Trail ratings of 1-10

[RE:Todd]

Originally Posted by maxyedor

This is why I hate numeric trail ratings. What type of truck/buggy are they based on? If Claw is a 2, what's a trail like Odessa (taking the bypass around Gatekeeper) rate? 1? Making something like Miller Jeep Trail a 0? and Cleghorn a -1? Now we're all mixed up.

Which is why this post is BS. You're either ready and trying, or your not!!!! Numbers do not make a difference!!

[Hammer Hog]

Looks like you'll just have to go out and rate each trail and tell us what you think. Kinda like the testicle-factor, if they retreat 3", well then it's a 3, and so on.

[catfish<><]

If anything it would be interesting to have a list, easiest to hardest, for folks to work there way in, a place to start as it were.

bob

www.extremewheelers4christ.org

[Eezee]

I am from VV4W and found and built most of the original trails(more trails to come). I agree that 1 to 5 doesn't justify some of that stuff out there and isn't sufficient to describe such a diverse set of trails. For example, if 80% are all 5 or 5+ then we need 5+++ to decribe BD and others. If we describe a 1 to 10 system for use at the Hammers, so what, it's a Hammer thing and that's where most things evolve anyway.
Maybe you want to use Sledge(the absolute original hammer trail and still tough) as a 5 and judge everything else above or below that. This would leave room(6 to 10) for tougher trails and better rigs for future sport evolution.
Keep in mind that would make Claw around a 2?

[WIKD 281]

Originally Posted by Eezee

I am from VV4W and found and built most of the original trails(more trails to come). I agree that 1 to 5 doesn't justify some of that stuff out there and isn't sufficient to describe such a diverse set of trails. For example, if 80% are all 5 or 5+ then we need 5+++ to decribe BD and others. If we describe a 1 to 10 system for use at the Hammers, so what, it's a Hammer thing and that's where most things evolve anyway.
Maybe you want to use Sledge(the absolute original hammer trail and still tough) as a 5 and judge everything else above or below that. This would leave room(6 to 10) for tougher trails and better rigs for future sport evolution.
Keep in mind that would make Claw around a 2?

:SALUTE:

Thanks for all your hard work Sir. I as well as many others enjoy the trails you guys broke very much and hope that the hammers will stay open forever.

[minam44]

Originally Posted by Hammer Hog

Looks like you'll just have to go out and rate each trail and tell us what you think. Kinda like the testicle-factor, if they retreat 3", well then it's a 3, and so on.

Make it more like a pucker factor rating.

[theydontstop]

If Backdoor is a 5+++, then we already have 6's, 7's, and 8's out here no problem. It's all relative. In JV, that's a "hard" trail. Out here that waterfall is a just another "easy" obstacle on over 1/2 the trails we run. Different terrains, different ideals, and rigs that are usually built to what they normally wheel. That's why rating systems suck. Like someone else said, either you're ready to run, or you're not. More than likely you'd be running any given trail with someone who has done it before and they can give you an idea. It also comes with how confident you are in your driving skills and your rig.

[Devil Dog]

Originally Posted by theydontstop

If Backdoor is a 5+++, then we already have 6's, 7's, and 8's out here no problem. It's all relative. In JV, that's a "hard" trail. Out here that waterfall is a just another "easy" obstacle on over 1/2 the trails we run.

oh here we go... our trails are tougher than your trails.. blah blah blah.. if yours is a 5 then ours is a 6..

but seriously, like stated above, 1 - 10 is a good base system to go off of, all you need is simple guidelines, 1 = stock vehicle (or whatever) 10 being moon buggy or what not and 5 is something else.. all trails could be put into these catagories with the obvious footnotes of changes and what not.. i'm not saying we need them or want them, but i think ratings have their place for the newer wheelers in giving them general ideas.. for most "hardcore" guys, i am sure ratings are never looked at, unless it's to justify towing your junk that far to drive what?

[theydontstop]

Originally Posted by Devil Dog

oh here we go... our trails are tougher than your trails.. blah blah blah.. if yours is a 5 then ours is a 6..

but seriously, like stated above, 1 - 10 is a good base system to go off of, all you need is simple guidelines, 1 = stock vehicle (or whatever) 10 being moon buggy or what not and 5 is something else.. all trails could be put into these catagories with the obvious footnotes of changes and what not.. i'm not saying we need them or want them, but i think ratings have their place for the newer wheelers in giving them general ideas.. for most "hardcore" guys, i am sure ratings are never looked at, unless it's to justify towing your junk that far to drive what?

Then why rate the buggy trails? If it's an already rated trail, then fine. If it's not rated and a buggy trail, newbies don't need to worry about it.

[tjmark]

Originally Posted by theydontstop

If Backdoor is a 5+++, then we already have 6's, 7's, and 8's out here no problem. It's all relative. In JV, that's a "hard" trail. Out here that waterfall is a just another "easy" obstacle on over 1/2 the trails we run. Different terrains, different ideals, and rigs that are usually built to what they normally wheel. That's why rating systems suck. Like someone else said, either you're ready to run, or you're not. More than likely you'd be running any given trail with someone who has done it before and they can give you an idea. It also comes with how confident you are in your driving skills and your rig.

In Jv that is not a hard trail. Just the only trail everyone shows up to want to make... Jv has crazy stuff just not where the mainstream go..

[Hammer Hog]

The Hammers are like no other. Just knowing you're going to wheel here means you are in for some serious wheeling..."Like no other!"
In my opinion, putting numeric ratings at the Hammers is kind of redundant, but may have it's place for the newb as said above. Most all the trails are known as Hardcore...period. When something new is put in, (if) when asking how hard it is, it's usually compared to an existing trail and such. Then just go do it.
I'm asked all the time what trails I recommend. The answer is given when I know how capable and experienced they are. Usually they want to do something "easy." I can't tell you how many times Claw is where I send them.
But if they're built for it, I sent them to Sledge and so on.
Going 1-10 may be a bit too wide of a range, unless you use 1 as a dirt road, and 10 as winch sections.

I do technical rock climbing as well, and there's what is know as the Yosemite Decimal System . Check out the link and try to understand it. It's fairly simple and could be used similarly for what's being attempted here. ...just a thought.

[theydontstop]

Originally Posted by tjmark

In Jv that is not a hard trail. Just the only trail everyone shows up to want to make... Jv has crazy stuff just not where the mainstream go..

I know there's harder(and will be running them soon), but if a JV person is saying BD is a 5+++, I don't think so. As I said it's all relative. I've been out there and will still stand by what I said. Have you been out here? Leave the 1-5 trail rating system of the common trails for newbies/average wheelers. The buggy stuff is on a different level and if you have a buggy, then you know what's what and what you can do. Or atleast you should have a pretty good idea.

[Easy Rick]

Originally Posted by theydontstop

I know there's harder(and will be running them soon), but if a JV person is saying BD is a 5+++, I don't think so. As I said it's all relative. I've been out there and will still stand by what I said. Have you been out here? Leave the 1-5 trail rating system of the common trails for newbies/average wheelers. The buggy stuff is on a different level and if you have a buggy, then you know what's what and what you can do. Or atleast you should have a pretty good idea.

The last bunch of responses, is why I don't rate trails, its all open to interpretation, and I am so disconnected with average trail rigs, that my idea of Easy, is different than a guy with a Jeep on 40's. If you think backdoor is simply a 5, or 6 at best, then your taking the easy line. Try all the way to the right, and report back when your done.

IMO, 1-5 should be for full bodied rigs, and 5-10 for buggies. Sure you can blur those lines as well...................interpretation. But that at least it gives a rough estimate on what your rig can do, without the chance of serious body damage, or catastrophic mechanical failure. .02

Funny story;

I led trails for our local club a couple years back, and we had just opened a new trail. I said it was buggy only, but we had gotten Jeeps through there as well, so that was deemed to be a 5 rating. I protested, and lost. During our morning of grouping,................ I approached a guy waitng in line, and tried to convey what his Completely restored full bodied rig was in for, and he let me know that he was no rookie, and knew what he was doing, been to all the 5 rated trails in the west, and his buddies all backed him. I said alllllllrighty then, and within 2/3 of the trail, his rig was ruined externaly, along with some other overachievers. He never said a word to me, but later he let every one know I should never lead a run again, as that was not a 5, more like a 10. Apparently some folks use a different scale in different spots, we stop at five!

Careful what ya wish for, you just might get it.

Rick.

[Hammer Hog]

Originally Posted by theydontstop

...it's all relative....
The buggy stuff is on a different level...

Exactly!
That's why rating the Hammers is redundant.
The idea is in good intention I'm sure, but w/ such variation factors, it's going to be next to impossible to give each trail a universal numeric rating. Having a rating system exclusive for the Hammers will never catch on for that reason alone. Using the more common "trail" rating system will not work here due to the wide range of variables as stressed above.

But going back to the first original post, if you are wanting a general consensus on a 1-10 rating of difficulty based from experience between JUST the Hammer trails, that's one thing, but for an actual rating system to be used/implemented won't work in my opinion. And again, what ratings I may give today would be different than how I would have rated it from last year...due to the continuing changes due to traffic/flash-flooding/stackers/etc...

[Mustard Dog]

This topic is dumb.

The Hammers are not Moab where every trail stays the same year after year. At the Hammers the rocks get shuffled around year after year, either by nature or the anti-nature, stacking.

It's the fuckin Hammers, just go wheel it, you might get spanked, you might blow on through without a reverse. Whatever it may be, enjoy your time out there.

[Easy Rick]

Originally Posted by Mustard Dog

This topic is dumb.

The Hammers are not Moab where every trail stays the same year after year. At the Hammers the rocks get shuffled around year after year, either by nature or the anti-nature, stacking.

It's the fuckin Hammers, just go wheel it, you might get spanked, you might blow on through without a reverse. Whatever it may be, enjoy your time out there.

So what trails should I run in my 90 YJ with a bad fuel pump? Its Open on 31's, but I know what I am doing, cause I have lost the last two KOH races with style!

Your right MD, my scale was dumb. It should be 1-3 for IFS rigs, 3-5 for full bodied, and 5-10 for the rest of us!


Rick.

[Mustard Dog]

But I want my trails to go to 11, it's 1 more

[theydontstop]

Originally Posted by Mustard Dog

This topic is dumb.

The Hammers are not Moab where every trail stays the same year after year. At the Hammers the rocks get shuffled around year after year, either by nature or the anti-nature, stacking.

It's the fuckin Hammers, just go wheel it, you might get spanked, you might blow on through without a reverse. Whatever it may be, enjoy your time out there.

[Devil Dog]

Originally Posted by Mustard Dog

It's the fuckin Hammers, just go wheel it, you might get spanked, you might blow on through without a reverse. Whatever it may be, enjoy your time out there.

I couldn't agree more.. after spending 12 years on the east coast.. only dreaming of this place.. i now get to live it.. and all you will hear me say is the hammers is the greatest place on earth..

but for the love of pete, turn the damn wind off will you..

[Easy Rick]

Originally Posted by Mustard Dog

But I want my trails to go to 11, it's 1 more

Oh shit, another overachiever!

My scale will forever go to 11 cause, MD is my hero! 10-11 will only be passable with MD spotting you!

Rick.

[tjmark]

Originally Posted by theydontstop

I know there's harder(and will be running them soon), but if a JV person is saying BD is a 5+++, I don't think so. As I said it's all relative. I've been out there and will still stand by what I said. Have you been out here? Leave the 1-5 trail rating system of the common trails for newbies/average wheelers. The buggy stuff is on a different level and if you have a buggy, then you know what's what and what you can do. Or atleast you should have a pretty good idea.

I hope to make it out there some day...

YouTube - Mark BD

[WIKD 281]

Originally Posted by Mustard Dog

This topic is dumb.

The Hammers are not Moab where every trail stays the same year after year. At the Hammers the rocks get shuffled around year after year, either by nature or the anti-nature, stacking.

It's the fuckin Hammers, just go wheel it, you might get spanked, you might blow on through without a reverse. Whatever it may be, enjoy your time out there.

Thanks for your input

[WIKD 281]

Originally Posted by Hammer Hog

Exactly!
That's why rating the Hammers is redundant.
The idea is in good intention I'm sure, but w/ such variation factors, it's going to be next to impossible to give each trail a universal numeric rating. Having a rating system exclusive for the Hammers will never catch on for that reason alone. Using the more common "trail" rating system will not work here due to the wide range of variables as stressed above.

But going back to the first original post, if you are wanting a general consensus on a 1-10 rating of difficulty based from experience between JUST the Hammer trails, that's one thing, but for an actual rating system to be used/implemented won't work in my opinion. And again, what ratings I may give today would be different than how I would have rated it from last year...due to the continuing changes due to traffic/flash-flooding/stackers/etc...

What I was looking for was a general consensus on a 1-10 scale. Doesnt have to be something with every technical little thing because I agree, its impossible to give it an exact rating. After the next flash flood things change. I agree.
There will be lots of people coming out for KOH 2010 and im sure a lot of people will be wondering where to start. I figured I would help out the wheelin' community but I seem to be getting a lot of opposition.

Thanks for your help!

[RE:Todd]

Back to what I said, if you're ready, run them. If you're not, then don't. There's not a rating system that works for the Hammers, because they change every day. How else do you explain people cleaning up on Sledge one day and having their asses handed to them the next day. You can apply that to every trail out there. And if they are coming out for KOH, they know what they're in for!!

I agree with MD, turn them up to 11

[theydontstop]

Originally Posted by tjmark

I hope to make it out there some day...

YouTube - Mark BD

Nice rig and climb