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Old 11-02-2010, 09:28 AM   #26 (permalink)
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The initial OP question was how they worked and whether or not they would work well in the rocks?

If am understanding how they work correctly, then speed of the ring gear doesn't have any effect on the operation of a Detroit, except if its not moving? In other words, as long as the R&P are rotating, when one wheel tries to turn slower, the Detroit makes it go the same speed?


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Old 11-02-2010, 10:28 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Ok, so I didn't want to read all of the tangents, but a Detroit will be fine on the rocks. The locker only unlocks when one tire goes backwards, which happens to the inside tire during a turn. The only way I can see it being a problem on the rocks is if you rock backwards and the locker unlocks during the backward motion; however, as soon as you get moving forward again it locks up fine.

They are fine for the back, but I would recommend an ARB or OX for the front since steering is involved.
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Old 11-02-2010, 10:40 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Ok, so I didn't want to read all of the tangents, but a Detroit will be fine on the rocks. The locker only unlocks when one tire goes backwards, which happens to the inside tire during a turn. The only way I can see it being a problem on the rocks is if you rock backwards and the locker unlocks during the backward motion; however, as soon as you get moving forward again it locks up fine.

They are fine for the back, but I would recommend an ARB or OX for the front since steering is involved.
you may want to edit or delete this for accuracy. see my post above. Neither the inside nor the outside tire will ever spin slower than the ring gear.
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Old 11-02-2010, 10:46 AM   #29 (permalink)
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yes detroits work fine for rock crawling /thread
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Old 11-02-2010, 10:54 AM   #30 (permalink)
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You need to go run that statement by your local gear guy who sets up both for offroaders. Go run it in Gen 4x4 as well, it won't fly there either.

The backlash is from the Detroit, not the axle. ARB's don't have backlash when they are locked.
I guess we disagree
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Old 11-02-2010, 11:01 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I guess we disagree
here we go again...
blaine knows his shit and will swear by arbs, i swear by my detroit and im assuming your a fan of detroit, look up the last ford 8.8 locker thread and spare the pissing match
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Old 11-02-2010, 12:13 PM   #32 (permalink)
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They are fine for the back, but I would recommend an ARB or OX for the front since steering is involved.
I have detroit detroit now.

I am going to put a ARB in the back so I have BETTER steering control...

When in trees etc I cant make tight turns at times.

I thought it was because of the front being locked but a guy smarter than me told me to try unlocking the front and then the rear and see which it is.

As it turns out by going to fwd only I can turn flawlessly any time any where....

So its the REAR being locked and not turning and thus having more traction than the front your asking to turn that causes the front end to be hard to turn in tight situations.


SO the ARB would be best served in the REAR.
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Old 11-02-2010, 12:41 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I guess we disagree
You would be wrong FYI.
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:22 PM   #34 (permalink)
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what prize are you trying to win by being right or wrong?
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:21 PM   #35 (permalink)
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what prize are you trying to win by being right or wrong?
this forum is the biggest bank of 4x4 knowledge on the interwebs. If people post up info that is not correct, it is better to correct them so the correct knowledge spreads...
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:37 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I don't understand why people say a detroit "locks up".

Detroits are ALWAYS locked unless ONE wheel wants to spin faster than the ring gear - i.e. when you turn right, the axle will pull with the inside (passenger) wheel and the outside (driver) wheel will ratchet faster than the ring gear.

Since it is easier for the axle to pull from the outside tire than the inside tire, when you give it gas in a turn it will pull from the outside. In this instance, both tires and the ring gear are rotating at the same speed. The detroit never "locks up", it just does not let either axle ever rotate slower than the ring gear.
Your saying it NEVER locks up, then your saying its always locked unless one axle is going faster.... I think you might be confused yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If one is going faster that would not be locked up as in locked equal like a spool....


Simple common sense explanation.

The locking of the detroit is what happens when the outside tire gets back down to the same speed as the inside tire... It locks back up and you feel it.... as it is like having a brake on the outside tire that was going faster lock for a instant, it is not smooth like a limited slip or gold trac.

Ive ran detroit and gold trac and spools over the years in my race cars.



More specific and technical explanation.

When coasting around a corner, the outside wheel is driven faster by the surface of the road. The center cam (inside the spider gear) locks into position and acts as a ramp to disengage the right driven-clutch teeth from the spider gear. This allows the right axle to rotate faster around the corner. Once the driven-clutch rotation equalizes and both wheels are traveling at the same speed, the exterior springs force the teeth to (lock)mesh again.



Like ya said we should keep the info correct!!
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:06 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I guess we disagree
You're welcome to disagree and you can continue to do so until you're around enough blown up detroits to figure out, I was in fact, correct.

I've seen the backlash from the Detroit when an axle breaks, spin the locker hard enough the other direction to twist the splines forward on the unbroken side.

That axle break caused a locker to blow up, both axles needed to be replaced and it took out the ring gear.

On the other side of the aisle, I've watched and been on the trail with several broken axles in Ox lockers, ARB's, and the factory Rubi lockers. None of those lockers blew up internally with broken axles, u-joints, or multiples of breaks.

We have blown up a few of them when the hardened axles break at the splines inside the locker and take out the bearing journals.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:08 PM   #38 (permalink)
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what prize are you trying to win by being right or wrong?
Really? Idiot, there's no prize. There is the need and desire to have others get information that is correct and appropriate. If you don't want information that is correct and appropriate, maybe you should seek your education elsewhere.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:13 PM   #39 (permalink)
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here we go again...
blaine knows his shit and will swear by arbs, i swear by my detroit and im assuming your a fan of detroit, look up the last ford 8.8 locker thread and spare the pissing match
No, I swear by ARB's for my own personal use. I'm well aware of their upsides and downsides and am more than pleased to deal with either.

I don't care if you run Detroits, just understand what they are and don't put them on a pedestal for the rest of the world to bow down to.

If I was in a bind tomorrow and could not get an ARB for my front axle, I'd have no issues tossing in a Detroit.

They are a good, solid, tough, dependable locker for the right set of circumstances.

They are not an end all be all solution to everyone's locker needs.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:14 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Your saying it NEVER locks up, then your saying its always locked unless one axle is going faster.... I think you might be confused yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If one is going faster that would not be locked up as in locked equal like a spool....


Simple common sense explanation.

The locking of the detroit is what happens when the outside tire gets back down to the same speed as the inside tire... It locks back up and you feel it.... as it is like having a brake on the outside tire that was going faster lock for a instant, it is not smooth like a limited slip or gold trac.

Ive ran detroit and gold trac and spools over the years in my race cars.



More specific and technical explanation.

When coasting around a corner, the outside wheel is driven faster by the surface of the road. The center cam (inside the spider gear) locks into position and acts as a ramp to disengage the right driven-clutch teeth from the spider gear. This allows the right axle to rotate faster around the corner. Once the driven-clutch rotation equalizes and both wheels are traveling at the same speed, the exterior springs force the teeth to (lock)mesh again.



Like ya said we should keep the info correct!!
How about if we say that if you apply torque, both rear axles will turn and call it even?
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:32 PM   #41 (permalink)
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yes detroits work fine for rock crawling /thread
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Old 11-03-2010, 08:48 AM   #42 (permalink)
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you may want to edit or delete this for accuracy. see my post above. Neither the inside nor the outside tire will ever spin slower than the ring gear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaton...Manufacturer of the Detroit locker
When the vehicle turns a corner, or when one wheel
passes over an obstruction, the outside wheel, or the
wheel passing over the obstruction, must travel a
greater distance and therefore faster than the other
wheel. When this occurs, the NoSPIN differential
automatically allows for the necessary difference in
wheel speed.
It is actually the outside tire the disengages. My bad, I stand corrected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by faziom
I have detroit detroit now.

I am going to put a ARB in the back so I have BETTER steering control...

When in trees etc I cant make tight turns at times.

I thought it was because of the front being locked but a guy smarter than me told me to try unlocking the front and then the rear and see which it is.

As it turns out by going to fwd only I can turn flawlessly any time any where....

So its the REAR being locked and not turning and thus having more traction than the front your asking to turn that causes the front end to be hard to turn in tight situations.


SO the ARB would be best served in the REAR.
When I have my front axle engaged with a full time locker, I cannot steer worth a damn. When I disengage the passenger side (Wrangler D30 with CAD) my steering is MUCH better. Not as good as RWD only, but a marked improvement. Regardless, I hope to see soon as I am trying to spring for an ARB in the rear of my next axle build.

Last edited by docneon; 11-03-2010 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 11-03-2010, 02:00 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The detroit is locked when you are on the gas and loading the differential. Pretty much a spool, keeping wheels from spinning slower at that point and it takes a hell of a lot of force to get it to "ratchet" when in a bind and on the throttle. When on the throttle, a tire can over-speed to compensate for the rolling distance needed but in wheeling conditions especially, the opportunities for a tire to compensate by over-speeding are few and far between. Because of this, you are often dealing with the tires needing to overspeed to equalize the stresses, but not having the ability to do so due to the ground surface/shape and/or the opposite axle's tires causing resistance. This means you have backlash building inside the differential and it is NOT a small amount. We're talking 25 degrees or more of rotational backlash, which if quickly distributed by a breaking axle (or a suddenly loose traction situation for a single "loaded" tire) causes some pretty high stresses on the locker.

The ARB works totally different and without backlash, so this issue is a totally different scenario and is why you read and hear so many stories of Detroits letting go when an axle snaps.

HOWEVER, that does not mean the Detroit is useless and weak. In fact, they are a great solution for many people and we actually prefer them in the front end of our racers and trailrigs. In both of those situations, we use ARB's in the back and Detroits in the front. In an extreme racer, I would "consider" a spool, but seeing as we use strong accompanying components, we have faith that our Detroits will hold up and so far, still prefer them. In our rockcrawling comp buggy, it's ARB's front and rear as we do want skid-steer, something 99% of people would never use to their advantage, so even there, to most people I recommend Detroit front and ARB rear.

Regarding the arguments above, the Detroits have a long and well documented history of breakage when an axle snaps. There is no denying that and the reason is what I stated at the beginning of this very post. Would that scare me away from a Detroit? No. Would I prefer they didn't have this issue? Sure, but then again, they wouldn't work as well as they do if you took out that backlash...so, like the clutch collar on the RD99 that I consider a workable issue, the backlash in a Detroit is much the same.

DocNeon...the rear locker has more of an effect on your turning radius than the front locker. I have been telling people this for damn near a decade now and it's FINALLY catching on. You'd be making the right move putting an ARB in the back. In the front, it does not make that much of a difference in turning radius...truly, the difference is negligible. In fact, more often than you think, a front locker engaged can make your turning radius TIGHTER due to both wheels pulling you in the direction those tires are facing. All trails and courses we drive, we have the fronts locked and the rears unlocked. When we see we need the rear locked for a steep climb or descent where we want equal traction, we lock the rear.

Last edited by RedBullJeep; 11-03-2010 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 11-03-2010, 02:27 PM   #44 (permalink)
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The detroit is locked when you are on the gas and there is resistance on the tires. Pretty much a spool at that point and it takes a hell of a lot of force to get it to "ratchet" when in a bind and on the throttle. When on the throttle, a tire can over-speed to compensate for the rolling distance needed but in wheeling conditions especially, the opportunities for a tire to compensate by over-speeding are few and far between. Because of this, you are often dealing with the tires needing to overspeed to equalize the stresses, but not having the ability to do so due to the ground surface/shape and/or the opposite axle's tires causing resistance. This means you have backlash building inside the differential and it is NOT a small amount. We're talking 25 degrees or more of rotational backlash, which if quickly distributed by a breaking axle or a suddenly loose traction situation for a single "loaded" tire, causes some pretty high stresses on the locker.

The ARB works totally different and without backlash, so this issue is a totally different scenario and is why you read and hear so many stories of Detroits letting go when an axle snaps.

HOWEVER, that does not mean the Detroit is useless and weak. In fact, they are a great solution for many people and we actually prefer them in the front end of our racers and trailrigs. In both of those situations, we use ARB's in the back and Detroits in the front. In an extreme racer, I would "consider" a spool, but seeing as we use strong accompanying components, we have faith that our Detroits will hold up and so far, still prefer them. In our rockcrawling comp buggy, it's ARB's front and rear as we do want skid-steer, something 99% of people would never use to their advantage, so even there, to most people I recommend Detroit front and ARB rear.

Regarding the arguments above, the Detroits have a long and well documented history of breakage when an axle snaps. There is no denying that and the reason is what I stated at the beginning of this very post. Would that scare me away from a Detroit? No. Would I prefer they didn't have this issue? Sure, but then again, they wouldn't work as well as they do if you took out that backlash...so, like the clutch collar on the RD99 that I consider a workable issue, the backlash in a Detroit is much the same.

DocNeon...the rear locker has more of an effect on your turning radius than the front locker. I have been telling people this for damn near a decade now and it's FINALLY catching on. You'd be making the right move putting an ARB in the back. In the front, it does not make that much of a difference in turning radius...truly, the difference is negligible. In fact, more often than you think, a front locker engaged can make your turning radius TIGHTER due to both wheels pulling you in the direction those tires are facing. All trails and courses we drive, we have the fronts locked and the rears unlocked. When we see we need the rear locked for a steep climb or descent where we want equal traction, we lock the rear.
So what do you win for being right?
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Old 11-03-2010, 02:35 PM   #45 (permalink)
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So what do you win for being right?
I win a group of people that better understand the mechanics of the locker and the hows and why's of its performance, versus the brand preferences of someone reading from a marketing brochure or hearing how much their friend loves it.

Knowledge is power. Using and sharing that knowledge keeps me from being trapped on a trail by some trail tampon that's broke down because he had an opinion versus facts. WIN/WIN
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Old 11-03-2010, 02:48 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I have noted that with Detroits F&R that my Jeep pushes quite a bit through the corners. Have some handling issues on the road when its slick.

On the other hand, Detroits haven't limited me in being able to wheel quite of what Moab has to offer among other places, having wheeled several of the 8-9 rated trails on 35" tires. Zero reliability issues, even with broken axles and joints. But I am not a pedal down, cowboy kinda wheeler either.

I am recreational wheeler, while educated, my background knowledge base is medical/ biochemistry related. Anyways, I appreciate the discussion.

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Old 11-03-2010, 04:28 PM   #47 (permalink)
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When I have my front axle engaged with a full time locker, I cannot steer worth a damn. When I disengage the passenger side (Wrangler D30 with CAD) my steering is MUCH better. Not as good as RWD only, but a marked improvement. Regardless, I hope to see soon as I am trying to spring for an ARB in the rear of my next axle build.

When you say you cant steer worth a damn, there are two completely different not steer worth a damn's.

Do you mean your front end PUSHES which means it goes fwd instead of the direction youve turned your wheels?

Or do you mean you cant turn the wheel because your steering set up is not good enough for the size of your tires or your terrain?

I have a psc pump and psc ram to assist my steering it turns EASILY all the time, I can wheel rocks the size of my tires with a pepsi in hand. Now on loose dirt with leaves etc in the trees my front end will PUSH instead of making a tight turn unless I unlock my rear wheel drive.

I have twin sticks so I can unlock the rear. If you do you can test this easily..
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:30 PM   #48 (permalink)
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So what do you win for being right?
He gets a thanks for backing up the factual information I posted. Its not personal whos right or wrong its just plain silly how so many guys on here act. With less of that b.s this would be a lot better forum to visit and offer up information. I refrain from posting information because its not worth the hassle most of the time.
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:34 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I AM NOT saying that I have come out of this thread with a negative outlook on detroits or mechanical lockers.

I AM saying that I know my personal preference and I am going to either spring for selectable lockers front and rear. Or start with a front selectable and wait on the rear, seeing as how I might end up with a D60 in the rear enstead of my 44.

Thanks for the info guys.
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:53 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I AM NOT saying that I have come out of this thread with a negative outlook on detroits or mechanical lockers.

I AM saying that I know my personal preference and I am going to either spring for selectable lockers front and rear. Or start with a front selectable and wait on the rear, seeing as how I might end up with a D60 in the rear enstead of my 44.

Thanks for the info guys.
I think the best would be arb front and rear. It just takes $$$!!!
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