JV - USMC FEIS Released.

[Jeff Knoll]

Originally Posted by tjmark

Any idea?

Congress has to approve, who knows in the current economic state.

[tjmark]

Originally Posted by Jeff Knoll

Congress has to approve, who knows in the current economic state.

Thanks
Having a new $$ car in the works this weighs heavy in the back of my mind.

[BJLOVER]

Originally Posted by tjmark

Thanks
Having a new $$ car in the works this weighs heavy in the back of my mind.

Build it quickly, let's wheel that bitch this winter

[bushauler]

Originally Posted by tjmark

Thanks
Having a new $$ car in the works this weighs heavy in the back of my mind.

know exactly how you feel. im balls deep in a new car that will be done by the end of the year and im 1 hour from the hammers. hate to invest all the money just to lose the best place to wheel

[BJLOVER]

Originally Posted by bushauler

know exactly how you feel. im balls deep in a new car that will be done by the end of the year and im 1 hour from the hammers. hate to invest all the money just to lose the best place to wheel

Maybe both of you guys need to be like Paul and get a short course car, he predicted the future

[bushauler]

mark i read the q&a today attached to the eis. it says the f=navy wants the final record of decision to be done in september 2012 with forces training on the land in 2014. first full meb exercise would be 2015.

when is congress expected to enact the 2013 Defense Authorization Act?

[BJLOVER]

Gonna be a lot of buggy's for sale in California ?

[bushauler]

Originally Posted by BJLOVER

Gonna be a lot of buggy's for sale in California ?

probably, honestly if it goes through i will probably sell it and get something to race MORE. or finally get out of cali all together.

[murphy325]

Lets get this straight--- I LOVE THE HAMMERS,
I live 40 minutes away and pretty much hit it every other weekend during the season. After 15 years of active duty service moving out here to Cali has been one of the best things in my life. For the years I was in the military I was completely isolated from my family. This sport/hobby has allowed me to reconnect with my family more importantly my brother who is with out a doubt the most important person in my life. The hammers have become the catalyst for family bonding beyond expectation.

Little fact for you since 9/11 our conventional military both Army and Marines have completely atrophied in its ability to fight the conventional fight. They have been operating in a bullshit Geo political, Hybrid threat, COIN environment for the better part of 10 fucking years. The Army and Marines as a whole have lost the ability to perform their traditional roll as war fighters. This is the reason the Armed forces are realigning their strategic training objectives to match the Global threat.

So right now let’s forget about the Army they are not the issue. We are talking about the Marines and the 29 Palms expansion.
The main roll of the Marines is providing combat power from the sea using Navy assets to rapidly deploy a combined arms task force to the threat area. This is how these guys get to work. Now the Marines have to fight inland, take key terrain and expand. Unfortunately there is no place to do it out on the coast.

The bottom line is the Johnson valley area specifically the Hammers look just like South West Asia. Even though they are drawing down in Afghanistan and Iraq it’s not over by a long shot in that region.

If we did loose the Hammers it would obviously suck balls.
But if it saved one life it would be worth it. I have seen way too many young soldiers blown the fuck up and shot to fucking pieces leaking gravy in the desert. Trust me it’s not a pretty sight.

You have to look at this from a ground pounder perspective not a Congressional, big Marine Corps perspective. While it may be relative it’s the men and women on the ground fighting the fight that will suffer the end result of whatever decision is made.
The ground pounder does not give shit where he trains as long as he is afforded the opportunity to train in the most relevant realistic environment available.

Are you all that fucking selfish that you would sacrifice the training and lives of our troops to satisfy your need to play around in the dessert? Are you really going to whine and sell your buggy because they took the Hammers to better train our war fighters?
Well maybe you should fucking sell it pull your head out of your ass and go fuck yourself. You’re obviously not that dedicated. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!!!!!!
Maybe you should spend a day in the Helmand Province or maybe the Korengal valley or try a day in Mosul, Tal Afar, or Fallujah, and then tell me the young men and women of our armed forces don’t deserve every asset and training opportunity available to them.

Or better yet think of your young son’s or daughter’s fighting over seas would you not sacrifice everything you had if it added to their survivability..

Just my 2 cents

[bushauler]

Originally Posted by murphy325

Lets get this straight--- I LOVE THE HAMMERS,
I live 40 minutes away and pretty much hit it every other weekend during the season. After 15 years of active duty service moving out here to Cali has been one of the best things in my life. For the years I was in the military I was completely isolated from my family. This sport/hobby has allowed me to reconnect with my family more importantly my brother who is with out a doubt the most important person in my life. The hammers have become the catalyst for family bonding beyond expectation.

Little fact for you since 9/11 our conventional military both Army and Marines have completely atrophied in its ability to fight the conventional fight. They have been operating in a bullshit Geo political, Hybrid threat, COIN environment for the better part of 10 fucking years. The Army and Marines as a whole have lost the ability to perform their traditional roll as war fighters. This is the reason the Armed forces are realigning their strategic training objectives to match the Global threat.

So right now let’s forget about the Army they are not the issue. We are talking about the Marines and the 29 Palms expansion.
The main roll of the Marines is providing combat power from the sea using Navy assets to rapidly deploy a combined arms task force to the threat area. This is how these guys get to work. Now the Marines have to fight inland, take key terrain and expand. Unfortunately there is no place to do it out on the coast.

The bottom line is the Johnson valley area specifically the Hammers look just like South West Asia. Even though they are drawing down in Afghanistan and Iraq it’s not over by a long shot in that region.

If we did loose the Hammers it would obviously suck balls.
But if it saved one life it would be worth it. I have seen way too many young soldiers blown the fuck up and shot to fucking pieces leaking gravy in the desert. Trust me it’s not a pretty sight.

You have to look at this from a ground pounder perspective not a Congressional, big Marine Corps perspective. While it may be relative it’s the men and women on the ground fighting the fight that will suffer the end result of whatever decision is made.
The ground pounder does not give shit where he trains as long as he is afforded the opportunity to train in the most relevant realistic environment available.

Are you all that fucking selfish that you would sacrifice the training and lives of our troops to satisfy your need to play around in the dessert? Are you really going to whine and sell your buggy because they took the Hammers to better train our war fighters?
Well maybe you should fucking sell it pull your head out of your ass and go fuck yourself. You’re obviously not that dedicated. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!!!!!!
Maybe you should spend a day in the Helmand Province or maybe the Korengal valley or try a day in Mosul, Tal Afar, or Fallujah, and then tell me the young men and women of our armed forces don’t deserve every asset and training opportunity available to them.

Or better yet think of your young son’s or daughter’s fighting over seas would you not sacrifice everything you had if it added to their survivability..

Just my 2 cents

honest question for you, do you feel they have enough land to train on in 29 palms right now or do you feel they need more? i used to work for the marine corp and now work mostly for the army. several marines stationed at 29 have told me they dont need the extra land or use the land they have now.
i dont want to lose one of the last great places in california to recreate for a land grab that will end up being a waste anyway.

[murphy325]

Originally Posted by bushauler

honest question for you, do you feel they have enough land to train on in 29 palms right now or do you feel they need more? i used to work for the marine corp and now work mostly for the army. several marines stationed at 29 have told me they dont need the extra land or use the land they have now.
i dont want to lose one of the last great places in california to recreate for a land grab that will end up being a waste anyway.

I agree with you on the potential wast. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of the sport, and the Hammers is one of the greatest places on earth..
I could not even speculate there are too many factors involved and you will never get a troop list or a force lay down from the Marine's by rotation. I do know 29 starts to get very very small when you stack supporting/enabling units. I do know the Marines are moving to an LSE type exercise which is a large scale combined arms task force that will run much longer than an EMV type exercise . I'm not sure on the Marine task org but an army Brigade combat team has 3 battalions under it with supporting assets a lot of people to kick a lot of ass. I work on the spec ops side of the house throughout the southwest but I do see and understand where the military is trying to go.
does it always make sense ---no you only hope they do what is best for the troops. what I do know is take fort Irwin for example it is about 642000 acres you throw in a brigade combat team of 10000 + add in all enabling units, you throw in air support and a few spec ops teams and its not enough space to maneuver. I think 29 is around 596000 so when they start running this LSE they will run out of room fast
in a small area every thing has to be de conflicted by time and space big boys big toys..
the biggest problem is our military can move further and faster than it ever could before they are able to cover more battle space with a smaller element and hold it with the advances in tec. There are big strategic aspects of this thing your average ground pounder will never know till it's done so while your Marine rifle man or GNY may not use the space there is a brigade or batt. commander who owns and is responsible for the battle space and at some point in time may or may not exploit it.
shit I hope they don't need it and hope they never use it. I don't think the DOD or the Corps will have the money to cordon off the place. think of the ridiculous amount of money it will cost to secure it. your not going to be dropping MRK82'S or 2000pounders or doing any kind of CAS without making the place secure. not only that but I don't think 29 owns the air space that is a huge factor for air assets trying to de conflict with Ontario, LAX, San Diego, and Vegas.

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea from my post. all politics aside I just want people to realize there is a 20 something year old kid at the other end of this thing
that without a doubt deserves the opportunity to have the best fucking training environment humanly possible.

[catfish<><]

know one wants to keep the military from training and being the best they can be, but in my lifetime I have seen public access taken away one trail or area at a time until there is about nothing left to legally wheel, I dont think the powers to be will be happy until we all live in the city, ride bicycles for transportation, and do all our recreating behind a computer screen

bob

[tjmark]

As has been stated many times Most land has been taken away from OHV already.

What good is freedom and public land when the land is no longer for the people.

Any lives lost is not what people want. But politicians always have and will always use military as pawns in their own self righteous ways.

Look at Camp Penelton It is on the ocean and they cannot use all of it for green reasons?

I stand my ground and say i want to keep the hammers for OHV.

Mark

[Sand Crab]

Originally Posted by murphy325

Lets get this straight--- I LOVE THE HAMMERS,
I live 40 minutes away and pretty much hit it every other weekend during the season. After 15 years of active duty service moving out here to Cali has been one of the best things in my life. For the years I was in the military I was completely isolated from my family. This sport/hobby has allowed me to reconnect with my family more importantly my brother who is with out a doubt the most important person in my life. The hammers have become the catalyst for family bonding beyond expectation.

Little fact for you since 9/11 our conventional military both Army and Marines have completely atrophied in its ability to fight the conventional fight. They have been operating in a bullshit Geo political, Hybrid threat, COIN environment for the better part of 10 fucking years. The Army and Marines as a whole have lost the ability to perform their traditional roll as war fighters. This is the reason the Armed forces are realigning their strategic training objectives to match the Global threat.

So right now let’s forget about the Army they are not the issue. We are talking about the Marines and the 29 Palms expansion.
The main roll of the Marines is providing combat power from the sea using Navy assets to rapidly deploy a combined arms task force to the threat area. This is how these guys get to work. Now the Marines have to fight inland, take key terrain and expand. Unfortunately there is no place to do it out on the coast.

The bottom line is the Johnson valley area specifically the Hammers look just like South West Asia. Even though they are drawing down in Afghanistan and Iraq it’s not over by a long shot in that region.

If we did loose the Hammers it would obviously suck balls.
But if it saved one life it would be worth it. I have seen way too many young soldiers blown the fuck up and shot to fucking pieces leaking gravy in the desert. Trust me it’s not a pretty sight.

You have to look at this from a ground pounder perspective not a Congressional, big Marine Corps perspective. While it may be relative it’s the men and women on the ground fighting the fight that will suffer the end result of whatever decision is made.
The ground pounder does not give shit where he trains as long as he is afforded the opportunity to train in the most relevant realistic environment available.

Are you all that fucking selfish that you would sacrifice the training and lives of our troops to satisfy your need to play around in the dessert? Are you really going to whine and sell your buggy because they took the Hammers to better train our war fighters?
Well maybe you should fucking sell it pull your head out of your ass and go fuck yourself. You’re obviously not that dedicated. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!!!!!!
Maybe you should spend a day in the Helmand Province or maybe the Korengal valley or try a day in Mosul, Tal Afar, or Fallujah, and then tell me the young men and women of our armed forces don’t deserve every asset and training opportunity available to them.

Or better yet think of your young son’s or daughter’s fighting over seas would you not sacrifice everything you had if it added to their survivability..

Just my 2 cents

There are many people in SoCal (and elsewhere) who have spent time in those God forsaken hell-holes you mentioned that appreciate Johnson Valley as a place they can use for recreation. For many, off-roading is a way better medicine than seeing the shrink to get their head straight after combat.

[robert-r]

maybe a repost.... maybe a few hours late:
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact....TSULORfEG74%3D
get yer media war on.

[FYRDUDE]

Just saw this.
Military base closures and budget reduction.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...-panetta-warns

[Kurtuleas]

The argument as to the NEED for expansion has been addressed many times here on Pirate..

I don't feel like typing it all out AGAIN, but here are some highlights to keep in mind:

The idea to expand 29 came out in the early 2,000's when the Marines were being used as a SECOND LAND ARMY...outside of their traditional role. When they were being used that way in Iraq, they needed to change how they trained. (Hence the need to expand 29)

But now, With the USMC Force Structure review, the Marines are getting back to their original role as a middle-weight force. (Also add in that they are cutting back big-time on their numbers)

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates is quoted saying, “The nation does not need a second land army, but rather forces that can deploy quickly and sustain themselves for a short period of time.”

The Marines do not want to be seen as a 2nd Army...they would end up losing funding becuase congress and the like would be saying, "why do we need 2 land Armies?"

The Marines have a "lane," a role... as middle weight force that reacts quickly and holds until the Army shows up. This is the role they want to get back to. The Commandant has made that VERY clear several times over.

If 29 were to expand...it would be bigger than Irwin. Why would our middle weight force need MORE room than our Army to train?

So the focus has changed, and so has the world Sit-rep. This is a DIRECT quote from the Commandant:

"But we see that’s probably what the world is going to look like for the next two decades. A lot more information there, but we think that’s going to be our backyard because this is primarily the littorals, because these are kind of the nasty missions and things that, quite honestly, don’t require 20,000 Marines on the ground. They may only require a Marine rifle company; they may require a training team to go in and help train border police of some of the nations that we want to help gird up and secure their borders."

We don't expect major actions. The arc of instability is in the Asia region in the littorals. Thats where we will have problems. And do you think the American public can really stomach another drawn out land-war where we go back to using the Marines as a second army?

You also have to remember that throughout most of the latter half of the 20th century, MEBs activated, deployed, and deactivated as needed. Standing MEBs were the exception rather than the rule.

AND:

The Marine Corps experimented with permanent MEB headquarters from 1985 to 1992. When downsizing and budget reductions required force
restructuring (same thing that is happening NOW!), the Marine Corps eliminated the standing MEB HQs and discontinued use of the MEB as a distinct Marine Air-Ground Task Force.



Bottomline: The expansion of 29 is based on an outdated training model from 2004-6 that does not take into account the new (actually OLD) focus of the Marines, the current political climate, and the current budget cutbacks.


Don't get me wrong, I support our troops and have nothing but respect for them, (Don't take my disagreement with the Marine Corps as something anti-military) but this expansion is not needed.

[aphantomduck]

Kurt... would you please dig up the quote about the role changing to that of a more water based effort that lands on beaches and moves forward?

[Mad Machinist]

The really sad part of this is the fact that military brass believes that you can actually fight and win in this kind of terrain. So they will fight for and most likely get want they want and send thousands of people do die based on a "hunch".

Don't get me wrong, our military is badass. But when the time comes for our general military to fight a "guerilla" warfare, the general military is SEVERELY lacking.

Guess how a bunch of camel and horse riding no accounts handed the Russians their asses with beat up bolt action rifles?

[Ram-on-Rocks!]

I train in 29 palms (aka hell hole) for 6 weeks every year in between my back-to-back deployments. I'm a Marine stationed on Camp Pendleton currently on deployment and have been in for a little over 7 years. The land use in 29 Palms is not managed correctly. The expansion is not needed. There is so much that is not occupied or has become bombing ranges. How many different bombing ranges do we need? How many of the Urban Enviornment training facilities have gotten used then left in the dust still taking up room? There are so many that are abondoned. We don't need more room, we need to clean up the room we have. BETTER MANAGEMENT!!!

We need places to let loose and enjoy the freedom which not just myself and my brethren provide. Remember our families suffer too. Missed holidays, birthdays, graduations, births...I could go on. Respect the freedom you have, don't take it for granted. Pray for the families that made sacrifices for this country. Enjoy it while you have it. Quit bitching. What have you done for your country lately? This isn't directed toward any one person. Just getting sick of all of the ignorant, opinionated general populace that seems to want to open their mouth about shit they dare not make sacrifices for.

[Shadow man]

Originally Posted by Ram-on-Rocks!

We don't need more room, we need to clean up the room we have. BETTER MANAGEMENT!!!

Unfortunately remediation work is extremely slow, expensive and not much of a priority. If it was a chem site, then it can take well over 10 years. That is at least level 2 gear. Some remediation on UXO sites are going on over 10 years now. Some sites are still untouched from WWII. They have mustard and all sorts of other agents in them.
So, yes you are correct. We need better management and a redirection of priorities instead of looking for clean sites to contaminate with UXO.
Remember though, these sites to be remediated are controlled by the Army Corp of Engineers, so we know how fast they get around to cleaning up messes.

So what I say, MAKE THEM CLEAN UP THE OLD SITES and don't let them look for NEW clean sites to litter with ordinance. Then JV will NOT be an issue.

[mikebrsa]

Just read this about 29 palms not sure how close it is to johnson valley


http://www.militarynewsnetwork.com/m...e/feb2011b.htm

[lodikrawlingkiller]

range 220... that place its freakin stupid huge. massive city complete with about 1800 role players. i hate that place with a fiery fucking passion..

[Jeff Knoll]

Thank you to the Marines that have replied in this thread for your dedication to serving our country. It is for you that I have dedicated so much time fighting this expansion. My father is a Marine, My Step father is a Marine, My grandfather is a Marine. They all told me when I was young they served so I would not have to. To this day I regret not serving my country.

In my eyes it is the greatest sign of respect I can give to the Marine Corps. Exercising the freedom to participate in government is something multiple generations of Marines have fought for. If I do anything less than exhaust every effort fighting base expansion all is for not.

We are taking the fight to the Marine Corps not as an enemy, but as a worthy opponent. Win Lose or draw, I know we gave them a hell of a fight, and anything less would lack the respect the greatest fighting force in the world deserves.

This is not over, we are still very much in the fight, and are starting to see some of our efforts come to fruition. With a wink at Sun Tzu "We have given them a golden bridge to retreat across".

I don't plan of stopping.

[duneburner]

I feel the same way Jeff but find it hard to put into words sometimes. Thanks for all of your hard work. btw I am sending in my final comments today, just putting on the final touches.

vinnie