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Old 03-07-2002, 07:13 PM   #1 (permalink)
Way
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VERY LONG and technical transfer case question(s)

Can a 4 speed Borg Warner be replaced <B>directly</B> with a LT230? I have a Borg Warner 4 speed in my 1992 RR (<B>not </B>the 3 speed TF727 found in some model years for RR).

Now some background on the question. I called Advanced Adapters a few days ago. The adapter that they are making to adapt an atlas and similar to a rover trans. is made, but not in production. They say that it is on temporary hold while they determine if there is a market for this piece. It no longer looks like Greg Jevne of Safarigard is going to make a kit. I initially had limited my t-case options to either a Dana 300 or an Atlas (very similar). It does not look like either of those are going to be feasible as I do not want to machine any custom adapters (nor have the proper facilities and knowledge).

I have been eyeing the LT230 Land Rover transfer case. The reasons for this are that it is gear driven over my current chain driven unit. Lower gears come standard in this t-case improving my crawl ratio. Also additional gears can be added. With a Dana 44 in the front I am stuck at 4:10s (only ratio compatible with rover rear ring and pinion). So I am looking for gearing elsewhere. My other option is to plunge into another lengthy Dana 60 rear axle mod which I definitely will do in the future and then switch both D44 and D60 ratios to match fairly closely. However the gear ratio differences may not close enough to run all wheel drive. This leaves me with the problem of going to a part time conversion. I have heard that a kit is made to make the LT230 a part time, but not the Borg Warner. However I am still looking for a web page on this mod. Anyone???

Here is some interesting data I found on the web

LT 230 Transfer Case Comparisons
1.003 to 1.222 = 17.92% drop
1.003 to 1.410 = 28.86% drop
1.003 to 1.667 = 39.83!% drop

Or what I have in my Borg Warner (1.206) more closely matches this:
1.222 to 1.410 = 13.33% drop
1.222 to 1.667 = 26.70% drop

Obviously these are for (hi). For lo-range (other than $2500 crawl boxes…skip!) I found a maxidrive offers some sort of conversion that lowers crawl ratio by 30% (or 40% by request). The site didn’t have a lot of info, so I am little confused. It sounds like the kit just replaces the low range gears with high quality lower gears. But I see on the GBR site that these two gears cost $1950! For two gears…I must be confused.

Here are the ratios for my Transmission (ZF 4HP22 4 speed auto):
Ratios 2.48, 1.48, 1.00, 0.73:1. Reverse: 2.09:1

With 4:10s I am at a crawl ratio of 32.98. I use to be at a little under 40 (with 4.7) and I thought that was a little on the high side for my slow speed nature.

Any sources or information greatly appreciated.. The mod will proably not happen for a while, but I would like to know hat I am getting into, so that I do not make any unessary purchases.

Way

Here are some links to good web pages that I found.
http://www.autoconv.com/ (Ashcroft MFG)
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Dunes/...ars.html#lt230 (personal site with lots of tech info)

http://www.4wdworld.com.au/products/maxidrive/ (maxidrive of Australia GBRs source for all of his stuff)
/

Last edited by Way; 03-07-2002 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 03-07-2002, 08:00 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Okay Adam...Here's my 2 (or 3 cents)...If you really want to go with an Atlas then convert to the TF727, live life without the OD, and bite the bullet now and do the 60 conversion (you know you want the lower gearing!).

Or, keep the ZF and convert to a LT230 (w/part-time) with the Maxi low range kit....Although, IMO, you'd be money ahead doing the 60 conversion and skipping the Maxi gears.

The thing with the ZF is that you'll have a tough time keeping it together with anything more than 275hp....So if you've got a hot engine swap planned then better off again with the TF and Atlas....

Another option is to get Timm Cooper to build you a 700R4 adapter to the LT230....But he doesn't do the Rover block to a 700r4 adapter...So you "stuck" with having to put a different lump in her.

As you can see possibilities are numerous...One thing for sure is that the LT230 is one tough T-case...Can't go too wrong there.

If it were me, I'd do a TF, Atlas and 60....But as we all know I'm a crazy bastard, and anything I say should be taken with a serious grain of salt!

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Old 03-07-2002, 08:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Where can I find out more anout the TF727. Sounds like it is substantially stonger. It also sounds like it is a 3 speed??? Maybe mate that to an overdrive unit (if one is made). It sounds like this bolts up directly to the rover block (which I would like to keep for a while).

Does the TF727 mate up well to lets say a Chevy 350 or a Ford 351 (with the proper adapter of course)?? I am not opposed to going with a new transmission and transfer case, I didn't realize the ZF was weak.

A chevy 350, 700rv and an atlas sounds like the winning combo if money is of no concern. Where can I find out the cost and ratios of a TF727. Are there any other alternative transmissions that I should be investigating???

Do some LT230s come with part time and others not, or is there a company that makes a conversion kit?

Thanks for the info Doug. It will give me some useful info to search the web with.

Way
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Old 03-07-2002, 08:57 PM   #4 (permalink)
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The Torque Flite 727 is a heavy duty Chrysler 3 speed automatic transmissions. They have an aluminum case and a 23 spline output shaft.
The TF 727 was used in full sized Jeeps (SJs and J series pickups) from 1980-1983. From 1984-1992 the 727 was only used in these trucks with the AMC 360 V8. It uses the standard AMC bolt pattern. The case is 16" long and 14 bolts hold in the pan.

TF727 Comparison to Rover
1st 2.45 (rover 2.48), 2nd 1.45 (rover 1.48), 3rd 1 (rover 1) , 4th none (rover .728)
*based on ZF4 auto

Here is a chart for vehicles to find (in junkyard amybe that have these for those interested)

http://www.turboaction.com/transchartchrysler.html
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Old 03-07-2002, 09:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Hi Adam,

Here is a long answer:

Ok here is the deal. Timm Cooper will sell you a part time conversion machined "puck" for your LT230.

The other option is to purchase from AVM (check out the thread below).

You can also buy a case from Ashcroft already set up for part time.

I am going with the AVM kit (mainly to get the free wheeling hubs that come with it which you could resell as they would not work with a D44 and provided the kit is not crap) on my 1.003 tranfer case when it arrives. Bearmach is faxing me the fitting instructions so I should know tomorrow what exactly is in the kit.

An Lt230 will bolt in place of the BW unit on your rangie. The main changes that need to be made are the DSs. they are not the same length between the two.

The TF727 was found in 83-85 rangies (and a huge number of US vehicles like 426 hemis). It bolted to an adaptor then onto the LT230. I do not know if the rover TF727 is compatible with anything else. while generally regarded as tough it also is a 3 speed and not as smooth or efficient as a zf. ZFs are quite durable so unless you are going to run something really built then no sweat.

Based on what you have now I would get an offset D60 rear and gear the shit out of your axles (you could also mod a salisbury to work too as salisburys can use D60 r&p). Then I would try to find or buy a 1.003 LT230. However, be carefull in buying a used (original) one. They suffer from input shaft wear and the bearings are not as good as the later LT230T models so it will whine and be sloppy.

with 4.88 or even something above 5 you will still be able to drive on the highway and have a crawl ratio a little better than what you had with 4.7s

Personally I have an R380 (4:1 1st I think)x 3.3 in the LT230 x 4.7s in the diffs which gives me ~62:1 crawl which I feel will be plenty for 35s and diesel. I plan to put a 1.003 high range but now that I look at the numbers I might be better with a 1.22 high range. Oh well I will have both lying around so no biggy if I change my mind. With a V8 and 35s and steep diff gears though I would definately go with the 1.003 high range.

As far as the crawler box or especially the GBR lower low range gears I would stay awayt for the time being. The GBR low gears seem to be a bad idea and the price is really high. The only one I know who has them is Rich Hills. Until the new crawler box is proven I would stay away from that too.

Ron

PS a technical LT230 question would be like:

How do I correctly set the output bearings preload without the special tools?
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Old 03-07-2002, 09:22 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Way
It sounds like this bolts up directly to the rover block (which I would like to keep for a while).

yes...But they use an adaptor to the block...Standard early RR stuff

Does the TF727 mate up well to lets say a Chevy 350 or a Ford 351 (with the proper adapter of course)?? I am not opposed to going with a new transmission and transfer case, I didn't realize the ZF was weak.

Yes... And the ZF really is a nice tranny...It just doesn't like high HP all that well...Other than that the ZF is a really sweet tranny.


Do some LT230s come with part time and others not, or is there a company that makes a conversion kit?

Were have you been man!...See Timm Cooper...He's gonna' make mine (someday)


Way
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Old 03-07-2002, 09:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Does Timm have a web page I hate to bother him if I am not ready to purchase. Maybe he will trade me the tranny and adapters for my built up rover rear axle??? Yeah right!

Where can I find additional information. Do I need to just call him?

Way
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Old 03-07-2002, 09:39 PM   #8 (permalink)
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You just need to call him.

But since I already called I can pass on the info he told me.

Basically the conversion consists of a machined puck that replaces the sun and spider gears and cross pins in the center differential, the front output is supported by a bearing. What used to lock your diff now engages 4wd.

Price is $250 (should I reveal that? oh well I did). Because it is from Timm Cooper it will never break. Based on the description Timm gave me it sounds very efficient and is about as complicated as a sledge hammer (which is a good thing )

To install you will have to pull a good portion of the t-case apart. Not too hard but you will have to pull and repress on one bearing which could be an issue for you. Since you arn't changing it I don't see why you would have to reset the preload but . . . I am no expert.

The other option is the AVM kit. bearmach sells it and you can get it though whoever sells bearmach (my choice is thatchedroofgarage.com) However, until I see what is in the kit I would not recommend buying it. It costs $225 but comes with Free wheeling hubs.

Ron

PS he also said that eaton rear axles would be nice as far as an offset rear axle.
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Old 03-07-2002, 09:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The only thing I take issue with here is response about the strength of ZF boxes I no longer run the ZF but I did and they can be built to take big power. They were factory offered in Mercedes and Jaguar pruducts rated up to 389hp 440ft*lbs of torque. I recommend Renntech for a top quality high output ready rebuild that will stand up to any rover motor. The TF727 is just the old chrysler 727 torque flite 3 speed automatic which is more than strong enough for your needs. It was used behind every high output mopar motor ever made that offered an automatic including all the big blocks. If you go this way be prepared for a BIG mileage penalty when you lose your overdrive and lockup torque convertor. If you want to use a current GM transmission you can get transfer case adaptors from Overfinch(d$$kh$$d brits) or Mark's 4WD (reasonable Aussie). Mark's product line is available through Advance. Lots of places offer the B/O/P to Chevrolet bellhousing bolt pattern adaptors if you are going to keep the rover motor for a while.
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Old 03-07-2002, 11:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for all of the info everyone! I will keep the list posted of any additional mods that I see out on the WWW.

Sounds like maybe the part time LT-230 a chopped d60 with 4:88 or 5:13s mated to my zf4 for the time being sounds like a good set up to shoot for. Maybe then I will win the lotto and build a buggy seeing no matter how modified the rover gets I still don't want to roll it on the weekends for fun! Maybe by the time the 60 is built I can sell it for the cost of the conversion..hmmm..gets me thinking anyways.




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Old 03-08-2002, 01:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Adam..... for some more in depth ratio comparisons, check out the Ashctoft site at:

http://www.autoconv.com/ratio.htm

the list all the transfer and axle ratios and their respective % differences.


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Old 03-08-2002, 02:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Had a great long talk with Tim today

Had a great long talk with Tim today. What a nice guy! I will definitely be doing an LT230 conversion now. No doubt about it. Called Atlas today and wanted to see if they made any adapters to bolt a more standard transmission to the rover motor (thinking that I could replace the transmission in order to get a part time transfer case). They make nothing. Klune V. Does not make any adapters as well and she said several years before they make anything and if they do it will be for a LT230 and not a Borg Warner chain driven. So I finally decided to call and bug Tim for some information on the Lt230 conversion.

He quoted the cost for the conversion to be in the $250 range. From what I understand it just replaces the entire spider gear assembly. If you own a Range Rover like me you will need to source shift linkage and also a bracket. I am still new at the transfer case talk, so I am not exactly sure what I need to get. Does anyone have a source for these parts or possible have an extra laying around (I have lots of rover parts to trade!). I will also need to get a new right hand t-case mount (again any sources appreciated).

Tim said that if he has your LT230 he would do all of the modification necessary for you. He confirmed that the LT230 will bolt in place of the Borg Warner and straight into the ZF 4HP22 4 speed auto. However you will need to resize the front driveshaft. For the time being I am going to save up for a rebuilt LT230 and have Tim do the mod for me as I don't know what I am doing.

Some other interesting info was that the 700r4 has the exact same ratios as my current transmission. He makes an adapter for that to go to the LT230. As everyone probably already knows a Chevy Ram Jet 350 would mate nicely to that. I like this route because it can be done in stages. It is hard to drop the money down all at the begining for such a large mod. The only downfall to this is that you will once again have to resize your front driveshaft as this requires a very long (9”) adapter.

Another exciting mod that Tim is working on is a bolt on unit that is an overdrive and underdrive both. It will have a ballpark low range step down by 2.5. It will also have a 30% reduction in hi. This sounds like a great way to have an all around vehicle that can be set up perfectly for any situation.

Here is some chronological info I found out today. Around 1981 LT230s were made. They were a straight roller bearing design and carried the name LT230R. From 1981 to 1985 they remained the same. After 85 they went to a straight roller bearing design with an intermediate shaft. In 89 dog tooth changes and stays this way till 94. In 1995 they started to drill the input gear for better oil circulation. 1995 and 1996 Discos had these sought after t-cases. Anyone want to trade me for a Borg Warner???

The later ones carried the name LT230Q. They have smaller (weaker gears) but a thicker case. The thicker case helped keep the unit quieter hence the Q that follows the name. The strength of these units is so great that the slightly smaller gears is kind of a moot point.

Now the cool part! We had a cutting break conversation. If you put the vehicle in four wheel drive through the lever (center diff lock) in his mod (already have if you own Disco or D90), you can yank on the driveshaft brake (or the emergency brake cables if you do a D60) and emulate cutting brakes. Good way to bust the rover front end, but if you go with something stronger no worries there.

Way

Last edited by Way; 03-08-2002 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 03-08-2002, 03:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Way wrote:

Now the cool part! We had a cutting break conversation. If you put the vehicle in four wheel drive through the lever (center diff lock) in his mod (already have if you own Disco or D90), you can yank on the driveshaft brake (or the emergency brake cables if you do a D60) and emulate cutting brakes. Good way to bust the rover front end, but if you go with something stronger no worries there.

I'm not sure I understand this. I know that with a full-time box in full time, you can grab a hand full of brake, locking up the rear, sending the power to the front axle. This allows one to pull the front around. I'm not sure how this would work with the diff lock locked (or Timm's modification while in 4x4).

Rich
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Old 03-08-2002, 03:34 PM   #14 (permalink)
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"Here is some chronological info I found out today. Around 1981 LT230s were made. They were a straight roller bearing design and carried the name LT230R. From 1981 to 1985 they remained the same. After 85 they went to a straight roller bearing design with an intermediate shaft. In 89 dog tooth changes and stays this way till 94. In 1995 they started to drill the input gear for better oil circulation. 1995 and 1996 Discos had these sought after t-cases. Anyone want to trade me for a Borg Warner???

The later ones carried the name LT230Q. They have smaller (weaker gears) but a thicker case. The thicker case helped keep the unit quieter hence the Q that follows the name. The strength of these units is so great that the slightly smaller gears is kind of a moot point."

I would just like to add to this:

I have an LT230 with a late 94 (anywhere from august to november) date stamping that has the crossdrilled input and came that way (never been opened up). So you cannot go entirely based on date stamping. You have to pull the PTO cover to be sure.

The crossover to the LT230Q came sometime during 1998.

The point of my earlier comments about the potential issues with an original LT230 with the 1.003 high range relate to the issues you mentioned. The inferior bearing design and the lack of a cross drilled input gear. There is a retrofit to a oiling plate for the non crossdrilled input cases but its usually too late and its effectiveness is not as good as the crossdrilled shaft.

Ron
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Old 03-08-2002, 03:51 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Good question Rich,

Now that I think about it, the modification really does not make any difference on the cutting brake issue. I have never tried the cutting brake simulated technique. I have always been able to break the rover axles very easily without horsing around.

Your assumption of what I meant was correct though. Sorry for the confusion.

Way
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Old 03-08-2002, 03:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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So Ron does the mean you want to trade???




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Old 03-08-2002, 05:38 PM   #17 (permalink)
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which one do you want?

The disco one or the 1.003? I could really use both and the 1.003 is not in my hands yet so I can't send you that right away. Also I would anticipate needing a full rebuild on it to make it not whine etc.

Make me an offer I guess. Your borg warner is actually worth something as they break (and hence need to be replaced) where as LT230s do noty break with any frequency. I am sure you could sell the BW and buy an LT230 and not be out much $$$

Ron
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Old 03-08-2002, 07:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
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My first choice s the 1.2:1 ratio. The 1 to 1.003 ratio is tempting and I really would have gone for that if I still had the 4.70:1 ring and pinion. I would also be happy with a 1.4:1 LT230 as well, but I know later on that the 1.4:1 would be a bit steep for a Ram Jet 350.

Regardless, I would like to get rid of the Borg Warner. Bad thing is, that I had all of the bearings replaced less than 500 miles ago. Good deal to whoever gets it!!!

Way

P.S. Have it rebuilt and I will throw some money at you along with Borg Warner. I have seen a need for them, but do not really want to spend the time trying to sell it. I would like to have a qucik fix and be up on the road again.

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Old 03-08-2002, 09:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Ok Adam,

I will have to think about it. I have no use for a BW.

A 1.22 is pretty easy to find. You should have no trouble finding one as there are a lot of people parting out discos. Try asking on RN BBS, lrx, and discoweb. I am sure one will fall in your lap for under $500. If I see another one around here I will try to pick it up. I could even put the part time conversion in it if you wanted.

Ron

Edit: PS now that I think about it I know of another one floating around here that I coudl probably get cheap. I will check on it over the weekend and see what the timeframe is on it.
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Old 03-09-2002, 08:46 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Thanks Ron!

Sounds good. I have cheaked the southwest four corners area and there are none to be found. I am sure I could head up to the front range, but then again seeing how I woulnd't know what to look for it would be kind of a waste of a trip. Keep an eye out for rebuilt ones as well, as I do not have the knowledge to rebuild one. I will keep an eye out for ones on the Internet.

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Old 03-09-2002, 04:32 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Adam,

Call back Cooper and tell him you're looking for a t-case. I know he can find you one for a reasonable price. Might not be a bad option actually, he can source it locally, do the mods and you won't have to deal with shipping.

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Old 03-09-2002, 04:39 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Good suggestion Mike. He does have sources for them. he quoted me $1300 for a rebuilt LT230 with his adapter. Sounds like a great price, but he wants nothing to do with a Borg Warner, and I currently do not have $1300 saved up for this mod.

I was hoping I could work out a deal and trade someone my unit for their rebuilt one?? May be wishful thinking, but I have nothing to lose if someone want the more expensive Borg unit vs. the more common LT230. I am guessing that if they can find a buyer that they have the potntial to make some money off of the deal.

At this time I can afford the shipping and the adapter only, but if I can sell my Borg than I would be in great shape to get the mod. Cooper does not have any of the bracketry, mounts, or shift linkage. I am trying to source those so that I can make it compatible with my vehicle. So if anyone has any of the above I would like to purchase them off of you, so that when I do get the case that I will have everything ready to go. Anyone know if I will have to modify my e-brake set up???

Way

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Old 03-10-2002, 04:01 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I have done the BW to LT230 conversion on my 1990 RR. If you get a Tcase with the Drum and brake linkage, there isn't a need to fabricate It. On mine I used the drum from the BW and Modified the BW brake linkage to make it work. Ill see if I can get some pics. The shift linkange isn't too difficult to find, but if you need help Ill see if I can track one down for you.

One other issue is the with the center console. This needs to be modified so that it will stay in diff lock. With pout modifing it it will go into diff lock, but as things get jostled about off road, the pressure on the lever from the console will pop it out of diff lock. This can be modified without much work (and look good) or you can get a center console from an 87 or 88.

For the most part it is a direct bolt in once you acquire the right parts.

I put about $500 total into the swap. I donated my BW box to a friend to use for various engineering experiments.

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Old 03-10-2002, 05:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Pictures would be great. I am sure I can modify my center console to accept the mod without having to source a older RR one. Worst case I will pick up a Tuffy one that is all metal that would be less prone to flexing off road and in return moving the unit out of diff lock.

If you ahvppen to come accross the linkage I would gladly pay a reasonable fee and any expense to get it shipped to me. Thanks again.

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