wouldnt put it on..........
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Old 10-19-2005, 08:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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No thanks.

I see no real gain and lots of potential problems with this type of set up.
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Old 10-19-2005, 08:31 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassPlaya799
In response to jeepguy and also from a physics side, what downward force would be exerted on the axle if the spring was secured to the frame by a standard shackle? A leaf sprung axle under full droop experiences some minor up force from the spring, and no down force from the spring, so i don't think that this system would take away from traction any as compared to a standard leaf spring.
Actually, a spring does exert downforce and restricts upward motion when it is connected to a solid object such as the frame of the vehicle. (BTW, this is one of the reasons you want limiting straps, but only one minor reason). Thats the reason I question the system. Once you reach the maximum natural arc (or length) of the spring, the zig-zag unloads (opens), allowing the axle to theoretically droop lower. Unfortunately, there is no downward force driving the zig-zag, just gravity. And although you have some downward force being exerted by the force of gravity, it won't be enough (or much at all) to keep the tire contact enough to use it for traction aide. The force is just not there. With a spring connected to a solid point (the frame), the natural tension of the spring helps to keep some additional downward force applied to the wheel under load, i.e. when it tried to "grab" and drive forward.

And as another poster mentioned, imagine driving down a steep slope or a steep off-camber spot and having the rear end unload rapidly on a bump ... endo or roll city! This system is NOT for me!
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Old 10-19-2005, 09:12 AM   #10 (permalink)
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besides the uncontrolled drop issue there is a few others:

remember to "lock" it in place when on the street, unlock for the rock,lock for the decent,unlock for the ditch, lock for the.....you get the idea

The lateral stability of your entire rear suspention being held in place with a couple of hiems that are now a rock target at the very end of your vehicle and made of .125 wall tube
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Old 10-19-2005, 09:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I also don't see a shackle in any of the pictures. Is there one?
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Old 10-19-2005, 09:34 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Its not entirely true that you have no downward force on the mega-drooped tire. The spring on the other side of the vehicle is still supporting the rear portion of the vehicles weight.

Since the spring is not located directly above the stuffed tire, some of that force travels to the drooping tire. How much is dependant on several factors.

But...that does not mean you want uncontrolled poser-ramp-champ droop. That thing is just like revolvers, buggy springs, goober leafs, and all that other crap. Just a gimmick
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Old 10-19-2005, 09:36 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apeters89
I also don't see a shackle in any of the pictures. Is there one?

That blue bracket in the top pic has a flat surface on the bottom, covered in nylon or some other plastic. That is your shackle
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Old 10-19-2005, 11:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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oh, nice...
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Old 10-19-2005, 11:31 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I like a lot of nthdegree's stuff but this is not one of them. I realize most dont drive as hard as I do but imagine what would happen to the rear axel if you were to roll the jeep over. Im thinking that the (ONLY) mount point, "im going to call it the panhard bar" is not the strongest suspension mount I have seen.

to each its own.


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Old 10-20-2005, 08:33 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Show truck stuff. 1. Off camber would be bad with that setup. I think you would be much more likely to roll. 2. more stuff to break and fix, looks like it would get smacked on exit. 3. unless there is some way to 'lock it' in place, it would be a bitch on pavement, everytime you turn a corner you would flex way out. 4. what happens to it in a roll????
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Old 10-20-2005, 08:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEEPRZ
But...that does not mean you want uncontrolled poser-ramp-champ droop. That thing is just like revolvers, buggy springs, goober leafs, and all that other crap. Just a gimmick
your wrong on buggy springs (I assume you mean a 3/4 eliptical setup) That setup has controlable droop.
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Old 10-20-2005, 08:55 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Revolvers and the 9th are about the same......

1. One wheel goes up the pressure....The other goes DOWN with the SAME pressure.... So unless you center and both are springs are hanging you would have down pressure........... I would bet a stock type shackle would lift and leave you centered before either of the two drop shackles....

2. Limiting strap would be the key for both.

3. You can lock the 9th and side hilling could be hard BUT what about all the coil spring guy's and high as hell SOA... Oh Ya they side hill really well..NOT...

4. Hard braking...... Yes If you hit them hard they will unload...Ummm just like any flexy suspension........

5. They should only be run with SUA... That is what they were designed for...

6. Cheap flex($200) that might help some and hurt others???? I would take them over buggy spring set-up... and if you want them?? Make sure you know what and how they work….
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Old 10-20-2005, 05:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
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more stuff to break

spring under flex aid

I have tested the limits of buggy springs and I do not care for more moving parts. I also matured and my driving style demanded a properly setup spring over swap. I would never use this, but have to admit I did buggy springs and have negative things to say about them.
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Old 10-20-2005, 08:51 PM   #20 (permalink)
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OK. I have 4 corner shackle revolvers on my 7 and I like them very much. I have quite a lot of droop witrh them. The whole theres no weight on the tire for traction doesn't hold water. There is the same amount of weight on the tire thats drooping as a rig w/o revolvers. Think about it? The only thing pulling either set-up down is it's own weight. The only difference is the one with the revolvers can travel down farther. I know most people don't understand that, but it's the truth. Take 2 rigs one with revolvers and one w/o. Take them over the same obstacle where they will get a lot of droop. The rig w/o goes over and the spring flexes and the tire is abbout 4" from reaching the say rock. Ok, the rig with them does the same thing, but the revolver lets it touch the rock. No it doesn't have full weight on it cause it's all on the other side for both rigs. But that tire touching is still doing more work then that tire in the air. Is it not? And they don't unload on off camber spots. Thats all internet rumor spreading crap from people that haven't used them. The only complaint I got from people actually using them was bad axle wrap and wheel hop on SOA rigs. And most said an anti-wrap bar took care of both.

But the whole thing about no weight and traction is false. Cause both set-ups have the springs attached to fix points. ust think of the revolvers as a better drooping spring, cause thats all it is. And again, no matter if you have them or not, the tire drooping only has it's weight of the tire. spring and axle applying downforce period.
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Old 10-21-2005, 05:15 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Droop is overrated. Traction is the key. Save your money for a good locker and then it doesn't matter if that tire is slightly touching the ground due to fancy droop or hanging in mid air.

My TJ buddies with their slinky's occasionally like to poke fun at the non-flexy SUA YJ. In the end though, the non-flexy square headlights follow the fancy slinky's everywhere they go. Once you're locked front and rear you don't always have to have all four on the ground.

Sure those super flexed crossover shots look great, but tires hanging in midair always make for a great pic too.
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Old 10-21-2005, 10:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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What kink of rear steer does that thing create, and who wants to keep connecting and disconnecting that thing?
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Old 10-23-2005, 06:21 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertsport
What kink of rear steer does that thing create, and who wants to keep connecting and disconnecting that thing?
I might be missing it, how could you get any rear steer action from that?
looks captured enough I can't see that happing
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Old 10-23-2005, 06:45 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I dont think you will notice any rear steer ... Although with any suspension, when one side is at a large droop, that side of the axel is closer than the side that is higher or (stuffed).

Since we do not drive any distance that way we do not notice it. But imagine driving that way for 40 or 50 feet... it will cause a rear steer situation.

Its not just the Zig Zag, it works the same with any suspension..

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Old 10-23-2005, 10:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipslap
OK. I have 4 corner shackle revolvers on my 7 and I like them very much. I have quite a lot of droop witrh them. The whole theres no weight on the tire for traction doesn't hold water. There is the same amount of weight on the tire thats drooping as a rig w/o revolvers. Think about it? The only thing pulling either set-up down is it's own weight. The only difference is the one with the revolvers can travel down farther. I know most people don't understand that, but it's the truth. Take 2 rigs one with revolvers and one w/o. Take them over the same obstacle where they will get a lot of droop. The rig w/o goes over and the spring flexes and the tire is abbout 4" from reaching the say rock. Ok, the rig with them does the same thing, but the revolver lets it touch the rock. No it doesn't have full weight on it cause it's all on the other side for both rigs. But that tire touching is still doing more work then that tire in the air. Is it not? And they don't unload on off camber spots. Thats all internet rumor spreading crap from people that haven't used them. The only complaint I got from people actually using them was bad axle wrap and wheel hop on SOA rigs. And most said an anti-wrap bar took care of both.

But the whole thing about no weight and traction is false. Cause both set-ups have the springs attached to fix points. ust think of the revolvers as a better drooping spring, cause thats all it is. And again, no matter if you have them or not, the tire drooping only has it's weight of the tire. spring and axle applying downforce period.
Your one of the few that I have seen that likes them. I had all 4 on my YJ at one time and I hated them. They felt like shit on the road and drove the pucker factor way up on off camber stuff. I broke one front and one rear one within a year of buying them. The good part is Tera replaced them for free and I sold them to some tool on e-bay for almost what they cost me. Lesson learned.
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Last edited by rticul8_94yj; 10-23-2005 at 10:14 PM.
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