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Old 10-18-2010, 10:29 AM   #1 (permalink)
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CJ2A build ideas / questions

I took possession of my 2A about 16 years ago when I wasn't real savvy about Jeeps or mechanical stuff other than the basics. What followed was a fast-tracked learning experience, as the previous owner(s) had bastardized and abused this thing badly. Because of this, restoration to anything resembling stock is out of the question.

I have build plans that I would like to share and get your input on. The intentions for this build are: Low-buck, use mostly what I have on hand already, solid, effective trail/bush/daily driver, keep it simple & uncomplicated to trail fix. We have no real rocks where I live and am more concerned with road driveability & getting through bush, mud & muskeg on my hunting trips.

Solid plans:
  • carbed 302 Ford cuz I have one & if I had a Chevy horse, that sucker would likely die on me too! Just bad experiences with every one I've had.
  • T-19 cuz it hooks right up
  • D20 cuz I have one in a rotted out Scout
  • D44's cuz they are in the same Scout - I intend to narrow to keep street legal (or close to)
  • Spring over with YJ leaves...???

I have some questions about my plans that I would like answers to, if you all would be so kind. I've been reading a pile of stuff all over the place trying to find answers but I get the feeling that some of my plans are not often put into practice.
  • YJ springs seem to be the thing to throw into a 2A. I don't have as much of a need for flex as a lot of you guys, so I think it may just be a question as to whether or not I need to add leaves to stiffen (for mud, etc.) or just leave them alone: agree?
  • Shackle reversal - I know how to do it but I can't find anywhere why guys do this. This may be because it's been done now for so long that generally, most guys know.
  • Stretching the Jeep for drivetrain & Spring mounting - do guys "extend" the frame for mounting longer springs & then splice material to stretch the tub, or actually stretch the frame (add by splicing)?
  • Any ballpark idea as to what sort of length my rear driveshaft will end up being with this combo in a stock-length 2A? The T-19 & D20 together should be about 24" with Novak's adapter.

Thank you to all who are kind enough to reply. I will more than likely be asking more questions as they surface. The old girl has been sitting in pieces for far too long now and I want to finally make some progress. I'm intending to complete the "engineering" portion of this prior to starting the build - don't really like doing things more times than absolutely necessary.

Looking forward to the replies!
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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A v8 is gonna be a tough fit length wise, without lengthening something. The stock frame will give out sooner or later with v8 power i'm sure. I'd recommend building a new one from rectangular tubing. My 3a was cracked up in the front frame horns with a Buick 225 v6 in it. I'm running a TBI injected 4.3L from an astro van I picked up for 200 bucks. I added 2 inches to the hood and fenders for extra piece of mind considering the cooling since I live out here in AZ where it's hotter than the fires of hell. Overall my frame is 20 inches longer than stock adding 15 inches to the wheelbase. I also split the tub and added 6 inches of foot room.

The stock steering is a pile too. I put a powered saginaw box in mine from a 77 Waggy along with a XJ column and YJ steering shaft. Don't know how wide the the 302 is vs a 350 but the steering shaft barely fits past the exhaust manifolds in mine. You could do outside frame rail headers and put the steering shaft below the pipes; for me this wasn't an option. I didn't want to smash the exhaust on rocks.

I used front YJ springs and front waggy springs for the rear. I had them laying around. Front waggy springs used on front and rear seems to be pretty common though. The spring perches on the 44's will be quite a bit wider than you cj frame so again it would be a plus building a new frame to match the front perch width.

Hope this helps ya. My build is going good but if I started over again I'd probably have made a few changes to the frame I built. It'll work reguardless though..

Good luck.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:02 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Yes, I neglected to mention that I had already built a 2X3X.100 wall HSS tubing frame for it several years ago. It was shortly after that, that domestication took hold of me and my project never moved further. I have the frame rails built to the stock dimensions but have not tied them together yet, as appropriate width was not decided upon at the time. I should, however, be able to keep it stock width and cut the axles to whatever width I choose. This is not a real concern for me because I spent almost 20 years as a machinist and welder and still have access to this equipment.

I have given a lot of thought to the 4.3 Chevy but just can't bring myself to do it. It would make the perfect mill for the little buggy. I also figured that because I'd get a little more grunt out of the 302 that my gearing wouldn't have to be so steep which will help with highway driving in the absence of an overdrive. From what I gather, the 302 is a narrower setup than the 350.

I have read that YJ springs are pretty much the same length as the stock CJ2A's. This is hard to believe. It seems I have seen some guys' builds with YJ springs and they appear quite long by comparison. How long are the Waggoneer springs? I apologize for these simple questions but I work in a northern Canadian mine and am not home very much to get to the junk yards with a tape measure.

As for the steering, I intend to use what's in the Scout unless someone knows off the hop that this is just a stupid idea... And the exhaust, well, as I said before about the condition of the rig - cutting & modifying anything just isn't going to affect the originality of the vehicle. I think the exhaust is definitely going to go outside because of the confined space and heating issues associated with keeping everything inside the frame.

Thanks for the response and I hope your project is further along than mine!
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Old 10-24-2010, 09:27 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I have a 2a with 225, t18, d18, narrowed waggy axles spring under yj springs.

YJ springs? Stock should work, may have to add leaves to stiffen or add track bar to help with axle wrap. Try them, can always add to them.

Shackle reversal? I would not do it. Problems with front driveshaft slip yoke and u joint angle on droop. Front end dives worse on hard braking. Stock set up provides increased force/traction for front tires against an obstruction on compression, oppisite on a reversal set up.

Frame stretch for spring mount? I did not do it. Just move the fixed hanger.

Rear shaft length? SHORT and STEEP. I agree a V8 with stock length will be tough. With my combo which has a 1 inch adapter, my rear shaft is approx 18 inches. However with the d18 I have lower rear output so it helps with angle and I do not have to use a CV rear shaft. Plan on a CV shaft unless stretch frame.

Steig000

What inside frame width did you use?

What would you change?

Any ideas on a tight fitting 4.3 drivers exhaust manifold? Got one from a JImmy, but may need tighter fit. Front wheel drive car???

I am currently doing a 4.3 and 4l60e (from 2000 astro), 241 (passenger drop)case swap into a 72 commando with the narrow track axles. I think the frame is same width as cj2a I have as well and am planning a future 4.3 auto swap. Have only done a quick drivetrain mock up and found driverside exhaust manifold problem and 241 case is WIDE. May have to notch frame rail and then deal with front driveshaft to trans pan clearance issue especially since have narrow track axles. Trans pan rail is offset to passenger side on this trans since it was originally a drivers drop AWD. Any thoughts?
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:15 PM   #5 (permalink)
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My frame measures 28 inches wide, inside to inside. The YJ shaft has about a 1/4" of clearance when passing the manifolds from an Astro Van. I would have been screwed with the Buick 225; that motor is about 3 inches wider than a 4.3L. I had that mounted up before the 4.3L and was about to relocate the end of the steering column to fit it. Would have looked funny with the column in a bit crooked.

If I were to start over I would have matched the frame rails with the front axle mounts. Main reason for that would be so I could have frenched the shackle mounts. The mounts are slightly outboarded and the Jeep is a bit higher than I'd like. Down the road when I go to coilovers it won't matter so I decided not to mess with it.

If you don't change the frame width you could always go with a steering box that can be outboarded. I think early Bronco's came with that style of saginaw box. I've also seen double Joint setups to kick the shaft out wider.

I have no experience with auto transmissions so dunno bout that.
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Old 10-25-2010, 05:21 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Sounds interesting.. here's a few builds that I'd take a look at before you get along too far....

Brian1 GPW build /forum/jeep-willys/424868-1942-flatfender-build-up-project.html

SVARAS MB build http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=424868

wildwilly M38 http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=424868

fordfacist GPW /forum/jeep-willys/775559-project-flat-f-er-fender.html


As far as springs go, I've been doing a little research for my own flatty and compiled this list of spring lengths and stuff from Rancho's web site:
(p/n, spring rate, length, arch and width. From this list AFAIK only the waggy has an offset spring pin)

There are some other options out there too for the mostly stock flatty crowd from holbrook, but it probably isn't really what you're looking for.

http://www.holbrookspecialties.com/

CJ-2a
2.5 Front RS44020 349 lb/in 36.5 lg 4.370 arch
2.5 Rear RS44120 316 lb/in 42.5 lg 5.630 arch

1 Front RS44010 353 lb/in 36.24 lg 3.170 arch
1 Rear RS44110 330 lb/in 42.0lg 4.640 arch

early CJ-5
44061 335 40.0 3.59 1.75
44161 280 46.1 4.15 1.75
44062 314 40.5 5.10 1.75
44162 287 46.7 6.15 1.75

CJ 76+
44091 300 44.88 4.25 2.0
44191 290 45.4 4.35 2.5
44092 325 44.88 5.5 2.0
44192 290 45.4 5.6 2.5

YJ
44047 174 45.2 6.75 2.0
44147 200 45.6 6.65 2.5
44050 174 46.0 7.62 2.0
44150 200 45.9 7.25 2.5

waggy
44044 300 47.0 6.580 2.5 22.5/24.5

sami
44046 256 36.8 2.75 2.0 4leaf pack
44146 156 39.36 4.05 2.0 4leaf pack
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Old 10-25-2010, 07:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks for the dimensions Steig000. I have a double offset joint on my 2a steer shaft and works fine.
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:43 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks guys! I just picked up a '74 Scout rolling chassis for $150 and sat the Willys tub on it over the rear wheels. That axle width is about perfect and I shouldn't get too much grief out of Barney about being outside the fenders. I found that the Scout frame width is only 3-1/4" wider than the stock 2A frame, so I think I will keep it this way, shorten up the frame, make different body mounts and go! This way, I won't have to mess with spring perches & mounts and such. It may also help with clearances for exhaust & steering.

Do you guys think that the stock Scout front springs would be too stiff for nasty trail (but non-rock) use that I want to set up for? The length of them seems fairly appropriate.

I've also found a fuel injected 302 in a '91 Mustang for a reasonable price. Everything that I need to make the transplant is there for the taking. Thoughts on injected vs. carbed (simplicity, reliability, etc.)?
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
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One more thing (as I am still away at work); does anyone know what steering box was used on the '79 Scout I have and would it be a suitable piece for my 2A?

Thanks!
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:20 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJotabronco View Post
One more thing (as I am still away at work); does anyone know what steering box was used on the '79 Scout I have and would it be a suitable piece for my 2A?

Thanks!
I don't know much about the Scout box and what it has, but I am running a Jeep J20 box on mine. Works fine, and more power then what I need with my 34" tires. I really need a beefier tie rod, as the box bends it like it was made of PVC
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Bit of an update: I just picked up a '99 302 with the GT40P heads - I think this should probably drive what I need... This is a distributorless system - is there anything I need other than a distributor to run this thing simply? Do I need a different intake or anything? Gonna use the Scout frame and shorten the bugger, the front springs should do for now (46" length - may need to drop a leaf {keep in mind no "superflex" needed here}), trying to source a set of YJ springs for the rear as well. This should probably do well with an anti-wrap bar? Think I'm gonna need it with a SOA. Does anyone have a good illustration of how to properly fab & set one up? Thanks much for everything so far guys! can't wait to start burnin' on this pig! There's approxiamately 10" of snow on the ground up here in Saskatchewan, so I think she's full-on engineering time and get ready to start building once I have the floor and heat in the shop or wait 'til spring.... think i'll look into concrete prices.....
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:04 PM   #12 (permalink)
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BTW, just had a quick look at what the Scout had for a steering box and at least the configuration seems okay. God almighty, if it could turn stock-size tires under that 345 and Scout body weight, surely it can handle a CJ2A with a little ol' 302! Think I'm gonna use it and if it poops out, I'll add hydro or something!
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:19 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Hey guys, one more - i have been thinking about headers. I have seen both shortys and regulars for sale that will fit my 302. With the Scout frame width and considering the 2A fender width, do I need shortys or will regulars do? is there any performance difference between the two?
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:23 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Sorry - and I should really clarify; i know I need a wiring harness but other than that, do i need anything other than a distributor...? Damn, this Crown Royal is good!!!
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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A few things I can tell you Ive built a few willys over the years. (Early cj 5,cj 2/3a and 3b have the same frame widths)

1 And the most important you need to know what tire height your going to run because this determines alot of other things like gearing, lift, cam selection brakes etc.

2 run the scout axles stock width just turn the knuckles there only approx 3 in wider than a wide track jeep cj axle

3 set your rails on center using the spring centers on the scout axle

4 For street driving nothing rides better then a shakel reversal if you go this way run the rear bushing threw the frame don t make a bracket with one in it and weld it to the bottom the frame it will crack there ask me how i know

5 use wrangler springs

6Scout steering box is fine they work really well just sleeve the frame where the bolts are going to go threw also with using a scout box if you ever mount a winch you can mount it low in the frame

7 a ford 302 will fit nicely in the engine bay with out stretching the nose just do you home work on cooling the engine the more power it builds the more heat it makes, the more cooling thats needed
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Okay thanks. Responses to this:
1) 36's should be okay as long as I get some 4.56's or so in the diffs.
2) Turn the knuckles? Are you talking about spinning the caster back to 5 to 6 degrees? Honestly, I think I will leave it at the Scout original unless it proves inreasonable, but yeah, I know what you're gettin' at!
3) Rails on center? I plan on using the Scout setup and just modifying the 2A body to fit (not a helluva lot of difference)
4) A reverse shackle front? Is this adviseable in my case (no rocks, lotsa mud & "moosey" trails). I see your streetable manners but for reliable trail use, is this the best option? I want this thing to fucking crush all mud and snow trails - be unstoppable out here where we hunt big-ass moose and nasty-big whitetails! Not too much to ask, is it?
5) Wrangler springs vs CJ vs YJ springs - what is the difference and why? I have read that CJ's are a bit stiffer in some cases but I think YJ's should do - unless you can add some more confusion for me....
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:15 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Okay, let's get some shit straight in this post! There are no rocks in Saskatchewan and I have no plans to crawl any! The only things I need is to get across some bog and get the hell outta Dodge when the neighbor's dad comes home! Lotsa mud, piles of snow and a whole lotta get the fuck out is what I need! Moose live in places where the normal 4X4 can't get to and I'm tired of draggin' the pricks across 13 miles of muskeg! Did enough of that when I guided in the Yukon for Shockey! Loved it but only so much a fella can take! Need a setup that is fully functional in that crap rather than flexy rock rigs that might have some trouble handling the "stiffer" mud and bog requirements that I'm looking for. Need something unstoppable for the cold north other than a trackhoe (which I already own)!
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:26 PM   #18 (permalink)
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As for cooling, I have no idea what the radiator is that came with it, but the 327 that came in it cooled just fine. Think I'll keep it until it proves to be unsuitable. Any comments on the 302 injection system? Other than the older wiring system, what will I need to hook this prick up?
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:35 PM   #19 (permalink)
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1 Yes you can put 4.56 in the axles just may have to change carriers d44 used 2 deferent carriers a low gear 4.10 and up 4.27 4.56 etc and a high gear 3.92 and down 3.73 3.55 etc

2 on a scout axle when you set the caster to 5 to 6 the piion is pointing almost to the ground. If you set the pinion were its not down so much you will go into negitive caster and the thing will drive like shit down the road. Remember you always want positive caster thats the top of the knuckle pointing back.

3missed the part about putting it on the scout frame sorry . But if you modify the body what are you going to do for a top ? custom? the reason I ask is after a long days hunting do you want to come back to a rig that you can t get out of the elements?

4 reverse shackle this can get into a major debate search there are pages of people fighting over witch is right.After i did it to my first jeep I never looked back do it to all of them know.

5when building any kind of off road rig remember the 3 Ts Torque Travel @ Traction. when it comes to travel the longer flatter and wider a spring is the better it will work you don't want a real stiff ride.Wrangler springs are long and flat and wide they work.

hope this helps some. Leaving tomorrow 2 go do a little hunting myself so if you have any more questions may be a little while before i am back
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Old 12-02-2010, 07:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
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1. Yeah, I've already sussed out the carrier differences and realize that I will have to change them out since the current ratio in the Scout axles is likely to be 3.54 (that's what they are in my '79 - probably close to same in the '74 fame and diffs that I am using).

2. Temporarily neglected to take into account the pinion angle. This is likely to force the caster change (damn Crown Royal!). However, this should prove quite easy for me - former machinist & welder with good access to those tools still

3. Good point about the environmental factor. I've thought long and hard about the body stretch, as I do have a fibreglass top for it. I would like some more length to the little bugger but don't know how keen I am about modifying the hard top. Am leaning more toward carving out the fender wells only, to get more leg room.

4. Shackle location..... Oh boy. I know the different opinions from what I've read on SO many dofferent posts. Can you guys give me, say, a percentage better ride quality for the reverse shackle? If it's only marginal, I may just leave it 'shackle front' for pure stress-free-hard trail hackin'-leave it alone forever.....ness....

5. Think I've had it in the back of my mind for a long time now - YJ springs. Seems easiest, practical, appropriate, recommended by many. Good enough by this kid!

One last thing; nobody has commented on the switch from the late-model distributorless Ford 5.0 to the earlier, easier MAF system. I think all I need is the MAF harness and a MAF timing cover. Any input from anyone? Thanks all!

the1208: let me know how the hunt goes. Always interested in hunting stories and species taken (c/w pictures, of course!)
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:57 AM   #21 (permalink)
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A stock frame will not handle a 302, I know this because that is this is the setup I have. We have boxed the frame and done everything humanly possible to beef up the frame.....still am getting cracks through out it. I am looking at either building or getting an after market frame.....but regardless as fun as that 302 is in a little willys know that is is going to be a very tight fit!!!
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Old 08-06-2011, 02:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
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i have yj springs in one jeep, coils in another. here comes somthing different. i have a cj5 i used izuzu trooper springs on. off set center pins so you get up to 8" of wheel base increase with out modifing the frame length. it was also about a 3" lift useing the stock springs. don't be afraid to think out side the box. shackle reverse is a must for hiway handling. i tried 5 different steering boxes before i found the scout. you will notice the cj has a toyota power steering box
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Old 08-06-2011, 02:12 PM   #23 (permalink)
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ps i have 425hp in a modified cj6 frame and have been wheeling jv for 15 years without a crack!
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