Rockwell 2.5t

[Strange Rover]

Ive worked out what axles Im gong to run when its time to do something about these d44s.

I can buy Rockwell 2.5t steering axles locally for $1250AUS each which is incredibly cheap considering that the aussie dollar is half the $US and these things are in stock locally (not all that far away from Maxi Drive actually)

The only thing is that I really want to run wheel brakes (and not a pinion brake) and keep the WMS-WMS less than 70inches.

I fairly sure that I can do this by buying 2 steering axles. Use the short axle out of one and put it in the other (so that the front steer axle has two short axles). This will get me a WMS-WMS of between 73in (hubs flipped out) to 63inches(hubs flipped in). So then machine the rockwell spindle to run some conventional hubs (like a 14bolt) and rotors and voila a rockwell steer axle with brakes under 70inches.

For the rear Im thinking of cutting down the leftover front long axles, resplining the ends and run custom drive flanges. I think that if I cut the ears off the two long front axles and respline a can make a non steer rear with the same WMS as the front.

To do this would be a fairly big project but I think I will be doing this before I get a D60 front from the US (which is just going to cost too much money compared to the base cost of the rockwells).

So basically what this means is that I wont spend money on regearing the d44s I have now. Im just going to fab up some wheel spacers (using the steel rings I have now and then get some flange plates laser cut to the correct bolt pattern and weld them together and maybe get em machined if im that keen) and run with what I got. If I start to break too much and I got some spare time then I will have a play with the rockwells and see what I can make. If it turns out that Im happy with the strength of the d44s (which I dont think I will be but you never know) I may consider regearing.

The best thing with the rockwells is that they have 6.72:1 gears standard and plenty of beef. But they will take a lot of work to get them to fit.

Sam

[evilfij]

Isn't the only locker for rockwells a detroit?

I would not mention it but you seem very ARB or nothing.

Also are your 42s 15s or bigger

Ron

[evilfij]

Why not just flip the hubs?

That would keep the pinions where they should be-for a rover anyway

Note: I have been reading all the rockwell threads as I have an obsession with anything with a pass offset rear

Ron

[Strange Rover]

Originally posted by evilfij
Isn't the only locker for rockwells a detroit?

I would not mention it but you seem very ARB or nothing.

Also are your 42s 15s or bigger

Ron

Yep only a detroit. The reason I dont want an automatic locker is that I want to be able to run open diffs.

The reason that I want to run open diffs is that we have developed a very good electronic traction controll system (totally made from scratch nothing to do with abs or anything). Our ETC is so much better than any factory system that I have seen. It is almost as good as lockers in most cases and I feel it is better than lockers in some (cause the wheels can still differentiate while getting torque to both wheels) and it is definately much much easier on axles and gears than lockers.

This is why I think that the d44s may go alright with the 42s (strength wise) and also why I dont really need the lockers. Currently I only have a locker in the rear and an open front. The difference in what I can drive with the rear locked or open is only small.

If I am going to keep the d44s I will probably get a locker for the front (too see how much a difference having a locked front makes) but this hasnt been a priotry. (although it is next on the list since I now have a winch)

If I went to Rockwells I wouldnt worry about the lockers at all I would just run with the traction control. This is why I need the wheel brakes to work the traction control.

I feel that with the extra beef of the rockwells and the 42s and open diffs with the traction control I think that I would go pretty well and I would also prove a point about the traction control (by driving stuff that guys with lockers drive)

Its fun to drive stuff with open diffs while everyone else is breaking shiat with their lockers.

OK the cats out of the bag - im not really hard core, Ive only got one locker.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

oh yea my 42s are on 15s. Which is a shame since I am thinking about bigger axles but it sort of evolved that way.

The problem with flipping the hubs is that you loose the wheel brakes.

Ron, do you know how much the driveshafts are off set with the diff centred (ie running equal length axles). I think that the non-steer rockwell are like this.

Sam

[evilfij]

Someone said a non-steer rear the pinion is offset 5in wuth the diff centered

No personal experince just read it in the achieves.

Ron

[Strange Rover]

OK heres my thinking on my plan:

With the hubs flipped on the stock length axles wht WMS is 70inches (although the cruiser guy says 67in). In this configuration there in no possibility of running wheel brakes as the WMS is hard up against the knuckle (they even ground the back of the wheel studs for clearance) So to run wheel brakes you have to shorten the axle tube.

The axles have a smaller diameter then the spline so you carnt shorten ans respline the axles. So the only cheap way to shorten the front is to run two short axles. By shortening the housing (by 7inches this way) then gives you room on the outside of the knuckle to run wheel brakes while still keeping a respectable WMS (less than 70in).

It should be possible (although I havent measured yet so im only guessing) to run a 1ton hub on the 2.5 tonne spindles cause the 2.5t spindle is huge and thick and the 2.5t bearings are also huge to carry the big weights that they are designed for. So I think that I could get something to work to run the 1 tonne spindles (even if I had to machine the outer axle down to 1.5in 35 spline and run a 14bolt spindle and hub then convert to 5 on 5.5. I think the outer 2.5t shaft is only 1.625in conpared to 1.5 for a 14 bolt so it is close)

Any thats what I am thinking at the moment.

Sam

[evilfij]

"Any thats what I am thinking at the moment."

I am thinking I have no hope of ever being able to do anything like that.



Ron

[Strange Rover]

Originally posted by evilfij
Someone said a non-steer rear the pinion is offset 5in wuth the diff centered

No personal experince just read it in the achieves.

Ron

mmm, 5inches isnt much. Whats stock rover is it 6.5in?

I really need to go down to this place (about 1/2 hour drive) and have a look at these things. The biggest drama a think to run thses it the amount of lift needed to clear the top loader. I think I would need about 5in more than I have now to clear the sump. Although if I did use these axles I would move the front axle forward like Doug and get more clearance that way.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

Originally posted by evilfij
"Any thats what I am thinking at the moment."

I am thinking I have no hope of ever being able to do anything like that.



Ron

I really dont think that it would really be that hard. Lets say I machine the outer axle down to 1.5in 30spline. All I would then need to do is make up an adapter (big bit of steel with some holes in it) that bolts onto the 2.5t knuckle instead of the 2.5t spindle that would adapt to the 14bolt spindle. Bolt the adapter on to the knuckle bolt the spindle on and then the 14bolt hub and drum brakes will then bolt straight up (with a custom drive flange). To go the extra step to convert to 5 on 5.5 and disk brakes is another step but this has been done before and doesent look too hard.

Sam

Sam

[evilfij]

So I guess the next thing I need to figure out is how to machine stuff.



Ron

[Strange Rover]

Originally posted by evilfij
So I guess the next thing I need to figure out is how to machine stuff.



Ron

Thats the easy bit, you just gotta pay someone else to do it.

Just thinking about it, it would be real nice if the 2.5t outer axle would fit inside the 14 bolt spindle. I think the 14bolt spindle is setup for a 1.5in axle and the 2.5t outer is a 1.625in so thats a .125in difference which I would guess would have to be board out of the centre of the 14bolt spindle. This may be possible, I have read about how a 1.31 d60 spindle is board to take a 1.5in axle when converting a rear from 30 spline to 35 spline. In this case the difference is .19in .

If this was the case i would be real easy to do.

Sam

[fcfred]

can you describe the ETC thing a little more?
or is that top secret?

[stonpny]

more infor on the hummer rims and rockwell centers........how much, whats backspacing, and are you runing the beadlocks as well??

[Strange Rover]

Originally posted by Daniel
OK wow when you get these done email me pics pronto OK?

Daniel, Glad you chimed in. Got some questions (quite a few actually.)

Do you know off hand the diameters of the inner and outer axles of these monsters. From the archives I think the inner is 1.75in at the spline and the outer is 1.625 at the spline? Is this correct? What does the diameter of the iner and outer axles neck down to? Also do you know the lengths of the inner and outer axles?

From the archives the WMS-WMS of the stock steer axle with hubs flipped out is 80inches. Hubs flipped in is 70inches (although the cruiser guy reckons 67in). And by running two short axles in the front you shorten the housing by 7inches. Is this correct?

Also with the diff centered (like in the rear) what is the offset of the driveshaft , is it 5inches?

And finally how is the easiest way to tell if the steer axle has the spicer style uni joints (which are good) or the other type of joint (sort of like a tracta joint with some balls - this joint is bad). Do I have to pull the axle down to find out or is there an easier way.


Damn, that ended up with a lot of questions sorry about that but I guess you are the man I should be asking.

Thanks for any help And I will be sure to send some info your way if I do do this.

Sam

Oh yea the pic of the hummer rim, is that the 2.5t drum brake layed on top of the hummer rim. Im having trouble seeing what it is.

[Strange Rover]

Originally posted by fcfred
can you describe the ETC thing a little more?
or is that top secret?

Nah not really top secret although some bits are

Our ETC essencially works the same as any of the other ETC systems (like the land rover one). The reason why I feel that ours works so much better than any I have seen is that we probably control the brakes much better and our system works down to much lower speeds (in fact right down to no speed). For example to get factory Land Rover ETC to work effectively you really have to get into it with the throttle (heaps of wheel spin) where as with ours you can just idle or ride the clutch from a dead stop and the ETC will still work well (like driving a wheel onto a big rock slowly you can crawl with ours not not with any factory ones that I have seen.

The actual system itself is very simple to look at. It has speed sensors on each wheel (similar to ABS sensors), it has individual brake master cylinders than are in the brake lines to each wheel (these dont affect the normal aperation of the service brakes in any way) to activate the brakes individually. The induvidual brake master cylinders are each operated by an air actuator (like an air ram) the air actuators have electric air solenoids on them so that they can be controlled by a computer. The computer then looks at the wheel speeds and applies the brakes individually on each wheel when you get any wheel spin.

It seems very simple to do but to actually get the computer to operate the brakes so that all the wheels rotate at the same speed no matter what (like a locker) is the hard part.

The biggest difference between out ETC and diff locks is that with the ETC you must first get the wheel spin, then the computer detects it and applies the brake and then you transfer the torque to the other wheel and you drive forward. With the ETC that is a definate time delay for the thing to work compared to lockers where there is nothing at everything is just locked up. In most general wheeling the time delay doesent cause any problems. But sometimes in the extreme stuff where momentum is critical and you really need to get a bight on a rock as soon as the wheel touches it then the ETC may not do the job. But we are working on it.

We initially developed the ETC system to compete with diff locks on trucks (you know big trucks, 18 wheeler type stuff like a Kenworth) where diff locks are very expensive and the ETC will be very competitive.

Sam

[Old Scout]

Hey Daniel I like you new title, it fits you to a T

[RockRover]

Originally posted by Strange Rover
Ive worked out what axles Im gong to run when its time to do something about these d44s.

I can buy Rockwell 2.5t steering axles locally for $1250AUS each which is incredibly cheap considering that the aussie dollar is half the $US and these things are in stock locally (not all that far away from Maxi Drive actually)

Sam

Okay...I give up...Sam you win.

























--D

P.S.: No front locker? Man...

[Strange Rover]

Originally posted by RockRover


P.S.: No front locker? Man...

Yea terrible isnt it. I probably should get one one day just too see for real what a differance it makes instead of just the traction control. I think that it would make a bit of differance in the when throttling up rocky climbs with lots of loose rocks and bigger fixed ones.

It is sort of funny ( catch 22 ). If I stay with these axles I probably will get a front locker. Then with the front locker I will have to think that when am I going to use it. If its a tough loose climb (where the traction control time delay does make it worse than a locker) where a spinning front wheel will hit a hard grippy rock that it can grab hold off do I really want the front locked up that situation cause when it spinns and bites I might break something. So im still probably better off trying first with the front unlocked and the traction control.

When Im just wheeling I always leave the rear locker off and try to drive everything with the traction control. And too be honest there is nothing that I currently need the rear locker to drive. Although with the rear locked it does make some stuff easied and I can go slower (especially when it is wet, although I am always finding harder tracks) The times when I use the locker a lot is when I am competing and I guess if I had a front one as well then I would also use it when competing.

The best thing about open diffs and the traction control is that when I try and drive stuff if I spin a wheel and the traction control goes off you can hear it (sounds a lot like releasing an ARB air locker you know the air sound) and it is amaizing what you can drive with open diffs and not spin wheels.

So yea, I dont need no fkn lockers They only break shit anyway.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

Thanks heaps Daniel for that. It will save me a lot of legwork.

Starting to close in on a possible setup to get wheel brakes on the rockwells. As it turns out I have as much chance fitting a Rover hub onto the rockell axle as anything because the Rover hub and drive flange are as large as any one ton axle.

The best bit about the Rover stuff is that firstly I have more Rover stuff lying around than you can poke a stick at (meaning that I have quite a lot of rover stuff from hubs to disks to brake calipors to wheels, everything). And also the rover stuff has disk brakes and I can run my 15in wheels on it without any hassles.

Jack Macnamara Differentials makes a replacement Rover spindle and drive flange that can accapt a 1.5in 35 spling axle that mates up to a stock Rover hub that has had a little bit of simple machining done to it. He also has the part numbers for bearings that will suit this.

So I am getting close. At worse I would have to machine the outer rockwell down to 1.5in 35spline and this will work.

Better still is if I can get Jack Macnamara (actually his name is Jeff and he is a very helpfull and nice, friendly fellow ) to squeeze another .125in out of the ID of his spindles somewhere so that I can run the stock 1.625in diameter outer shaft of the rockwell. Maybe we can make the wall of the spindle thinner and up the OD of them as well (to get to the next bearing size maybe). Might be able to machine the ID of the rover hub a little larger also. I am sure that there will be away to get the extra 1/8 in.

So hopefully I am getting real close to a possible setup. If I can get the Rover hub to work then I will do it for sure. It will make a fantistic axle with plenty of beef less than 70in WMS-WMS with disk brakes and a Rover stud pattern. What more could you want in an axle (oh yea and the 6.72:1 gears).

If I can do this I will pull out all the stops and give up forever the thoughts of driving my hybred on the road (which I have fairly well done so anyway) or even looking like it might be regestered. I will go full hydraulic steering, move the front axle forward, move the rear axle back, open diffs, traction control and WHEEL THE ABSOLUTE CRAP OUT OF IT.

YEA BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Sam

[RockRover]

Originally posted by Strange Rover
I will go full hydraulic steering, move the front axle forward, move the rear axle back, open diffs, traction control and WHEEL THE ABSOLUTE CRAP OUT OF IT.

Sounds familiar.