Looking for Frame Builds on Intermediate CJ5's (71-75)

[NCGamedog]

I'm getting ready to start a rebuild of my 75' CJ-5. The plan is to build a simple frame, run waggy or Holbrook springs SUA, with Toyota mini axles. My Jeep currently has a close ratio T-18/D20 combo and CJ widetrack axles with old 2.5" lift springs. Also working on piecing together a saginaw PS setup.

The frame doesnt look too bad, but some of the body mounts are toast and I've been reading to many horror stories of the frames cracking and such.

I would like to be able to built a simple 2x4 frame with the front and rear sections stacked on top of the center section, like I have seen on here many times. Most of the frames I have seen like this have been for flattys, and many of them are incorporating major stretch and/or links ect. I want to keep mine close to stock wheelbase with only a couple inches of stretch front and back. I'll pretty much accomplish this with spring length and placement.

I am looking for guys who may have done something similar as I'm concerned about the body alignment after losing the step-down section at the very front and rear of the stock frame.

Thanks for any input, links, or pics anyone may provide

[mjs408]

PM me your email, I have a DWG file that shows a homebuilt CJ5 frame. Almost positive it for the 71-75, if not you could mod it to work.

[Mieser]

My flat fender frame is pretty close to stock. I only stretched it a few inches front and back. The 2x4 box tubing worked out REALLY well stacked on itself. If I was going to do another one I could really consider using 5" tall tubing for the belly section and 4" tall tubing for the ends. This would allow a little more room for the transmission and transfer case.

The 'bends' in the frame worked out REALLY well with the grill position, inner fenders, and rear frame section. The most pain the rear part for me was finding the rear bumper/crossmember position.

Most jeep tubs will just sit on the 'belly' section of the tub and let you build in the body mounts and such...

Is your frame splayed front to rear? If its straight rails it should be pretty easy really.

[NCGamedog]

Straight rails...Yeah I dont think it will be too bad

[1946CJ2]

my build was for a flatty, but I put picks on how I built it.

[CJ2ota]

Fawk yeah build that frame! Come on streeeeaaaach it! You won't regret it!

I agree with Mieser body should just sit on the center flat part of the box tube frame and it should be easy to build body mounts up from there. Also if I had it to do over I would build the frame to the the toyota mini front axle spring width. If you clock your t-case flat you will be really happy that you have the extra width inside the frame to fit exhaust etc. When you do this you will have to move the body mounts out on the hat channel of the cj5 tub but that should be easy. Mine dosen't have any of the body mounts in the original location any more but that's mostly because now there are more body mounts and they are all burly multiple bolt body mounts that sandwich the feet of the roll cage, the body, and the frame side of the mount.

Also I know you are interested in more of a stock build and it probably wont be a problem with spring under but... you may want to raise the bottom of your front and rear frame rail sections to more like 6"-8" above the bottom of you center rails so you have more room for uptravel. Of course this could give you alot of other problems but I like the idea of building a jeep to a drive train and suspension first and the body later.

Just some food for thought. Good luck!

[wilez5150]

last year i built a 59 cj5(80") with rear izuzu rodeo/trooper springs. off set center pins reversed gave a 87 1/2" wb. cost $75.00 for the springs at pick a part. their a 2 1/4" spring and very easy to work with. rode nice, flexed nice, made a nice easy trail cruzer with a pinto 2.0 t-90 d18. it also was a 2 1/2" lift over stock. had to do some slice an dice to the wheel wells in the back because i got 5" out of that end alone. on a short wheel base any way you can strech it out with out comp cutting the rear or extendind the front is a good thing. this one also has a custom 17gl rear fuel tank. here also is 2 out of the normal box power steering set ups. one is early toyota 2 wheel drive pick up the other is 70's scout

[NCGamedog]

I would build the frame to the the toyota mini front axle spring width. If you clock your t-case flat you will be really happy that you have the extra width inside the frame to fit exhaust etc. When you do this you will have to move the body mounts out on the hat channel of the cj5 tub but that should be easy

I I had thought about making the frame toyota width, but wasn't sure how the body mounts would work out. I was thinking I'd have to weld nuts into the frame to bolt the body to, but I hadn't considered just redrilling the body. Would I need to weld in additional support to the hat channels? I guess it might sacrifice a little flex by moving the springs out, but it would gain stability.

[NCGamedog]

Originally Posted by wilez5150

last year i built a 59 cj5(80") with rear izuzu rodeo/trooper springs. off set center pins reversed gave a 87 1/2" wb. cost $75.00 for the springs at pick a part. their a 2 1/4" spring and very easy to work with. rode nice, flexed nice, made a nice easy trail cruzer with a pinto 2.0 t-90 d18. it also was a 2 1/2" lift over stock. had to do some slice an dice to the wheel wells in the back because i got 5" out of that end alone. on a short wheel base any way you can strech it out with out comp cutting the rear or extendind the front is a good thing. this one also has a custom 17gl rear fuel tank. here also is 2 out of the normal box power steering set ups. one is early toyota 2 wheel drive pick up the other is 70's scout

My buddy is running trooper springs in the back of his YJ spring under tons and 42's. I had considered running them too, just gotta figure out what to do with the gas tank. I will not put a fuel cell in the bed. I like the idea though, might run them in front and do the waggys out back. I like the toyota steering box idea, any idea what year? Do you get any drag link to frame interference under compression??

Do you have an wide shot or full profile pic of the green jeep? I'd like to see the whole thing to get a better idea on the stance

[MrWillys]

First, some clarification is needed here:
Jeeps had a 81" wheelbase until 71 when AMC bought out Kaiser. In 72 the newly revised CJ came with a 83.5" wheelbase and the frontclip was 5" longer to accomodate the 258, and 304.
So, the title should be 72 to 75. Also, all CJ's had straight frame's until AMC's next revision in 76 when the frame, windshield, steering wheel, tub, and on and on!
Not meant to be a flame job, but simple clarification.
You're on the right track in your thinking though. Many frame builds shown here. I personally chose Matkins mandrel bent rails in a frame kit and built it myself. You can view my build at http://www.scotthansen.net/jeep

[wilez5150]

sadly its at home 2500 miles away an those are the only 2 i have. it was easy to do and there is a 17gal tank under there i built from scratch. custom tanks are simple to make. 3 bends one way 3 bends the other to make a box couple baffles an weld. pressure check and weld till it stops blowin bubbles. nearly all steel yards do bend and shear to size for a small fee. i buy full 3/16th plate and drag it back to the steel yard several times getting stuff hacked off and bent up for different rigs
most of my personal stuff is 80" flatties or at least started that way. it was just a general coment. the 42 junk yard dawg in this section is an example of my junk, nothing simple or stock. take 1 part pile of crap 1 part old fat retired guy add lots of beer and tequlia shake well and see what comes out

[NCGamedog]

One thing that concerns me a little bit is the front frame height. By building one of these simple "stacked" frames, I looks like the shackle mounts would be higher with respect to the lowest point on the frame. I'm thinking there are two options for correcting this: (1) Build shackle mounts that hang down farther OR (2) Run longer shackles. If using option 2, I'm thinking the mounts would have to be slid back on the frame to achieve a proper shackle angle, and I'm worried this may cause some steering box interference or other adverse effect. I'm not terribly excited about option 1 either, as it may look poorly engineered. However, It may be the most beneficial method, b/c it will allow me to build in a bit more lift. And it may also not be as bad as I think b/c they shouldnt have to be spaced down that much (I'm thinking no more than 1.5" depending on the length of the shackle I decide to use).

A little bit of info on the planned build:
I am planning to run either waggy 7 leaf front springs on all four corners, or a combination of waggys at one end and trooper rears at the other, or Holbrooks. I am looking for about 2.5-3.5" lift SUA and around 4" of wheelbase stretch. I will be using Toyota mini truck 8" axles (IFS rear 58" WMS-WMS and '83 or earlier front with 1.5" wheel spacers which will net 58" WMS-WMS). The drive train will be the original 258 to a NP435/D300. I may be getting a 1980 model D300 which is only 10.5" long compared to the normal 12". I haven't actually pulled a tape on it, but from the info I have been able to find online, the distance from the axle centerline to the pinion yolk/flange face is 11" on the toys and 9.75" on the AMC 20 (current rear axle). From the back of the engine to the rear of the T-case my drive-train should only end up 1.38" longer than stock if I use an '81 and later D300 and EXACTLY the same if I use the 1980 model. So I need to gain some wheel base in the rear to have a rear drive shaft of any length. My current shaft only measures ~13.5"! I honestly would like to be able to avoid stretching it at all, but it looks like its gonna be necessary. My overall build approach is to keep it within the confines of what it was meant to be, a small nimble 4x4. I simply want to improve the suspension performance and off-road/crawling ability. I think the extra width from the Toyota axles will give it some extra stability w/o getting too wide. I am also trying to decide whether or not to widen the frame out to 29" on center to match the Toyota perch width, or keep it stock width and out board the springs in the front. Keeping the frame narrower should offer move suspension flex due to the increased leverage on the springs, but may decrease the stability on side hills and increase the roll center. By widening the frame the inverse of the former would be true, but I gain room between the rails to potentially clock the T-case up higher and route exhaust. The only other ill effect I can think of from widening the frame may be the tires contacting it during max suspension compression and turning, but if that doesn't happen on a Toyota it shouldn't come into play here. One major benefit I see to the frame ends being higher (especially in the front) is the additional clearance between the top of the axle and bottom of frame. This will allow for more up-travel and steering link clearance under compression.

[Mieser]

The front frame position if pretty close to stock. The stock frame has a dip, but the 'stacked' frame is generally taller and doesn't tuck as high against the grill as stock. I can try and get a measurement on mine....new frame vs stacked frame, but I would say its less than 1" difference. You could run a front spring with slightly more arch and less shackle length and end up at the same place.
You would have to watch the caster and pinion angle but it wouldn't be THAT much of a change.

I plan on tuning the front to rear rake when using the same springs on all 4 corners with the shackle length on my frame.

As long as your not using an MB frame with a fuel tank sump I would just outboard the frame to match your spring width. The slightly wider frame won't really hurt anything. The body mount locations on the tub will have to be moved out but its not THAT big of a deal. Having the extra room would be really nice...I'm running a D18 and things are tight. I can only imagine how tight a D300 will be, especially if you want to clock it or flip it.

I would try and use less lift....2" would be plenty if you play with the fenders a little bit for 35-37" tires.

I would also try and make the belly section of the frame 5" tall, that extra inch will sure make tucking everything a little easier.

[NCGamedog]

^ Yeah right on...I want to use as little lift as possible. I'm sure it depends on the condition of the used springs I find, but I've read that waggys should give about 3" on a stock frame. So if my frame height is a tad higher in the front I should be able to run them (or something similar in arch) and net a bit less lift, while maintaining the same (or more) amount of up-travel.

I plan to build some simple tubular flat fenders for the front, and trim the rear as little as possible. I know i'm gonna have to reshape the rear wheel-well openings to accommodate the stretch, I just hope I can clear 35's w/o comp cutting or hacking into it too high on the body. If I can, I may even add metal back to the front of the wheel well opening to make it look proportional. If I have to I guess i could do the TJ flares in the back, but I really want to keep it looking old school... Form follows function though, I suppose

What springs do you plan to run? SUA or SOA?

[Mieser]

I am going to be running 1" lift 'rear' springs on all 4 corners. They are fairly long but narrow enough to fit in the frame hangers that are built into the frame. I will be running them SUA, front and rear. They will probably be about 2" over my worn out 'stock' springs.

There is almost exactly 37" from the step in the tub to the rear crossmember/bumper. If you get the tire centered in the opening you can run a fairly large tire while still keeping it low. The rear stretch has to be fairly conservative to the tire in the right spot, generally between 2-3" for a 36" tall tire. The amount the tire moves fore and aft on straight compression and then on articulation makes the axle placement even more critical.

You shouldn't need to add metal to the front of the wheel well opening with anything larger than 32" tires. You just need to make the opening larger and more rearward. You can only go so large before the top of the tub becomes the limiting factor.

Generally people tend to think too big with flat fenders. Once you start moving and stretching things is easy to get carried away I think. 1" can make a big difference on something as small as a flat fender ( or early cj5

[NCGamedog]

Hmmm...I just thought of another major benefit to pushing the frame width out!

If the front frame dimensions basically mimic that of a SA Toyota, what is to stop me from running a Toyota steering box like wilez5150 suggested or just a normal 86-95 IFS toy box? This should actually allow me to run "off the shelf" Toyota high steer links!

I doubt I'll be able to get by with typical Toy high steer arms due to the raised height, but Ive been talking to a big toyota parts vendor on here about making a run of Flat high steer arms with the rod end tapers coming up from the bottom. That should give me enough clearance under the frame for the drag link under compression.

Although...By pushing the box to the outside of the frame (effectively making the drag link longer) Would it make drag link frame interference happen faster vs having it on the inside?

[Mieser]

Use and FJ80 or FJ60 style box. They are kinda like a scout box and have a forward facing steering arm that would be in about the same place as an IFS toyota box without the box ending up way out on the frame rail looking VERY much out of place....

Don't worry too much about drag-link length, they are pretty dang easy to make or get made.

Generally a long drag link will be 'better'.

FJ40 arms are built for SUA stock. I think they will bolt to mini-truck knuckles.

If your going SUA with a low lift height your not going to want to try and fit high-steer. On my frame the axle TUBE will go to the frame without hitting the oil pan or the driveshaft getting in the way. The springs would be reverse arch at this point, but it just gives an idea on the front axle clearance.



Front axle maxed out in the frame. Unless you only want about 2-3" of compression travel the axle is going to move pretty far up towards the frame.

[wilez5150]

food for thought. wide springs = less flex and more stable ride. narrow springs = more flex and less stable ride. if you build a wider frame can you reverse the frame mounts or do you have to make all new body mount locations. maybe a narrow front frame, widen as it moves under the body for t case room and wide springs in the back gives more room for gas tank, exhust, but that would be a pain to build. my son is the yota expert not me, i forget how wide the axles are but i know some of his junk rubs bad on the rear frame with out spacers. IFS steering is one of the best made but i think i would put it on a narrow frame. SUA with a minimal lift the drag link won't be a problem

[NCGamedog]

Well....the main reason to make the frame wider is to match the perch width of the toyota axles. The extra room for the T-case and all is just kind of a bonus. We're not talking a huge change in width either...To my understanding the CJ perch width is 27.5" and Toyota is 29". So basically it would only be 3/4" wider on each side or 1.5" overall. I am considering running the trooper springs on one end and they are 2.25" wide springs, so slightly narrower than the more traditional 2.5". And I may still consider going with the Holbrook springs, but they are pretty spendy.

[wilez5150]

i had the hi $$ alcans but they didn't last. i broke 3 mains in 2 years and it was a pain because they made me send one as a form to make a replacemend. i have the steel yard bend 1/4 stock to make my own spring hangers. thats whats on the green cj front end with a 2' spacer

[Mieser]

Originally Posted by wilez5150

i had the hi $$ alcans but they didn't last. i broke 3 mains in 2 years and it was a pain because they made me send one as a form to make a replacemend. i have the steel yard bend 1/4 stock to make my own spring hangers. thats whats on the green cj front end with a 2' spacer

That is interesting. I wonder if Deaver or National would be any different?

My plan is to run the same 'affordable' spring ( $90 1" lift rear superlift ) on all 4 corners. Then probably buy a few spares and keep one or two around the house and/or on the tow rig during long trips.

I was planning on getting custom springs made down the road....but if the cheap springs work well enough I will probably just use those. I wish there where more off the shelf options for old school flatty springs.

For me.....keeping it simple seems to work best.

[56dirtywilly]

I recently built a new frame for my 56 CJ5, yes I know it's an early 5 and it's stretched, but it's the stock width and an idea for you.
Frame material is 2"x4" .188" wall and 1/4" fish plating

Dimensions:

About 145" long (outside bumber to outside bumper)
30" wide (outside frame to outside frame)

[NCGamedog]

Originally Posted by 56dirtywilly

I recently built a new frame for my 56 CJ5, yes I know it's an early 5 and it's stretched, but it's the stock width and an idea for you.
Frame material is 2"x4" .188" wall and 1/4" fish plating

Dimensions:

About 145" long (outside bumber to outside bumper)
30" wide (outside frame to outside frame)

Nah dont sweat it man, I'm open to any examples really. That looks like a really nice job! Super clean! Looks like I'm gonna need to do a frame TABLE build before I ever get to the frame build itself lol.

Do you have any pics w/ the body being mocked up or did you just finish it?

[56dirtywilly]

Originally Posted by NCGamedog

Nah dont sweat it man, I'm open to any examples really. That looks like a really nice job! Super clean! Looks like I'm gonna need to do a frame TABLE build before I ever get to the frame build itself lol.

Do you have any pics w/ the body being mocked up or did you just finish it?

I actually just barely finished the frame and it looks the same as in the pictures right now. I haven't welded any body mounts yet but I do have some pictures of the tub sitting on the frame on my build page if that helps http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=956451
As soon as I get any progress made I'll let you know.

[Mieser]

Having a welding table is nice for sure. I got mine used off craigslist, keep an eye out in your area.

Get a lower table, or maybe an adjustable one. I think something about 20" high would be perfect. That way you can stack the frame and body on the table in a normal garage using an engine hoist without a lot of trouble. It also makes it lower to work on once all that is on the table.

Also, having the table roll around is nice if you have limited space. It lets you shuffle parts around easier.