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Old 06-20-2012, 01:53 PM   #26 (permalink)
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definitely look into your caster angle, my jeep had the same symptoms until i set the pinion at caster at -5* (0* pinion angle)
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:38 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NorCalPR View Post
I run one on my leaf sprung Toyota. On the street, I can steer with one finger. It doesn't effect the ride too much.

For wheeling, I pull a cotter pin, pull the pin on the axle, and pull the bar up to the frame where there's a bracket to hold it up out of the way. If you're dropped out or if that side that the axle that the bar goes to is stuffed, there is a tremendous amount of stress introduced because the bar is trying to force the axle over, but the springs are fighting back...

Run one on the street, you'll love it. IMHO though, remove it for the trail.


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I am liking the idea, kind of like sway bar disco's as well... I don't think i need a sway bar. I kind of like how it feels like I'm doing a wheel stand coming around corners
One finger would be nice for steering, not white knuckling it. Almost think I need a SOS knob to fling the wheel quicker.
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:40 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
Wait, what is your caster again? negative?

My setup shouldn't work at all, but it does. Simple cheap 1" rear springs at all 4 corners with a full military wrap second leaf. I built oilite brass bushings for the spring eyes....read metal on metal connection. The shackle mount is a small poly bushing. The shackles are short 3" center to center units in front....not tied together at all. The spring and shackles are secured with all metal lock nuts so that I could set the pre-load on all the bushings.



Even with the metal bushings it will still eat up a 9-10" stroke shock.

A track-bar isn't a bad idea, but the roll center of the track bar is generally going to be much different than the leaf springs causing bind. Now if your leaf springs are a somewhat loose system anyways, you probably won't notice that much.

My concoction of parts lets me run a big wide 35" tire down the road with one hand on the wheel no problem....
Caster was like 8* negative, now it's at 4*, using a craftsman protractor. Looking at the play, it is all in the bushings at the shackle mounts. But, when it flexes, it does use the bushings. Not sure where my flex would come from with bronze bushings?

Also, you're Jeep is awesome. I'm still trying to figure out how you kept a good steering radius with good flex and fit 35's on what little lift you have.
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:48 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Caster was like 8* negative, now it's at 4*, using a craftsman protractor. Looking at the play, it is all in the bushings at the shackle mounts. But, when it flexes, it does use the bushings. Not sure where my flex would come from with bronze bushings?

Also, you're Jeep is awesome. I'm still trying to figure out how you kept a good steering radius with good flex and fit 35's on what little lift you have.
I'm not saying use bronze bushings. I am saying even with bronze bushings the springs will still 'flex' as seen in the picture I posted. That is with fresh springs with a full military wrapped 2nd leaf, spring clamps still intact and tight, and brass bushings at the spring hanger and spring side of the shackle. There is a poly bushing at the upper ( frame ) end of the shackle.

To me it sounds like the springs are just nice and soft and with the longer rear spring section they have more flex in the system.

For your application a track-bar probably wouldn't be a bad solution. The hard part is going to build it so that it works. With the leaf spring vehicle the springs create one roll center AND another one is basically created by the drag link of the steering. If the springs are soft enough if you match the track bar to the length and angle of the track bar you should be able to force the suspension ( through slop in the leaf spring bushings ) into following the roll center created by the drag link without having any bumpsteer.

Having the room to do that on an old willys jeep is another thing...
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:51 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Also.....I think we need to get some terminology straight...



Is your caster 4 degrees NEGATIVE?
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:53 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
I'm not saying use bronze bushings. I am saying even with bronze bushings the springs will still 'flex' as seen in the picture I posted. That is with fresh springs with a full military wrapped 2nd leaf, spring clamps still intact and tight, and brass bushings at the spring hanger and spring side of the shackle. There is a poly bushing at the upper ( frame ) end of the shackle.

To me it sounds like the springs are just nice and soft and with the longer rear spring section they have more flex in the system.

For your application a track-bar probably wouldn't be a bad solution. The hard part is going to build it so that it works. With the leaf spring vehicle the springs create one roll center AND another one is basically created by the drag link of the steering. If the springs are soft enough if you match the track bar to the length and angle of the track bar you should be able to force the suspension ( through slop in the leaf spring bushings ) into following the roll center created by the drag link without having any bumpsteer.

Having the room to do that on an old willys jeep is another thing...
The highlighted part is the biggest issue. I'm seeing a place I can fit one. I know Ballistic is a bad word around here but I honestly have never had an issue with them, and I do like the product they make. If I build something like this:
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...nt_p_1629.html

And put it between the PS u bolts, I can get the track bar in there, tightly. Mockup for me is a little funny. I put light tacks on it, go out, cycle suspension, and if it pops it's in the wrong spot, if it holds it's where it should be, exactly how I made my shock mounts.
Maybe I need to take a trip up to Colorado
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:54 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Also.....I think we need to get some terminology straight...



Is your caster 4 degrees NEGATIVE?
I think I spent way too much time in the pool today... I know better. Sorry, 4* positive. That's a rough measurement but you can certainly see it just looking at the pinion angle.
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:03 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Also, you're Jeep is awesome. I'm still trying to figure out how you kept a good steering radius with good flex and fit 35's on what little lift you have.
Thank you.

Steering radius isn't super great. The front axle is 54" wide with 15x10"+ beadlock wheels. This gives the tire a bit of room to move around. It doesn't turn as tight as I would like, but it is pretty decent for being so compact.

The axles where pushed around when I designed the frame to allow the axles to be in a position where the front axle could still swing a large tire without hitting the front bumper or the rear of the fender. The front is approx 3" forward from the stock position. The front springs are longer rear springs so that helps the front end flex much more than stock.

The springs I used are not high arch springs so they flex pretty well and the axle doesn't shift forward or back much with articulation.

I was able to get 4"+ of compression travel from ride height while being so low because I built EVERYTHING around that from the beginning. I basically put the axle a position that it could go all the way to the frame without hitting the engine, driveshaft, steering, etc.

The fenders where then raised to give the tires enough room to move around. I can't even count all the little things I moved around while building to get everything to sit so low. It was basically scratch built though, so doing these mods was a lot easier than trying to work around an existing frame, engine location, etc.



Next to a bone stock version....

I basically 'pancaked' the vehicle. Seating position went down. Typical roll cage height was dropped. Engine/transmission/t-case where raised. Fenders where raised. Suspension height was minimized. Axles where moved to 'better' locations. Front frame length was modified.
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:49 PM   #34 (permalink)
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my springs are pretty darn loose and flexy, and i've thought a good bit that a track bar might help its road manners, specifically under hard breaking.

but... honestly it just sounds too hard to get right in such a small package. i'm far more inclined to think a sway bar (especially like curries jobber) would help more, and be far easier to package.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:56 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I always wanted to try a small tie-rod that would go from each shackle to the center of the frame under the front bumper. It would not tie the shackles together limiting travel, but basically keep the shackle from rocking side to side.

The small tie rods could be built to be easily pulled off for trail work. They could even be built with right and left threads so they could be adjusted in length easily to pre-load the shackles slightly to prevent side to side slop.

Just a thought.
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:14 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I would throw a panhard bar on it, and an additional cross member tying the panhard bar frame mount to the opposite side frame rail stiffening the frame as these frames are very flexible. Looking at the video I think you have some frame flex, some flex in the "non shackle side" spring hangars, and some excessive spring bushing deflection all at the same time. Your caster of 4* is a little on the low side and may cause it to wander when driving down the road. I usually shoot for 6-8* caster. Although the greater the caster the more leverage it will have to cause the side deflection you are experiencing.
I have used brackets from these vendors and they too make some good products.
http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/...dtrackbar.html
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/...=search&page=5
http://www.Barnes4wd.com/Trackbar-Mo...kets_c_32.html
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:30 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Different vehicle but bear with me...

I built an 86 CJ7. Sprung over on new YJ springs. Went with a conversion shackel in the front to match that happened to be 1 inch lift. It drove fine but the steering wasn't the greatest (didn't seem to turn far enough). I took it on the first run and actually bent the spring mounts at the frame in the front by the bumper. I didn't notice it at slow speeds but the mount let the front end move side to side a couple inches and I couldn't see that in the shop. Untill they had enought pressure to actually bend them.

I thought I needed a Trac bar also but....

I replaced the spring hangers with reinforced units and that fixed it. I have very little play side to side.

The way I see it that Jeep has run almost 70yrs without a trac bar why add one now. There has to be something worn out. Check your hangers closely.

Chappy
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