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Old 02-14-2004, 09:13 AM   #1 (permalink)
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on board air feedback

After searching quite a bit here, and elsewhere....I've decided I can manage an onboard air system based upon the sanden sd-510 compressor I already have(ditching the A/C that I don't use anyway).
It looked like serious one installed the setup as did strange rover and dielucas.

What I'm looking for is feedback as to whether the Sanden and or air tanks you chose were up to the task.
The goal is to air tires up, and to occasionally use air tools like an impact gun.
The oiling is a concern for me.
You don't want oil in the tires, yet it seems to be OK in the air tools. Someone suggested doing seperate lines....which I'm not sure makes sense.
If you've done it...what size tank did you go with......and is it enough for your tastes. Also location of the tank....did it work out or not etc.

Kind of interesting looking at old posts.....even saw red rangies first post here.
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Old 02-14-2004, 09:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The Sanden will work fine. Simply get an air/oil separator before you put the air into your reservoir system. I'm using a 2.5 gall tank plus the sliders. This reservoir system is fine for tires and impacts. If you want to run an air ratchet, then you'll need more capacity. I uploaded couple of pics at http://community.webshots.com/album/33270040fxdHOZ. The biggest concern is that the outlet hose from the Sanden must be able to handle high heat. Since the Sanden isn't getting the cooling effect from R12/R134a and the, you end up with a very hot head temp.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Ali
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Old 02-14-2004, 09:22 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Well...since you're asking for feedback from me I'll give it (not that it would stop me if you hadn't...).

In a word, yes the Sanden does work. Are there others that work better? Yes. York comes to mind.

The Sanden does work, but it's slow. I have an air-tank from a LWB RRC mounted on the frame rail in essentially the 'stock' location for the tank and it works well there. I have the plumbing off of the tank rigged to run airlines to my ARB's, future air-springs, a rear line to an air-coupler for air tools, hose, whatever.

Airing up tires does take a while if you are airing up the tires with the engine idling. If you can bump up the idle it does help, but not much.

I keep 150psi in my air tank and run 75psi to each locker.

Make SURE that your Sanden is in good condition. I damn near burned down my CrewCab because the hot wire that passes behind the clutch came loose and shorted out on the clutch (the line was unfused, my mistake). That mistake nearly cost me my truck. Yeah, it's a seperate issue (the wiring/fuses), but it has relevance in that you're using a Sanden.

I run an oiler in-line before the Sanden, then a filter seperator before the tank. I want to keep oil out of my tires. I'll oil the tools manually.

If I were doing it again, and had the space, I would choose a York instead. Puts out MUCH more air volume at a greater PSI. I don't have the room, so I'll replace my toasted Sanden with another.

With the Sanden you won't get much out of your impact gun, maybe be able to break the lug nuts free for all tires, but not much more.

A PowerTank might be better suited for the job of using air tools. I do like the idea of having OBA for air-lockers and air-springs (if you have 'em), but I think for air tools the Sanden's not up to the job.
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Old 02-14-2004, 09:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
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How 'bout this idea?

I already have an ARB compressor.....reason I'm asking about the sanden is the ARB isn't quite so fast on the tires....and air tools....uh no.

A-can anyone compare the speed of the sanden compared to the ARB? I'm assuming its got to be a little faster...if nothing else it will run cooler than the ARB.

b-Is it possible to plumb it so that the sanden and the ARB can both contribute to the air tank. I could turn the ARB off if it gets warm and just use the sanden etc. Ie...the sanden is the primary, and the arb is auxillary/suplimentary.

I would retain the the arb air compressors connection to the arb diff....mostly cause I don't need the hassle or additional expense of hooking it up in line with the sanden.....but if that is advantageous.......
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Old 02-14-2004, 10:18 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Your scenario is what I was planning on doing with my truck.

I want to have a back-up air source and plumbing in an ARB would be easy. I would continue to use the Sanden, then if/when it fails I'll have the ARB there as back-up.

I don't think I like the idea of running them both at the same time, dunno why, I just don't. I'll probably put a ball-valve in line before the ARB compressor to keep the pressure down at the ARB.

No real reason to do this, just want to isolate it.
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Old 02-14-2004, 10:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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My thought is to have the air coming from the ARB to have a check valve....just like the setup in the pick. So both the sanden and the ARB would have there own check valve. After the check valve....they meet at a block(manifold?)
My concern is the pressure switch. Pressure switch would turn off the sanden, but not the arb. The ARB must have its own pressure switch i would think...but I don't know.
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Old 02-14-2004, 10:36 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sachilles
[IMG]The ARB must have its own pressure switch i would think...but I don't know.
It will come with a pressure switch that you have to wire in and plumb, but it doesn't have an internal switch.
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Old 02-14-2004, 06:41 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Adding a hand throttle will help thinks out.

My preferences is for a vernier cable control. They are pretty cheap (~$30USD) and easy to find.

Like this one

That is just an example. There are tons of brands, should be available from an industrial supply shop.
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Old 02-14-2004, 08:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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ooh.. i like that one.. in fact, i have something very close to that as a left-over when i installed my power-welder a few years ago...

hmmm....


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Old 02-15-2004, 03:07 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I probably wouldn't bother with the ARB compressor but if you do 1 pressure switch could start/stop both compessors, unless you want to stop the ARB at a lower setting (or something similar).
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Old 02-15-2004, 07:45 AM   #11 (permalink)
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With keeping the ARB separate...I think it needs to be on its own switch...and I'd prefer if it cuts out at a lower psi...as I think it overheats quicker.
As the ARB sits...it already has a small tank. Now if I plumb the other tank up so it comes where I currently attach my airline...won't it try to fill the bigger tank first....or at the very least both will equalize at the same time. Therefore, I'd need both tanks to have adequate pressure to run the ARB. Unless, I put in a cutoff valve in addition to the check valve.

I could probably rig up an underhood hand throttle pretty easily....Just use an old bike shifter.
I think I better grab a pen and paper and map this out.
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Old 02-15-2004, 05:45 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I have been looking into doing this myself for a while. I have read someplace on the web I think on Sandens website that they put out 6 cfm at around 2000 rpm. Good for most power tools.

The other things I have seen are the Sanden compressors converted to grease instead of oil. I don't know what is involved to convert but there is a company in Australia that does it. I know someone with the converted Sanden Denis W. And it works well. He airs up his 36s from, I think 15 to 35 PSI in about 30 seconds a tire. He also has a 2.5 gallon tank. I think I may try grease in mine this summer just to see how it works.

I agree with Mike, that diagram should have a fuse at the power source. Electricity has a funny way of doing what you least expect.
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Old 02-15-2004, 08:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I fought this for awhile....

A twenty pound tank full of CO2 sure works better/easier than all the complexity your discussing, including plumbing and electrical work...

j
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Old 02-15-2004, 08:55 PM   #14 (permalink)
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is anyone here running their ARB's off CO2? I'm sure there are several in gen . . . just thot i'd ask since it was . . .fuggit

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Old 02-16-2004, 07:33 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by redrangie
I fought this for awhile....

A twenty pound tank full of CO2 sure works better/easier than all the complexity your discussing, including plumbing and electrical work...

j
CO2 sounds good, but for me, I live in the sticks....and I'd have to drive an hour to get a tank refill. That was strike one.
I am also a fairly active club racer, I use the rover as a tow vehicle. Having the compressor their could get plenty of use(you would be amazed how much air you put in and take out of a race tire). Of course changing tires is a constant occurance.....and of course everyone wants to borrow air. So would rather have a renewable source(by me). Strike two.
strike three is cost. It appears I can plumb up the most complex dual system....and still come out with less invested.
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:01 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serious One
Well...since you're asking for feedback from me I'll give it (not that it would stop me if you hadn't...).

In a word, yes the Sanden does work. Are there others that work better? Yes. York comes to mind.

The Sanden does work, but it's slow. I have an air-tank from a LWB RRC mounted on the frame rail in essentially the 'stock' location for the tank and it works well there. I have the plumbing off of the tank rigged to run airlines to my ARB's, future air-springs, a rear line to an air-coupler for air tools, hose, whatever.

Airing up tires does take a while if you are airing up the tires with the engine idling. If you can bump up the idle it does help, but not much.

I keep 150psi in my air tank and run 75psi to each locker.

Make SURE that your Sanden is in good condition. I damn near burned down my CrewCab because the hot wire that passes behind the clutch came loose and shorted out on the clutch (the line was unfused, my mistake). That mistake nearly cost me my truck. Yeah, it's a seperate issue (the wiring/fuses), but it has relevance in that you're using a Sanden.

I run an oiler in-line before the Sanden, then a filter seperator before the tank. I want to keep oil out of my tires. I'll oil the tools manually.

If I were doing it again, and had the space, I would choose a York instead. Puts out MUCH more air volume at a greater PSI. I don't have the room, so I'll replace my toasted Sanden with another.

With the Sanden you won't get much out of your impact gun, maybe be able to break the lug nuts free for all tires, but not much more.

A PowerTank might be better suited for the job of using air tools. I do like the idea of having OBA for air-lockers and air-springs (if you have 'em), but I think for air tools the Sanden's not up to the job.
Has anyone tried running without the oiler inline for a comparison? I noticed that the oiler I was using was so restrictive that it cut back the compressor output to the point where I might as well have been using an electric compressor.

Interested in hearing more about the grease idea.

-T
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:42 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Yup,

I run the ARB's off a CO2 tank, and have for the last 4 years. Works VERY well. No electronics at all (hmmm, kinda like the Tdi). I use the pneumatic switches from GCR - http://www.gulfcoastrovers.com/all/switch/index.htm

The CO2 tanks are cheap and easy to deal with (I bought 3 - two 10 lbs tanks, and one 2.5 lbs tank to keep in the toolbox as a spare). They last a long, long time.

Simple, easy, hard to screw up, and won't fail on the trail (as long as you keep that spare small tank).

Billster

Quote:
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is anyone here running their ARB's off CO2? I'm sure there are several in gen . . . just thot i'd ask since it was . . .fuggit

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Old 02-16-2004, 08:50 AM   #18 (permalink)
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All valid concerns, but the key here is ease.

How much work you gonna put into all that fancy comlex crap? The CO2 stuff is a real no-brainer, and super easy. You MIGHT save a few bucks (although CO2 setup will cost you less than $150 if you get the right parts). Plus, the tank is portable and you can take it in any vehicle. In a pinch it might function as a fire extinguisher if you can get to it in time. And it can cool your drinks as well!

You are not going to have the output you think with that compressor. And I would not count on a high CFM for running air tools and such (which you can easily get outta a CO2 tank).

I have never understood why people put so much time and effort in trying to have an on-board compressor. Seems like a lot of hassle for little gain (compared to the alternative).

Just my opinion though, if you are set on it, knock yourself out.

Billster

Quote:
Originally posted by sachilles

CO2 sounds good, but for me, I live in the sticks....and I'd have to drive an hour to get a tank refill. That was strike one.
I am also a fairly active club racer, I use the rover as a tow vehicle. Having the compressor their could get plenty of use(you would be amazed how much air you put in and take out of a race tire). Of course changing tires is a constant occurance.....and of course everyone wants to borrow air. So would rather have a renewable source(by me). Strike two.
strike three is cost. It appears I can plumb up the most complex dual system....and still come out with less invested.
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:38 AM   #19 (permalink)
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FrankenRover....you have good points.

Just an FYI.....that work is actually fun sometimes. More fun to dream this stuff up as I drone through my sad existance at work.
At this price.....my girlfriend would probably pony up the cash....just to keep me busy.
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:49 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Hmmm, you said pony and girlfriend in the same sentence. Where are you from? Arkansas?

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Old 02-16-2004, 10:38 AM   #21 (permalink)
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air tools

air tools are good for body work and can help with the heavy lifting for doing bigger jobs on the drivetrain, but it seems like major overkill to me in having these on the trail for the more likely field-based mechanical repairs. to get a setup with enough bits to really be useful you're looking at adding another 50lbs of weight; using impacts with the chrome sets is just a safety hazard IMO. i carry a two foot aluminum tube from a vacuum cleaner to use over a 1/2" drive ratchet which works well. hey - that's from being broke, not cheap

thx for the link to that actuator - looks like a good setup. obviously each of the approaches have their pros and cons. i had wanted to look for a york, but am also like the idea of fixing the air conditioning :-D the dust during the summer time can be bad east of the mtns, and it sucks to be dying of heat with the windows rolled up to keep thedust out.
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Old 02-16-2004, 10:56 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Hmmm, you said pony and girlfriend in the same sentence. Where are you from? Arkansas?

Billster
I'm from vermont....where the men are men and the cows are nervous.....should my girlfriend ever look in here....I didn't mean you honey....and no you don't look fat in those pants.
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Old 02-16-2004, 11:02 AM   #23 (permalink)
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air tools.....its not so much that I want air tools for trail fixes....what really peaks my interest is the track weekends.
Nothing worse than having a tough day of racing in the warm sun, then have to change the tires....and limited time to do it. Same with adjusting air pressures. My truck is always there, filled with tools....might as well have a little air.
Its as much a novelty as anything...I'll admit it.
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Old 02-16-2004, 03:44 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Yeah, you should be able to run impacts with the oba. You can inflate tires, just not fast as a CO2 tank.

With the Sandens, I have seen couple of approaches when it comes to lubrication: drain the oil, install a grease fitting on the drain cap, pump in moly grease. This is what an outfit out of Oz does. I have also seen people simply run Slick 50 type oil through it and then just drain all oil. The compressor is operated with no oil except to add a little bit of oil once a summer season. In my case, I simply keep recircing the oil that's in the system by separating it and then re-introducing it back in the inlet. I still get oily air even after separating the air from the oil.

If I had the room and inclination, I'd install a York in there but space is tight.

Ali
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Old 02-17-2004, 06:07 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I've looked into this quite a bit and a guy on the yankee Toys list is putting together a "kit" that will convert my AC compressor into an onboard air source. Couplers, oiler, filters, the works. He's done it all on his own truck and has it well sorted.

I *think* that is what I want, but I keep coming back to this...

Quote:
A twenty pound tank full of CO2 sure works better/easier than all the complexity your discussing, including plumbing and electrical work...
I don't want/need to run air tools. I just want to air up tires (quickly) and be able to use it to inflate air matresses, etc.

So who knows what I'll do. I'll check out the kit when he's done and compare the price to a good CO2 tank set up and figure it out from there.
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