pros and cons for the 300 tdi

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by Agrover

Serg, I pretty much doubt that the 200TDI was designed in Austria. Maybe the 300 was. The 200s ancestry is given away by the location of the brake vacuum pump, and other external casting features that clearly allude to it being evolved from the old 2- 2 1/4 litre Deisel and petrol engines, with the addition of 5 main bearing crank and extra ribbiing in the crankcase region .
Bill.

I read somewhere that Ricardo did the work to redesign the 2.5td into the 200tdi.
Which makes perfect sense, can't be arsed looking for a link though.

[DasLandRoverMan]

Sounds right.

The 300 isn't that big a departure from the 200 either, they share a lot of parts, even the same basic block architecture.

I can see how cooling problems would be an issue in Australia, but in my experience (UK) they're fine, but will bite you in the ass if you ignore a developing problem.

The lump in my 95 MY Disco has done about 240K miles now, and still going well.
It had a head gasket failure last year, after it dropped the water pump (changed for another which failed after 200 miles) and finally blew out a bleed screw whilst towing 3.5 tonnes and drove home with occasional stops to top up the water.
Other than that, it's been a solid motor, and has continued to be since doing the head.

A good 300 with a VNT kit would likely be an excellent conversion, and probably able to break run at a fairly steady 35mpg.

A mate with a 200 Tdi Disco reckons he's averaging 36-38mpg depending on what he's doing.

I hadn't heard about the guy doing the diesel V8 in Australia, although I do wonder if he'd have had the same problems as Perkins had in the 80's when they tried to do the same?
Google the 'Iceberg' Diesel V8 and you'll see what I mean.

[uninformed]

The 200tdi has a completely different head, different intake manifold and turbo, different timing arangement....so yes there is some difference. I bet the HS 2.8tgv share almost the same amount of parts with the 300tdi as the 200tdi does...but they both are not a 300tdi

[uninformed]

yes I am aware of the Iceberg. Plenty of guys in oz and around the world for that matter dont bother with the internet. Some of these guys dont need it and are right at home designing and building stuff from scratch....to quite a high level.

[uninformed]

Originally Posted by Dougal

I read somewhere that Ricardo did the work to redesign the 2.5td into the 200tdi.
Which makes perfect sense, can't be arsed looking for a link though.

Thanks Dougal, I cant remeber where I got the Austria info, but the guy was fairly confident and had alot of other info on the 300tdi and HS2.8tgv....either way the main point is LR didnt do the intial design for the 200tdi...in a way this is why it was good. Look at all the LR engines before...and then the 300tdi. The 200 has faired alot better

[Agrover]

Originally Posted by uninformed

There is a guy here in Oz that started to convert a rover v8 into a diesel, something about tdi pistons and heads. He changed jobs and lost interest AFAIK...btw this guy was capable of doing this and doing it well.

There was a bloke at the Royal melbourne show a few years ago trying to sell shares in a company he was forming called Green Deisel Corp. He had a modified Rover V8 conveted to high pressure injection deisel at 15:1 compression ratio. Haven't heard anything since about the company.
Ag.

[uninformed]

Dont think thats the same guy Bill. The guy I am referring to was told to me by TDiRick. He was one of the contract engineers that did some of the development work on the Au Mil 110's....

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by uninformed

no worries buddy, btw your 200tdi has some better designs than the 300, good luck buying a new head for it though. England/UK is alot different to Aus and USA as far as conditions for engine life and performance go......Now go back to sipping your cup of tea

Actually as I scrolled down the page I was indeed sipping a cup of tea

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by uninformed

Hi Handbuilt, from the research I have done and read I have some info. Now much could be called speculation, but it is coming from LR mechanincs here that work on these day in day out so seeing a pattern. I have also spoken to a few well respected race engine builders that also happen to be LR enthusiests. One of which owned a LR wrecking/parts and service company. He is now retired and builds and runs his land speed record vintage race bike (current record holder for class)

one thing straight off the bat is the timing gears. 200tdi are cast, nicely made and strong. The 300tdi is more a pressed tin type, which is much more prone to deflection under belt tension and therefore belt problems result. This is one reason LR revised the belt tension (made less) on the 300tdis after the early ones(300tdi) were failing. The 200tdi also had less power than the 300tdi. Given both these engines mass, materials used, quality of design and QC it seems the life of a 200tdi can also be related to the power out put and intern heat and stress it is putting out. I believe the 200tdi was actually designed in Austria and LR pretty much ran with that. Then for the 300tdi, did there own in house changes. Many small ones which all add up. Head gaskets are a very well known problem here for the 300tdi. Now if you add more boost or power what do you think the end result will be? Gasket material type has been trialed and results show using the metal type on skimmed heads and decked blocks, while using the composite type on just a change over (non machining)

more than one 300tdi porous block has resulted in engine failure. Big end bearings in what seems 98 build date...(I had one, as did a mate, he caught his...mine was fubared)

The engine cooling is marginal at best and required very good up keep, most in the know here are doing timing belt changes at 70-80k km and pulling the rad, removing end tanks and rodding out. 12 monthly coolant changes are recommened as well.

If I was running a tdi again, I would run a 2.65-3 inch mandrel bent free flow exhaust. no pump or turbo uping, new temp gauge, new egt gauge. 5000km oil and filter changes. 82c cracking temp thermostat or even a 78c if you can get one. Braze a coin or what ever over the baffle hole inside the rad.

I now have a 2.8tgv, this is a nicer better built engine and even after I tried to completely destroy it it faired ok (considering)

There is NO way in hell I would bore out a 200 or 300tdi!!!! not enough mass there!

And If I was in the "good ol USA" I would not fuck around with import shit, when homebrew is 1/3 the price 4 x the power and every red neck can work on....

btw I can understand why most would not take my ramblings with much clout, But one person I know who is very educated in both theroy and practical experience is Bush65

HG problems do not seem prevalent in the UK on 300Tdi's, but maybe your climate extremes help cause this??

Cooling is the same/similar on both 200 and 300's, I've not know this to be a real issue, not on stock Tdi's anyhow. If anything many complain of them being undercooled. Indeed my 300Tdi D90 took a friggin age to warm up, much much longer than any other vehicle I've owned (and I've owned quite a few).


One thing though, you are wrong about the power. 200 and 300's make the same power, both 111hp in a Disco. A Defender is rated at 107hp for the 200 though.

But overall I agree, I think you'd have to be a special kind of nutter to spend a small fortune importing a Tdi to the USA just to save a pittance on fuel and end up with less power and less performance.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Agrover

Serg, I pretty much doubt that the 200TDI was designed in Austria. Maybe the 300 was. The 200s ancestry is given away by the location of the brake vacuum pump, and other external casting features that clearly allude to it being evolved from the old 2- 2 1/4 litre Deisel and petrol engines, with the addition of 5 main bearing crank and extra ribbiing in the crankcase region .
Bill.

Yep I'd agree with this. I don't personally know the origins of the development of the 200Tdi, but it's clear to see its linage being from the 2.25 petrol, to the 2.25 diesel to the 2.5NAD to the 2.5TD (indirect injection 89hp in the 90/110) to the Turbo Direct Injection (TDI) 200 version and the latter evolved slightly more refined variant the 300 TDI and the last engine of this lineage before moving to the all new at the time OHC TD5.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by DasLandRoverMan

A mate with a 200 Tdi Disco reckons he's averaging 36-38mpg depending on what he's doing.

No offense, but either:

-they are lying
-can't work out mpg correctly
-are using dodgy inaccurate made up figures
-Or it's parked in a field and slowly rolling downhill


Fill up and sit at a steady 45-50mph (on normal road tyres) on a level dual carriage way and yes I believe if driven carefully enough you could attain this kind of mpg.

Do anything that involves accelerating, stopping or driving on normal roads and you won't likely be averaging that sort of mpg.

Remember the Tdi is rated at 27mpg in a Disco!!

[DasLandRoverMan]

He's originally from Huddersfield so knows a bit about being frugal.
I don't have reason to disbelieve him, but think what you will.

As an aside, my 300 Auto Disco averages 26's, my manual 110 will average 32's.

Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton

Yep I'd agree with this. I don't personally know the origins of the development of the 200Tdi, but it's clear to see its linage being from the 2.25 petrol, to the 2.25 diesel to the 2.5NAD to the 2.5TD (indirect injection 89hp in the 90/110) to the Turbo Direct Injection (TDI) 200 version and the latter evolved slightly more refined variant the 300 TDI and the last engine of this lineage before moving to the all new at the time OHC TD5.

At one point (when the 2.5 NAD was still an option) the NA diesels were basically 200 Tdi's with the older head and Lucas pump, as it worked out simpler to build the engines like that.
Then they discovered it was even cheaper and easier to put the 300 Tdi in everything.

[uninformed]

300bhp/ton "HG problems do not seem prevalent in the UK on 300Tdi's, but maybe your climate extremes help cause this??"

Mate, where I live it is so not an extreme....many many places around the world that see a much larger temp difference from Min to Max over a year. On top of that my Max in summer would be say 35c this year and that was the odd day....think more along the lines of 28-32c here this summer (more on the 28c side of things.....

[Agrover]

Originally Posted by uninformed

Dont think thats the same guy Bill. The guy I am referring to was told to me by TDiRick. He was one of the contract engineers that did some of the development work on the Au Mil 110's....

I googled the company.Green Deisel Corp Serg. They appear to be well established now in Victoria AUS and are apparently specialists at designing 2 stage fuel injection systems for existing deisel engines. Couldn't see any reference to the Rover V8 they had on display at the Royal show back then though.
AG.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton

No offense, but either:

-they are lying
-can't work out mpg correctly
-are using dodgy inaccurate made up figures
-Or it's parked in a field and slowly rolling downhill


Fill up and sit at a steady 45-50mph (on normal road tyres) on a level dual carriage way and yes I believe if driven carefully enough you could attain this kind of mpg.

Do anything that involves accelerating, stopping or driving on normal roads and you won't likely be averaging that sort of mpg.

Remember the Tdi is rated at 27mpg in a Disco!!

I have never owned a 200/300tdi nor a disco. But some honest people I know have. The common theme is under 8 litres/100km on a road trip.

[Bush65]

My understanding is that the 200Tdi was a development of the earlier indirect injection rover diesel. I remember that the 200 in the name 200Tdi refers to the number of changes that were made. Tdi of course stands for turbo direct injection (as coined by VW).

I don't know if rover subcontracted design work out to an Austrian company or not. I do understand that Ricardo (world class engine designers from UK who contract to many large engine manufacturers and hold many patents) did the design for the direct injection changes and Bosch would have been heavily involved with the fuel injection side.

I also believe that rover transferred manufacture of the later 300Tdi's to International in Brazil, possibly after they stopped using the 300Tdi in Europe, but not all other countries. This formed the basis of the 2.8 produced by the same Brazilian company.

Any difference in stock power between 200 and 300 Tdi's is down to change in stock boost pressure. 300Tdi has 2 stage injectors, only for more refinement and possibly reduced NOx.

IMHO both 200 and 300 Tdi's have issues (200Tdi less so). I wouldn't have one again for quids.

[Agrover]

Originally Posted by Bush65

My understanding is that the 200Tdi was a development of the earlier indirect injection rover diesel. I remember that the 200 in the name 200Tdi refers to the number of changes that were made. Tdi of course stands for turbo direct injection (as coined by VW).

I don't know if rover subcontracted design work out to an Austrian company or not. I do understand that Ricardo (world class engine designers from UK who contract to many large engine manufacturers and hold many patents) did the design for the direct injection changes and Bosch would have been heavily involved with the fuel injection side.

I also believe that rover transferred manufacture of the later 300Tdi's to International in Brazil, possibly after they stopped using the 300Tdi in Europe, but not all other countries. This formed the basis of the 2.8 produced by the same Brazilian company.

Any difference in stock power between 200 and 300 Tdi's is down to change in stock boost pressure. 300Tdi has 2 stage injectors, only for more refinement and possibly reduced NOx.

IMHO both 200 and 300 Tdi's have issues (200Tdi less so). I wouldn't have one again for quids.

The way I heard it John, the 200 described the torque output rounded off at 200lbft. the 300 described the number of changes from the 200.
I just picked up my refrigerator today after repair, and the proprietor of the company has a 110 defender 200tdi tray back that he claims has clocked up 600,000 km on original engine with just rings, bearings and injector overhaul.

[Puffdragon]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_engines

Says 208 changes

[Agrover]

Originally Posted by Puffdragon

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_engines

Says 208 changes

One would struggle to come up with much more than 200 individual components on a 200 or 300 TdI engine, even counting every casting, shaft,sprocket, pulley, piston, rod,valve, spring, collet, nut bolt, stud, washer, circlip, etc etc.
So the 2 engines must be completely different.
AG.

[uninformed]

Bill, my memory tells me from LR articals and publications that the 200 was for torque...like you said 195ft/lb. The engine code name was Gemini I think?

John, from what I know LR sold the rights of the 300tdi to International in Sth America. LR had them continue to build the 2.5tdi for their 3rd world country vehicles (this all happend when LR went to the TD5) as the TD5 would not be suitable for the fuel and workshops in these parts of the world. International then developed the HS2.8tgv for their own range. It has a different block, different crank, conrods, pistons, timing gears, timing belt (stronger, same otherwise) different oilcooler, different vacuum pump, differnt exhaust manifold and turbo, different injectors different rear main seal and different gasket and seals. But is still vary similar to a 300tdi.

Sounds like Ricardo may have been the company that did the developing for the 200tdi. But that is still the same point I was making, that is LR go to said contractor and say we want X engine based around this exsisting structure and size....LR end up with a pretty ok engine by their standards....then LR decides to change/refine it in house for the 300tdi and takes as many backward steps as forward....now there is a familiar patern

[BigBlueToy]

Originally Posted by Mr Bridger

It seems that all these discussions on diesels in a NA Land Rover end up the same.

(whine) My V8 is broken and was killing me at the pumps. I want a diesel engine!

(More whining) why can't North America have a decent, modern diesel that does not weigh 1,000lbs available? All I have to choose from are ancient, knackered delivery truck specials, hard to find imports of dubious merit or domestic huge displacement torque monsters.

(Wishing) If I were not in North America I would have a ________ diesel and it would be cool, everyone would tell me that it is cool and I could drive huge distances on very little fuel. I would also run used veg oil, cause that's hardly effort at all to make and practically free! Plus, if I get a turbo diesel it will be really powerful! Cause everyone knows that turbo's make stuff really powerful......right?

(Realization of cost and effort) IT'S GONNA COST HOW MUCH?

(Reality) Sod it, either I will rebuild the Rover V8 or throw a small block in it.

And all around the world guys are swapping Chev small blocks into Diesel 4x4s because they desperately crave the power and speed of American trucks.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by BigBlueToy

And all around the world guys are swapping Chev small blocks into Diesel 4x4s because they desperately crave the power and speed of American trucks.

Really?

We have guys here putting Lexus V8's into toyotas, but that's because the toyota 2.4 diesel is a slug and in turbo form a danger to itself. We have Nissan guys fitting nissan V8's or turbocharging their petrol 6's for competition use.
Small block chev swaps aren't something I've heard much about since the 80's and early 90's.

The small block chevs days appear to be a long time past.

[Buckon37s]

Jeebus people.

Pros- Everything minus power

Cons- Not enough power.

If you can live with 140hp, it's a fantastic motor. If you can't, don't get it. Done.

[uninformed]

Originally Posted by Bush65

IMHO both 200 and 300 Tdi's have issues (200Tdi less so). I wouldn't have one again for quids.

If you read nothing else in this thread, read above. This is from someone with good personal expericence with said engine and with more technical experience than most of us.

[telius86]

I don't read all the thread but I own a 300 tdi defender with 4.11 and 35's, the engine has an vnt and allisport intercooler, and the fuel pump converted to 2.8's fuel pump. and it's very good. enought power for me and a lot of torque.

on the road with 1.4 transfer his speed it's around 110km/h and with 1.2 (from disco or range) 120 or 125 it's fine