Body Roll Issues (pic)

[jonnyshark]

So need a little help here. Pictued below is the front of my 77' with 33x12.5. I just added heavy duty shackles and installed a steering box(arm to frame) brace and still have body roll. I guess that's what you call it. You know when you turn the wheel the body/frame moves and then the tires. Is it the shackles? The Bace between the Shackle was a little to big so I had to use washers to fill the gap. There was already a steering box brace installed.
Got any Ideas?

[Cheepin]

Bushing are worn or bolts are loose.This is a common problem with the shackle in front.You could add a tracbar.This will keep the axle from moving side to side.Hydroassist would help also.

[The Black Sheep]

Originally Posted by Cheepin

Bushing are worn or bolts are loose.This is a common problem with the shackle in front.You could add a tracbar.This will keep the axle from moving side to side.Hydroassist would help also.

Not sure if you looked at the pic or not, but MORE THEN LIKELY....his bolts and bushings are not the problem. Also his shackle front setup has absolutely dick to do with this problem. Hydro assist won't do shit for his problem either, infact thats so absurd if you think about it for more then a second. If he listens to your remedies he might as well just go into his bank account and take out a 500 bucks and just burn it. Shackle reversal, hydro assist.... /facepalm.

The problem hes describing happens to every jeep I've ever seen, especially CJs and most YJs setup for offroad. He turns the wheel a bit and before the wheels turn the frame/body shift a little before the tires start to turn. A little is normal. And the problem is easily fixed by a track bar and maybe a wider set of springs or some that aren't as tall. The last two would have a marginal effect compared to a track bar.

-Track bar
-Wider YJ springs help a little, less lift=less leverage in which for the steering to push the body over the axle.
-Sway bars help a little on road with the other type of body roll, but in this case I don't think thats the kind the OP is talking about.

[jonnyshark]

Right on Black Sheep! Nice. Just getting it going and havn't even been ten miles down the road yet.

Thanks,

Jonny

[BossBuilt]

Originally Posted by The Black Sheep

Not sure if you looked at the pic or not, but MORE THEN LIKELY....his bolts and bushings are not the problem. Also his shackle front setup has absolutely dick to do with this problem. Hydro assist won't do shit for his problem either, infact thats so absurd if you think about it for more then a second. If he listens to your remedies he might as well just go into his bank account and take out a 500 bucks and just burn it. Shackle reversal, hydro assist.... /facepalm.

The problem hes describing happens to every jeep I've ever seen, especially CJs and most YJs setup for offroad. He turns the wheel a bit and before the wheels turn the frame/body shift a little before the tires start to turn. A little is normal. And the problem is easily fixed by a track bar and maybe a wider set of springs or some that aren't as tall. The last two would have a marginal effect compared to a track bar.

-Track bar
-Wider YJ springs help a little, less lift=less leverage in which for the steering to push the body over the axle.
-Sway bars help a little on road with the other type of body roll, but in this case I don't think thats the kind the OP is talking about.

x2.....and well said.

[jonnyshark]

Anyone Know of a good Trac Bar setup for a 77' CJ5, DIY site. I would like to have the welded braket. Do you know of any good vendors for the Trac Bar?

[The Black Sheep]

Originally Posted by jonnyshark

Anyone Know of a good Trac Bar setup for a 77' CJ5, DIY site. I would like to have the welded braket. Do you know of any good vendors for the Trac Bar?

If you can weld you are better off making your own. Sadly I don't know of any vendors that make trac bars as pretty much everybody on this site, including myself have taken them off.

My question for you is, other then the frame and chassis shift, is there any reason you are putting a track bar on? Is this an offroad jeep? Because if it is you don't want the trackbar on it. And more then likely with that lift if you do find a kit it MUST have a tracbar relocation bracket otherwise it won't really be doing much.

When I took mine off my YJ I could tell there was a little difference but not much and definetly not enough to warrant putting it back on at the sacrifice of offroad capability.

[jonnyshark]

I just got back from a muddy ride and on the highway to the spot, no big deal. I guess I'll just leave it alone for now. Maybe just take the spacers out of he shackles.
Great Day on the Beach!

[4whlflop]

It looks like the bushings are worn to me. The upper bushing on the left looks as though it is worn and the shackle is leaning. Maybe it is the angle of the picture but I would check them out. Also your shackles are straight up and down, not the ideal angle. CJs never came with a track bar, although it would probably fix your problem, you would have to make one. I have never been in a CJ that hasn't had a little roll or slop in the steering, even with new parts.

[Cheepin]

Originally Posted by The Black Sheep

Not sure if you looked at the pic or not, but MORE THEN LIKELY....his bolts and bushings are not the problem.
Also his shackle front setup has absolutely dick to do with this problem. Hydro assist won't do shit for his problem either, infact thats so absurd if you think about it for more then a second. If he listens to your remedies he might as well just go into his bank account and take out a 500 bucks and just burn it. Shackle reversal, hydro assist.... /facepalm.

The problem hes describing happens to every jeep I've ever seen, especially CJs and most YJs setup for offroad. He turns the wheel a bit and before the wheels turn the frame/body shift a little before the tires start to turn. A little is normal. And the problem is easily fixed by a track bar and maybe a wider set of springs or some that aren't as tall. The last two would have a marginal effect compared to a track bar.

-Track bar
-Wider YJ springs help a little, less lift=less leverage in which for the steering to push the body over the axle.
-Sway bars help a little on road with the other type of body roll, but in this case I don't think thats the kind the OP is talking about.

Did YOU look at the pic?You can see the pass. side shackle is leaning.Bushing is either worn or the hanger is bent.
Shackle in front IS the problem.Has do with the steering being close to the shackles.The draglink forces the axle sideways before the tierod starts to move.It is a problem on all CJ's.Jeep added a tracbar to the YJ's for this reason.

Hydro assist WILL help.The ram will force the tierod to move turning the wheels instead of the draglink forcing the axle over.

I never told him to do a shackle reversal.I said ADD a TRACBAR.

I got my hydro assist for less then $200.

[jeepman1320]

Originally Posted by Cheepin

Did YOU look at the pic?You can see the pass. side shackle is leaning.Bushing is either worn or the hanger is bent.
Shackle in front IS the problem.Has do with the steering being close to the shackles.The draglink forces the axle sideways before the tierod starts to move.It is a problem on all CJ's.Jeep added a tracbar to the YJ's for this reason.

Hydro assist WILL help.The ram will force the tierod to move turning the wheels instead of the draglink forcing the axle over.

I never told him to do a shackle reversal.I said ADD a TRACBAR.

I got my hydro assist for less then $200.

Negative ghost rider. Hydro assist WILL help, but it WILL NOT fix the problem completely. Its a CJ man, get over it. That is not enough to even worry about. YJ's have a trac bar to help the problem. But all the YJ owners I know ditch the trac bar. Trac bars are shit for offroad use. EVERY CJ I have ever built/worked on/personally owned does that. It is not a big deal, nor does it hurt anything. You ARE wrong on the shackle being bent and/or bushings being worn out. I can clearly see that those are poly bushings and are probably fairly new...
Clay

[mud bros.1]

i would have someone keep an eye on the steering box while you turn the wheel left right a few time to make sure its mounted solid there should be zero movement between the box and frame.

sometimes the frame gets soft on the inside where the box is mounted and still looks good on the outside.

the brace works well to keep the box solid just above the pitman arm but could still have some movement upstairs by the mounting holes

[Cheepin]

Originally Posted by jeepman1320

Negative ghost rider. Hydro assist WILL help, but it WILL NOT fix the problem completely. Its a CJ man, get over it. That is not enough to even worry about. YJ's have a trac bar to help the problem. But all the YJ owners I know ditch the trac bar. Trac bars are shit for offroad use. EVERY CJ I have ever built/worked on/personally owned does that. It is not a big deal, nor does it hurt anything. You ARE wrong on the shackle being bent and/or bushings being worn out. I can clearly see that those are poly bushings and are probably fairly new...
Clay

Ok,We agree Hydro will HELP.I never said it would totally fix it.
Yes it is a CJ and that is a common problem.I am now on my 3rd CJ and also have a Jeepster.And is one thing that has annoyed me.To the point that I did a SR on my current build along with hydro assist.
I agree tracbars are shit WHEN not properly set up.When set up properly it will have minimal negative effect on travel.

It does hurt something.It hurts your ability to turn as tight as you should.On my last CJ-7 (SOA,YJ springs,4" shackles,fullwidth D44,stock bushings)the springs would move atleast 3-4" side to side.

I didn't say the shackle was bent.I said the bushing was either worn or the shackle HANGER was bent.It looks like it is leaning in the pic.Could be the pic.

[Cheepin]

Originally Posted by mud bros.1

i would have someone keep an eye on the steering box while you turn the wheel left right a few time to make sure its mounted solid there should be zero movement between the box and frame.

sometimes the frame gets soft on the inside where the box is mounted and still looks good on the outside.

the brace works well to keep the box solid just above the pitman arm but could still have some movement upstairs by the mounting holes

Didn't think about this,but you are right.I put a MORE steering bracket on my last CJ-7.After I broke the stock stamped POS.

[The Black Sheep]

Originally Posted by Cheepin

Did YOU look at the pic?You can see the pass. side shackle is leaning.Bushing is either worn or the hanger is bent.
Shackle in front IS the problem.Has do with the steering being close to the shackles.The draglink forces the axle sideways before the tierod starts to move.It is a problem on all CJ's.Jeep added a tracbar to the YJ's for this reason.

Hydro assist WILL help.The ram will force the tierod to move turning the wheels instead of the draglink forcing the axle over.

I never told him to do a shackle reversal.I said ADD a TRACBAR.

I got my hydro assist for less then $200.

First off every shackle setup leans a little. Its completely normal and the fawking things came from the factory that way, even with poly bushings. Id like to see a pic of your rig that doesn't have shackles that lean.

Secondly, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about in terms of shackle front. You are just a mis-information parrot. You read something from someone on the internet and couldn't discern wether it was bullshit or not and you keep repeating it and spreading more mis-information. All the forces on that axle and frame are still being transfered to the center axis of the ball joints which are located at....*drum roll please*....the center of the leaf springs. It doesn't mean jack shit if its shackle foward or reversed because the axle is in the same place in the springs and one side still has a shackle attached to it. Funny though I agree Jeep did attach a track bar to limit the chassis/body shit, but I rest my case when I say they didn't change the shackle foward design now did they, so obviously it had nothing to do with the shackle foward design? I suppose next you will be saying that you are smarter then the team of engineers that Jeep had working on and designing the CJ/YJ/TJs? Again I'd be interested in seeing your rig since I'm guessing you must have single handedly conquered this problem thats not even a problem by yourself?

And last but not least Hydro Assist won't do shit to aleviate his problem. Hydro Assist is attached to the axle and the tie-rod, both of which are not attached to his frame and are influenced by the drag link which is causing the body/chassis shift to begin with. I would even go so far to say that stronger steering would probably make his problem the same if not slightly worse. The only benefits hydro assist have other then steering is basically acting like a steering damper and limit bumpsteer. It doesn't do anything to take out the sloppy feeling caused by the body shifting over the axles.

Once again you are wrong.

Originally Posted by Cheepin

Ok,We agree Hydro will HELP.I never said it would totally fix it.
Yes it is a CJ and that is a common problem.I am now on my 3rd CJ and also have a Jeepster.And is one thing that has annoyed me.To the point that I did a SR on my current build along with hydro assist.
I agree tracbars are shit WHEN not properly set up.When set up properly it will have minimal negative effect on travel.

It does hurt something.It hurts your ability to turn as tight as you should.On my last CJ-7 (SOA,YJ springs,4" shackles,fullwidth D44,stock bushings)the springs would move atleast 3-4" side to side.

I didn't say the shackle was bent.I said the bushing was either worn or the shackle HANGER was bent.It looks like it is leaning in the pic.Could be the pic.

I don't even know where to begin... Trackbars not limiting travel, body shift limiting turning radius as opposed to the narrow ass sub-58" WMS. I'm not even gonna touch the 4" lift springs SOA.

I must be the exception to the case with my YJ through all its stages of builds didn't have more then an inch or two of body shift, and its turning radius was comparible to my stock TJ, even with the 37" meats.

[jeepman1320]

Originally Posted by The Black Sheep

[COLOR="Red"]
I don't even know where to begin... Trackbars not limiting travel, body shift limiting turning radius as opposed to the narrow ass sub-58" WMS. I'm not even gonna touch the 4" lift springs SOA.

I must be the exception to the case with my YJ through all its stages of builds didn't have more then an inch or two of body shift, and its turning radius was comparible to my stock TJ, even with the 37" meats.

Originally Posted by Cheepin

Ok,We agree Hydro will HELP.I never said it would totally fix it.
Yes it is a CJ and that is a common problem.I am now on my 3rd CJ and also have a Jeepster.And is one thing that has annoyed me.To the point that I did a SR on my current build along with hydro assist.
I agree tracbars are shit WHEN not properly set up.When set up properly it will have minimal negative effect on travel.

It does hurt something.It hurts your ability to turn as tight as you should.On my last CJ-7 (SOA,YJ springs,4" shackles,fullwidth D44,stock bushings)the springs would move atleast 3-4" side to side.

I didn't say the shackle was bent.I said the bushing was either worn or the shackle HANGER was bent.It looks like it is leaning in the pic.Could be the pic.

I agree with Black Sheep. the shifting has never hindered my ability to turn. The most shift I have ever had is 2" with shackle forward. But then again I dont run 7-8" long lift shackles. The longer the shackles the worse the frame shift will be. Glad you are on your 3rd... I am at 26 CJ's on my insurance policy during my lifetime, so I kinda know a thing or two about them. And even a properly setup trac bar will hinder flex on a leaf sprung vehicle.

If you have 4" of sideways flex, then something is probably worn out. I bet SOA on f'in 4" springs had something to do with that... even with 4" long shackles.

[Daddy_O]

Originally Posted by Cheepin

Did YOU look at the pic?You can see the pass. side shackle is leaning.Bushing is either worn or the hanger is bent.
Shackle in front IS the problem.Has do with the steering being close to the shackles.The draglink forces the axle sideways before the tierod starts to move.It is a problem on all CJ's.Jeep added a tracbar to the YJ's for this reason.

Hydro assist WILL help.The ram will force the tierod to move turning the wheels instead of the draglink forcing the axle over.

I never told him to do a shackle reversal.I said ADD a TRACBAR.

I got my hydro assist for less then $200.

Look at the lean on the shackles and the flex in the springs. The spring alignment is whacked. Also, you don't have the sway bar installed. It's gonna roll like mad.

I had the same setup. Had the same problem. Pick up new bolts and bushings. Put frame on jack stands on level ground allowing the axle to hang. Replace all bushings and bolts and lube properly. Make sure the bolt holes aren't worn out. Loosen U-bolts, shackles and spring mount in rear. Align all of these parts using a plumb bob hanging in the middle for reference. Torque it all back down. Do not over tighten shackle bolts or spring mount bolts. This will get it as good as you are gonna get it. Also, check to see if the sway bar is parallel. If not, install longer link rods.

If this doesn't fix it, you have a bad spring.

Track bars on leafs are not necesary if you get the springs right.

[jonnyshark]

[QUOTE=Daddy_O;10996507]Look at the lean on the shackles and the flex in the springs. The spring alignment is whacked. Also, you don't have the sway bar installed. It's gonna roll like mad.

I had the same setup. Had the same problem. Pick up new bolts and bushings.

OK it has almost new poly bushing all the way around. New Leaf Springs they even have the stock # sticker on one of them. New bolts? They are brand new HD Shackles with New Bolts.

What about the Frame??? It has a HD Steering Brace on the Box and I added a Brace to the Steering box from the frame. From what I understand a Trac Bar might just get in the way. Should I maybe add another cross member type brace ? Somewhat box the frame?

[sfisher]

It's a Narrow Trak CJ-5 with a lift. That's what it does.

[jeepman1320]

Trac bars are worthless on any leaf sprung vehicle that will ever see dirt. Dont bother. Another brace to the steering box is pointless, the box is not the problem. I do not know why you are so intent on "fixin" something that ALL leaf sprung vehicles do. Your shackle angles are horrible, so if you are going to nit pick a slight lean, then you need to relocate the shackle hanger in order to correct the 90* shackle angle (should be closer to 45*). You can also ditch the stamped steel steering box brackets and get something that is actually worth a damn. Like I have said, and Blacksheep has said, this is a normal occurance. Fix something that NEEDS fixin, and dont waste you money or time trying to "fix" a small bit of frame shift, because that is normal.
Clay

[oldjeep]

The shifting always seems worse sitting in the garage. When moving you don't get the same resistance as you do sitting in one place. My CJ's always did it, even with brand new poly bushings.

[jonnyshark]

Great enough said.
Thanks to all who chimed in with the good advise.

[crashnzuk]

I presume those bushings have sleeves in them, yes? If not, they should have. If so, make the center bolt spacer in the shackles the same length as the bushing sleeves. This will make the shackle plates push on the sides of the bushing a bit and keep the slop to a minimum. Be sure the bolts are tightened against the sleeves, no slop.
Travis..

[RGRHASH]

Im going to chime in(But I could be way off so hold your guns men and dont shoot the messenger)..Ive never owed a Cj , but arent the springs something like 2" wide?...If you converted to HD shackles are they the YJ ones? I think a YJ has wider springs(2.5"?)?...This in itself could be your problem.... My YJ was Shackle reversed and when I parked it the shackles were both pointing different ways all the time, I didnt have any trac bars (just springs F and R) it still drove fine( I drove it completely across the country w/ a 4cyl and 33's and a 3.5 lift and it took an eternity) ...

[pharmd]

I drive SOA yj springs on 1 ton axles with high steer arms. Shackle front. Poly bushings. I have no trac bar or sway bar. I move a little bit but not much.