Fuel Cell: Question for Doug - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum

rhills · 04-01-2002, 12:58 PM

Doug,

What did you decide to do about your fuel tank and fuel pump?

Rich

RockRover · 04-01-2002, 01:42 PM

Gezz Rich...Kinda a personal question isn't it?

Seriously, I'm torn between building an enclosure for my stock tank (recessed in the bed) and just biting the bullet and buying a 16gal from Summit...Thing with the cell is dealing with the pump (Mallory) and all the fittings and such (return, vent, supply)...Then would I need a pusher pump AND a puller pump? Not super complicated, but using the stock tank in a trick enclosure sure would save a BUNCH of work (and $). The cell is the last thing on the to-do list. But that's the two options I'm toying with.

--D

Note that I didn't even ask you any questions on what your planning?...I'll just keep answering your questions...You know...As the gracious guy I am...No worries...Please don't feel as though you should divulge any of your plans okay?

rhills · 04-01-2002, 02:10 PM

Doug,

This is a high priority item for me since it defines how I make the extended cab. I like the idea of using the stock tank since it is complete and DOT and emissions legal. I could raise it in place, or raise it and move it forward. Either way, we loose a lot of space.

A 17 gal. fuel cell would fit a lot better, but one would have to get a fuel pump that runs at 30-40 psi at the right flow rate (so as to not overwhelm the existing pressure regulator/return system) and add lots of fittings to make the tank emissions legal.

The third option is to use a fuel tank from an existing vehicle. I'm told that most GM systems use in-tank fuel pumps in the 30-40 psi range. The question is, which one fits. It sure would be nice to find a 7-8" deep one that fits into the space above the a-arm. This is my first choice.

The fourth option would be to redo the suspension so that there is only a single upper arm within that space and use a panhard rod. This would require the most work but would also provide the most space. I would rather find a stock tank that keeps my floor lower.

Once I decide that I can make a nice looking extended cab (which means actually making at least the tub part of it - which means knowing where the tank goes), then I plan to extend the wheelbase to around 99" by moving the rear axle back. I plan to stay with smaller diameter tires (i.e., 35-36" ) for the next year or so.

By the way, I have the tank out now, so I can no longer drive it around on my driveway without the top and bed.

Way · 04-01-2002, 02:25 PM

I have a friend that did an internet search on fuel cells. He is building a bronco buggy. All of the comapnies he called would make a custom dimension tank with a side fill so that you do not have to fill the tank from the top (like most of the ones I have seen in buggies around here). I would go this route. Quoted price to him for a 20 gallon was around $650! Sounds more cost effective (if you factor in your time) than purchasing chromoly and redoing suspension linkage.

One word of advice not to get the anti gas slosh foam stuff. It has been know to degrade and get into the fuel system. Don't know first hand, but I have heard it from several people.

Way

rhills · 04-01-2002, 03:14 PM

Way,

Thanks for the information. I have also read about the foam problems in my internet searches. However, if you eliminate the foam, I'm concerned about
fuel pick up problems when the tank is near empty since fuel cells don't have internal baffles (am I right about this?) Also, are these tanks DOT legal for that price and will they take the pressure from a fuel injection system return line.

Another possiblilty is to go with some of the aftermarket poly tank companies that produce DOT / Fuel injection/ emissions legal tank. Have not been able to find the right size. These tanks seem to be made mostly for jeeps and light trucks.

Rich

Old Scout · 04-01-2002, 03:17 PM

That's great!

Way · 04-01-2002, 03:37 PM

Rich,

As far as I know, DOT does not make anything legal or not, they just test them and approve the product as safe. As far as I know I haven't ever heard of a state imposing a fuel tank restriction on size or mounting location. I have never researched fuel tanks, so I can't help you with your other questions. If you find out the answers please post back.

If you want to ask someone who knows ask Randy Ellis. He does a lot of custom swaps with fuel tanks etc. I have seen many fuel cells hooked up to 350s.

http://www.randyellisdesign.com (602-803-2755)

Way

P.S. Old Scout glad you see the humor. I was wondering what list member impressions would be.

evilfij · 04-01-2002, 10:48 PM

Rich,

Have you seen the frogs island extended cab?

Also what about a range rover or disco fuel tank.

More volume if thats what you are after.

Ron

evilfij · 04-01-2002, 10:54 PM

One other option is

http://www.foroverforever.com

Anyway, he makes stainless steel tanks very reasonably. I have seen his work, top notch. He also does custom.

Ron

roverhybrids · 04-02-2002, 12:47 AM

How about this tank

14 guage stainless steel.
Do I need DOT for a vegetable oil tank?

rhills · 04-02-2002, 07:20 AM

Wow, what a bunch of nice stainless steel tanks! Thanks. I talked myself into a custom tank last night. After seeing the stainless steel tanks this morning, that sealed the decision.

roverhybrids - which model of the fuel pump did you use? Do you remember what the output pressure and fuel flow is? I assume VDO makes a fuel gage that fits our dash that can be calibrated to what ever sender you use. I have one of their speedo's and like it better than the stock one.

Ron - Is there a link to the frogs island extended cab? I don't think I have seen one. Thanks for the link to foroverforever. He makes some nice stuff.

Rich

RockRover · 04-02-2002, 08:40 AM

Another good option is to talk with Shannon Cambell http://www.cambellent.com

He makes some niiiiice cells and at a reasonable price too...Last time I talked with him he said about $350 for a SS tank, less for aluminum (of course this was the price when we were talkin' chassis too!)

--D

roverhybrids · 04-02-2002, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhills
[B]

roverhybrids - which model of the fuel pump did you use? Do you remember what the output pressure and fuel flow is? I assume VDO makes a fuel gage that fits our dash that can be calibrated to what ever sender you use. I have one of their speedo's and like it better than the stock one.
B]

This setup is actually for a 300tdi. I found a local fab shop that would make some "water" tanks to the dimensions/plans I gave him, along with the fittings and placement of the fittings.
There are a few different sending units available. If you decide to use an aftermaket gauge like a VDO then get the sender to match the guage. I'm not sure the gauge can be recalibrated.
for reference I paid $850 for three tanks.

evilfij · 04-02-2002, 08:02 PM

Hi Rich,

Can't seem to find one on line.

It was in all the LR mags a year or two ago. He used a modified 130 cab to make it. really slick.

Ron

rhills · 04-03-2002, 07:32 AM

A modified 130 cab sounds about right for what I want to do.

Rich

04-01-2002, 12:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
rhills Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Member # 9497 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 123	Fuel Cell: Question for Doug Doug, What did you decide to do about your fuel tank and fuel pump? Rich

04-01-2002, 01:42 PM	#2 (permalink)
RockRover Rock God Join Date: Apr 2001 Member # 4101 Location: Santa Fe Posts: 2,232	Gezz Rich...Kinda a personal question isn't it? Seriously, I'm torn between building an enclosure for my stock tank (recessed in the bed) and just biting the bullet and buying a 16gal from Summit...Thing with the cell is dealing with the pump (Mallory) and all the fittings and such (return, vent, supply)...Then would I need a pusher pump AND a puller pump? Not super complicated, but using the stock tank in a trick enclosure sure would save a BUNCH of work (and $). The cell is the last thing on the to-do list. But that's the two options I'm toying with. --D Note that I didn't even ask you any questions on what your planning?...I'll just keep answering your questions...You know...As the gracious guy I am...No worries...Please don't feel as though you should divulge any of your plans okay? __________________ Hendrix 'X' Chassis #006 http://www.hunt4steve.com/Doug.html

04-01-2002, 03:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
Old Scout IH/Rover Moderator Join Date: Feb 2000 Member # 17 Location: Aptos,Ca Posts: 13,402	That's great! __________________ I like beer. On occasion, I will even drink beer to celebrate a major event such as the fall of communism or the fact that the refrigerator is still working." BUY MY BOAT http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/misc-...e-history.html

04-01-2002, 10:48 PM	#8 (permalink)
evilfij Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Member # 7755 Location: Main Line PA Posts: 1,955	Rich, Have you seen the frogs island extended cab? Also what about a range rover or disco fuel tank. More volume if thats what you are after. Ron __________________ :evil:

04-01-2002, 10:54 PM	#9 (permalink)
evilfij Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Member # 7755 Location: Main Line PA Posts: 1,955	One other option is http://www.foroverforever.com Anyway, he makes stainless steel tanks very reasonably. I have seen his work, top notch. He also does custom. Ron __________________ :evil:

04-01-2002, 02:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
rhills Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Member # 9497 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 123	Doug, This is a high priority item for me since it defines how I make the extended cab. I like the idea of using the stock tank since it is complete and DOT and emissions legal. I could raise it in place, or raise it and move it forward. Either way, we loose a lot of space. A 17 gal. fuel cell would fit a lot better, but one would have to get a fuel pump that runs at 30-40 psi at the right flow rate (so as to not overwhelm the existing pressure regulator/return system) and add lots of fittings to make the tank emissions legal. The third option is to use a fuel tank from an existing vehicle. I'm told that most GM systems use in-tank fuel pumps in the 30-40 psi range. The question is, which one fits. It sure would be nice to find a 7-8" deep one that fits into the space above the a-arm. This is my first choice. The fourth option would be to redo the suspension so that there is only a single upper arm within that space and use a panhard rod. This would require the most work but would also provide the most space. I would rather find a stock tank that keeps my floor lower. Once I decide that I can make a nice looking extended cab (which means actually making at least the tub part of it - which means knowing where the tank goes), then I plan to extend the wheelbase to around 99" by moving the rear axle back. I plan to stay with smaller diameter tires (i.e., 35-36" ) for the next year or so. By the way, I have the tank out now, so I can no longer drive it around on my driveway without the top and bed.

04-01-2002, 02:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
Way Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Member # 9428 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 1,151	I have a friend that did an internet search on fuel cells. He is building a bronco buggy. All of the comapnies he called would make a custom dimension tank with a side fill so that you do not have to fill the tank from the top (like most of the ones I have seen in buggies around here). I would go this route. Quoted price to him for a 20 gallon was around $650! Sounds more cost effective (if you factor in your time) than purchasing chromoly and redoing suspension linkage. One word of advice not to get the anti gas slosh foam stuff. It has been know to degrade and get into the fuel system. Don't know first hand, but I have heard it from several people. Way

04-01-2002, 03:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
rhills Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Member # 9497 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 123	Way, Thanks for the information. I have also read about the foam problems in my internet searches. However, if you eliminate the foam, I'm concerned about fuel pick up problems when the tank is near empty since fuel cells don't have internal baffles (am I right about this?) Also, are these tanks DOT legal for that price and will they take the pressure from a fuel injection system return line. Another possiblilty is to go with some of the aftermarket poly tank companies that produce DOT / Fuel injection/ emissions legal tank. Have not been able to find the right size. These tanks seem to be made mostly for jeeps and light trucks. Rich

04-01-2002, 03:37 PM	#7 (permalink)
Way Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Member # 9428 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 1,151	Rich, As far as I know, DOT does not make anything legal or not, they just test them and approve the product as safe. As far as I know I haven't ever heard of a state imposing a fuel tank restriction on size or mounting location. I have never researched fuel tanks, so I can't help you with your other questions. If you find out the answers please post back. If you want to ask someone who knows ask Randy Ellis. He does a lot of custom swaps with fuel tanks etc. I have seen many fuel cells hooked up to 350s. http://www.randyellisdesign.com (602-803-2755) Way P.S. Old Scout glad you see the humor. I was wondering what list member impressions would be.

04-02-2002, 12:47 AM	#10 (permalink)
roverhybrids Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Member # 3979 Location: redding, ca Posts: 694	How about this tank 14 guage stainless steel. Do I need DOT for a vegetable oil tank? Attached Images

04-02-2002, 07:20 AM	#11 (permalink)
rhills Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Member # 9497 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 123	Wow, what a bunch of nice stainless steel tanks! Thanks. I talked myself into a custom tank last night. After seeing the stainless steel tanks this morning, that sealed the decision. roverhybrids - which model of the fuel pump did you use? Do you remember what the output pressure and fuel flow is? I assume VDO makes a fuel gage that fits our dash that can be calibrated to what ever sender you use. I have one of their speedo's and like it better than the stock one. Ron - Is there a link to the frogs island extended cab? I don't think I have seen one. Thanks for the link to foroverforever. He makes some nice stuff. Rich

04-02-2002, 08:40 AM	#12 (permalink)
RockRover Rock God Join Date: Apr 2001 Member # 4101 Location: Santa Fe Posts: 2,232	Another good option is to talk with Shannon Cambell http://www.cambellent.com He makes some niiiiice cells and at a reasonable price too...Last time I talked with him he said about $350 for a SS tank, less for aluminum (of course this was the price when we were talkin' chassis too!) --D __________________ Hendrix 'X' Chassis #006 http://www.hunt4steve.com/Doug.html

04-02-2002, 08:02 PM	#14 (permalink)
evilfij Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Member # 7755 Location: Main Line PA Posts: 1,955	Hi Rich, Can't seem to find one on line. It was in all the LR mags a year or two ago. He used a modified 130 cab to make it. really slick. Ron __________________ :evil:

04-03-2002, 07:32 AM	#15 (permalink)
rhills Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Member # 9497 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 123	A modified 130 cab sounds about right for what I want to do. Rich

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode