Where is YOUR church?

[Kurtuleas]

Mine is on the trail in my rig.

I feel closest to God when I am in the mountains or on the trail with my family. Rock Crawling and other 4x4 motorsports is my religion. If the Rubicon is my Church, Johnson Valley and the Hammers are like the Vatican.

How about you??

The American Indian fights (and wins) for THIER sacred grounds. Shouldn't we?

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/housing/housing_rluipa2.php

§2000cc. Protection of land use as religious exercise

(1) Equal terms
No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation in a manner that treats a religious assembly or institution on less than equal terms with a nonreligious assembly or institution.

(2) Nondiscrimination
No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation that discriminates against any assembly or institution on the basis of religion or religious denomination.


(3) Exclusions and limits

No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation that—

(A) totally excludes religious assemblies from a jurisdiction; or

(B) unreasonably limits religious assemblies, institutions, or structures within a jurisdiction.

[Savage100]

Thats the same way with me. The Rubicon and anywhere up in the Sierra Nevada Mountains is an awesome place for me to think about God and enjoy the life He has given me. This is a really good idea to help fight the land use problems. I'm sure there are a lot more Christians out there.

[Broke That]

Originally Posted by Savage100

Thats the same way with me. The Rubicon and anywhere up in the Sierra Nevada Mountains is an awesome place for me to think about God and enjoy the life He has given me. This is a really good idea to help fight the land use problems. I'm sure there are a lot more Christians out there.

There are a lot of us Christians out here, but we are a huge minority (is that an oxymoron?) in the off-road world.
There is that group Extreme Off-Roaders For Christ...
But that is off topic for this thread isn't it?

[Hammer Hog]

Originally Posted by Broke That

There are a lot of us Christians out here, but we are a huge minority (is that an oxymoron?) in the off-road world.
There is that group Extreme Off-Roaders For Christ...
But that is off topic for this thread isn't it?

ExtremeWheelers4Christ...that'd be us.

And I'd say not off topic. But it easily could be

As a matter of fact, we have had numerous worship services out there...in God's country.

[RubiconJeepGuy]

My church is the great outdoors doing what I love doing: rock climbing and 4-wheeling. However, since I am an Atheist, I thank the people that make my freedom to enjoy this great land possible and have sacraficed their one and only life to make it possible for all of us...not god. Personally, I feel closest to the fresh air and wonderful landscape that has transformed over the past 6 billion years when I'm out there.

Being an Atheist, can't I enjoy the same great trails as everyone else while being free FROM religion? That's the only place I have left to retreat from religion right now.

[Kurtuleas]

The idea guys...

was that if we label JV and the Hammers a "Religious experience" for us and then use the above law me may be able to make sure the BLM could not give up the land to the Marines becuase it would restrict our access to our "sacred ground"

I was half-joking with this thread....

There are a lot of laws on the books and loop-holes when it comes to stuff like land-withdrawls.

If we could find just one little loop-hole, or find something that they missed in the land withdrawl...we may be able to find some standing in this mess.

[Rat70FJ]

I'm not a religious guy, but I regularly attend what I've always called "The Church of the Sierra Nevada"

[fermentor]

Originally Posted by Rat70FJ

I'm not a religious guy, but I regularly attend what I've always called "The Church of the Sierra Nevada"

Me too

[Rat70FJ]

Yea, I've been to that branch office a time or two myself, but i was refering to Rubicon, Fordyce, Hwy 88, Yosemite, etc.. All those places that kind of take your breath away.

[roundeye]

Originally Posted by Kurtuleas

The idea guys...

was that if we label JV and the Hammers a "Religious experience" for us and then use the above law me may be able to make sure the BLM could not give up the land to the Marines becuase it would restrict our access to our "sacred ground"

I was half-joking with this thread....

There are a lot of laws on the books and loop-holes when it comes to stuff like land-withdrawls.

If we could find just one little loop-hole, or find something that they missed in the land withdrawl...we may be able to find some standing in this mess.

I agree with this one. Good find. We have lost many of our close friends our in Gods country and have memorials there to prove this. I'm assuming that falls under sacred ground someway.

[broncdawg]

Hey Hammer hog! Howzit? Wheeling in God's country keeps me close to God!

Equally important is the History of westward migration and mining that is found on most all of our public lands. This history constitutes our Culture and although not as old as Native American culture, it is the culture of America that financed the industrial growth of this country and access to appreciate and study our culture should never be compromised.

If the environment survived 100 years and more of mining and road building, then simple motorized visitation of these cultural sites certainly isn't going to adversely impact the environment.
I'd like to think these arguments could be expanded on and achieve standing in this crazy battle, but when I've tried it in the past I'm met with rolling eyes and brief lip service.

[Bebe]

Originally Posted by Kurtuleas

The idea guys...

was that if we label JV and the Hammers a "Religious experience" for us and then use the above law me may be able to make sure the BLM could not give up the land to the Marines becuase it would restrict our access to our "sacred ground"

I was half-joking with this thread....

There are a lot of laws on the books and loop-holes when it comes to stuff like land-withdrawls.

If we could find just one little loop-hole, or find something that they missed in the land withdrawl...we may be able to find some standing in this mess.

If we can get a Cultural Anthropologist to Complete a Research study on our community, we could be established as a "Culture" and may be able to access some "Affirmative Action" type rights

Anybody got a Kid Majoring in Anthropology doing a Masters Thesis this year?

[Kurtuleas]

Been doing research on this.

Here's a book we need to read:

http://www.amazon.com/Worship-Wilder.../dp/0299180840


Worship and Wilderness
Culture, Religion, and Law in Public Lands Management
Lloyd Burton


How the intertwining influences of culture, religion, and law affect the management of public lands

Questions about land use, conservation, and preservation—already so perplexing and contentious—take on a new complexity, and greater urgency, when the land in question is understood as sacred. This is a view increasingly held, as adherents of mainstream religions come to recognize what indigenous peoples knew centuries ago—that the sacred inheres in nature itself. What such a trend means and how it involves the forces of culture, religion, and constitutional law (especially First Amendment clauses concerning the free exercise of religion) are considered with a remarkable breadth and depth of understanding in this important new work.

Drawing on case studies of national parks and monuments, national forests, and other public lands and resources, Lloyd Burton gives a clear and comprehensive account of how the intertwining influences of culture, religion, and law have affected the management of public lands and resources in the recent past and how they may do so in the future. In a unique and unprecedented way, his book weaves together teachings on nature and the sacred among indigenous and immigrant culture groups in the United States; the relevant constitutional history of religion and government action; and analysis of contemporary conflicts over culture, religion, and public lands management. As such, Worship and Wilderness is essential reading not only for public land managers and environmental policymakers but also for anyone interested in the growing significance of religious interests in the use of resources that constitute our national commons and our common natural heritage.

"Very original. Burton has brought together many diverse sources in primarily law and religion to present an analysis of the current state of human rights and the political problems of the environment. Nothing is as comprehensive as this book in weaving the two strands together."—Vine Deloria Jr., author of Custer Died for Your Sins

Lloyd Burton is associate professor and director of the Program in Environmental Policy, Management, and Law in the Graduate School of Public Affairs, University of Colorado at Denver. He is co-founder of the Spirit Rock Meditation Center in northern California.

For more information contact our publicity manager, phone: (608) 263-0734, email: publicity@uwpress.wisc.edu

[Mad Dog 1]

Hey, that title doesnt sound right.I am finding this thread very interesting, it is kind of like changing chanels from one post to the next. I think the point is that we can use religion as a means to save our beloved Johnson Valley.But then again,it could be a platform to promote Christianity, or maybe it is both.OK maybe not specifically Christianity, just the fact that being out there can be a spiritual expierience. Oh, I forgot about the title,first of all I am a Catholic Christian and always make time to hit MAss in Yucca Valley( THe closest Catholic CHurch) when I am out in JV. By the way it is hardly paradise, and saying Johnson VAlley and Yosimite Valley in the Same breath should be against the law. Of coarse Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,or should I say it is Relative. Some might even dare to say that Religion is relative or even Truth itself for that matter. Ha,I feel sorry for that poor guy!
Are you feeling inflamed yet? By the way I hate long posts also,I'm sure I have already lost some of you so I will shut up soon.All who know me and wheel with me know that I am no saint and I have alot of growing to do spiritually and otherwise but using religion to save a piece of land seems wrong.Besides when was the last time the US Government did anything in the name of Christianity?Lets face it public opinion carries some weight when it is near election time,but in the big picture FOJV is just spec.( I could be wrong)
I dont want to undersestimate the power of the people ,it has over come greater odds before but the real motivator in these types of battles is CASH and who has the most of it. Just look at the kind of Govenment officials that are in office due to that factor and nothing else. Somebody stop me!

[Air Ride]

My God is a rock.

[zuk1988]

I would jump on the god train to save JV

[Hammer Hog]

It's definitely going to take a lot of PRAYER...and then some!!

[Kurtuleas]

I know everyone thinks I am nuts for pitching this idea...

but we gotta stop thinking "left" brained and start thinking "right" brained to come up with ideas "out of the box" to stop this. There HAS to be some loophole or angle that we can work.

I have said it several times here on Pirate. For many people this 4x4 thing is just a hobby, but for a lot of us here in this forum, including myself, it is WAY more than that. It's a lifestyle, it's a culture, it's a religion. For me, not a day goes by where I do not think of camping and wheeling with my family and friends. My whole life revolves around those trips.

If you spend thousands of dollars to build a rig that can run the Hammers, along with an RV, toy-hauler or trailer, then spend countless hours on that lakebed with your family and friends, and even more hours wrenching on your junk.....It's more than a hobby. It's not like you are collecting fawkin stamps.

We need to out-think them. We need to find novel ways to fight this. Lord (Lord of the Rocks) knows that the way we have been fighting in the past has NOT been effective.

[5.9 ANDY]

for me, its when i fishing at my favorite place in the world.

salt point. CA.

[zuk1988]

Ask my wife, 4 wheelin has put my relationship on the rocks more than once,it is my life and I will give it all up for it.Sad but true.This place is worth the drive over and over again!

[Mad Dog 1]

Originally Posted by zuk1988

Ask my wife, 4 wheelin has put my relationship on the rocks more than once,it is my life and I will give it all up for it.Sad but true.This place is worth the drive over and over again!

Ok my wife would probably say the same thing,that is one of the reasons it is difficult to stay married. If your wife said it was her or wheeling ,what would you say? That is a really sad question,I would struggle with it,I guess I would say that it was not fair on her part to suggest such an ultimatem. May be her very suggestion would prove that she doesnt love you and that she doesnt want you to have something you really enjoy.

[Kurtuleas]

Huh...

Just the opposite for many of us up here on the Rubicon and the like...

My wife loves to wheel and camp. So do my kids. It is one way that we can all spend quality time together.

[zuk1988]

I guess I'm saying she knows 4 wheeling is a big part of my life and I would do any thing to keep doing it,she and my son come on almost every trip I go on too.She doesn't want to see the Hammers go away either.

[desertPOS]

I think it might be easy to see this thread as how can we pretend that this is a religion in order to use it to keep land open. BUT, I think it's more than that. Replace 'religion' with 'way of life.' Motorized access to land is a way of life for many, especially on this board. WAY OF LIFE, not just a hobby. Call it religion or whatever you want, but a culture has been built around what we do. I don't think we'd even be trying to spin offroading as something it's not, just identifying it in different terms. The truth is, this IS a way of life for so many people.

I also think it's fair to compare to the mentality of surfing. Think about what surfers/so many others feel about surfing. Closeness to God, closeness to the earth, etc. are different ways that surfing is viewed... Imagine if beaches/surf spots started getting shut down permanently and what a violent opposition there would be... The surf industry as a whole would be getting involved and it would be a huge deal (and very public I'm sure as well). Why can't offroading be viewed this way, as it is certainly the case for many involved?

On a personal note, I just spent the last few days backpacking in some pretty torrential rains - dealing w/ flash floods and some pretty heavy river crossings - and I knew it would be like that before I even went out there. We didn't use offroad vehicles to get out there (one of the few backcountry/camping situations I'm in every year where I'm NOT in my rig), but it was an experience and a half, and I'm glad we went out there. Most of our friends thought we were nuts. It's all about getting out in the middle of nowhere - dealing w/ the elements, discovering new places, seeing new sites and pushing yourself to another level. I went to the Rubicon this summer for the first time ever, and it was an amazing trip travelling through the mountains up there, seeing things from a perspective that many never will.

Point is, maybe we're not a 'religion' per se, but there's definitely more to us than stamp collectors (to use analogy from above). I think the idea being presented here is that there is alot more to offroading, and maybe we should start trying to see it from that perspective a little bit more. If we could re-identify what this culture is about (not just hobby but way of life), maybe we could represent who we are and the importance of keeping land open a little better...

just my $.02

[broncdawg]

Right on Kurtuleas. I've been podering this idea for a long time based on the idea that our cultural history (mining, logging, etc) and now 4 wheeling, should be worthy of the same kind of preferential yet reasonable treatment that historic native american lands get when Indians claim a need to access those lands.

There is precedent in law for access to cultural sites and it seems like a case coild be made for that in many areas threatened for closure.

Praise God for the small successes we have had preserving our access and I'll be praying (and working) to achieve more and bigger victories in this important battle.

Behind you 110 percent!