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Old 02-09-2006, 01:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Liquid to air intercooler in a TD

Can anyone school me on the PWR barrel type liquid to air intercoolers? I have room for the heat exchanger in front of my radiator. Fitting the IC unit may be a trick, but I think I can fit it in between the valve cover and the hood, in just about the same position as the hard line from the turbo to the intake manifold.

My truck spikes to 240+ coolant temp on long hot summer hillclimbs at freeway speeds. I've opened up my intake (3.5 inches), and my exhaust(3 inches), and I am about to fit a vacuum guage in the air intake line to the turbo to see how restrictive my intake is.

I've had one guy, who is pretty experienced with Cummins 4bts and SD33s tell me I should just plumb the IC into my coolant lines. But it seems to me that that would mean not getting the coolest air possible when I need it, and also would mean plumbing in shutoff valves so I can not have water running to the IC in the winter.

If I have a separate water system and heat exchanger with an electric water pump, I can swith the system on and off when I like, easily.

So, can anyone offer experience with this type of IC, and if so, what's your vote on how to plumb it?

http://www.horsepowerinabox.com/HPIAB2/category76_1.htm

http://absoluteradiator.com/Intercoolers.asp?idDept=7
(scroll down)

Simon

Edit: The truck is a 109, engine is a Cummins 6at.
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Last edited by Simon; 02-09-2006 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 02-09-2006, 01:30 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I am curious as to why you are looking at a water-air intercooler versus an air-air? Yes the water to air ICs are more efficient and work "better", but as you can see they require quite a bit more work to employ. I would stick with a air-air intercooler and mount it in front of the radiator similarly to the way the 200/300Tdi Defenders do. You will see 80% of the benefit with 50% of the headaches. It is something to consider anyways.
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Old 02-09-2006, 02:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Interesting. I've never seen a Liquid-to Air InterCooler in anything but a boat.
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Old 02-09-2006, 02:49 PM   #4 (permalink)
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if it is a large air-air I hear the volume they take up in air mass can reduce overall power in lighter vehicles like a 109 or something similar. I guess guys are finding that out with their 4BTs I hear. But again hearsay. One guy did gain a lot of power by getting rid of his air-air. But this is what would be nice about a water-air... Cool!
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Old 02-09-2006, 03:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Adam:

Plumbing the air to the air to air around the radiator is a pita. I don't want to do any more ghetto stuff to my truck. Going A to A would require that, or expensive mods to my radiator. I have little room forward of my overkill radiator. I wish to retain the clip I have now, and not go D-90. The engine is long. These factors point to a L to A intercooler.

The liqid to air will be easier to plumb in my opinion, than routing the air plumbing for A to A, and I will have minimal pressure drop because the L to A will fit in more or less line with the existing turbo to manifold air plumbing. I think it will be especially easy if I go with an electric pump and a closed loop separate coolant system. And I can place a small holding tank wherever I want if it turns out the loop and heat exchanger are not up to the job. The separate system will, I think also net me cooler intake air temps because the coolant will be cooler than the engine coolant.

The hardest parts will be placing the heat exchanger and the IC itself (brackets) and running the power for the pump. However, I already have a hot wire for an electric fan integrated into my wire harness, so I am good there.

Andre, I thought some of the 4bts have a coolant to air intercooler unit on them from Cummins? Am I wrong?

Simon
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Old 02-09-2006, 11:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I've been through similar with mine.

At 15psi boost, the charge temps out the turbo are between 120 and 150 degrees celcius.

I have previously used a home made air-water intercooler, but I couldn't get enough conducting area in the air-water heat exchanger, 2.5m of 3/8 copper pipe just wasn't enough.
I could drop the charge temps by only 15%.
I looked hard at getting a smaller air-air intercooler, plating it and flooding it for the air-water setup. But I couldn't find anything in the right dimensions to fit in the engine bay.

Subaru used air-water intercoolers on their older GT and RS cars. I've got the water pump from one of those (wired in with the radiator fans) and I'm using a cabin heater radiator behind the grill for cooling which worked very well.

You've got to be running huge boost to get any benefit from a coolant filled intercooler, at low boost it'll actually be heating your charge air.

I plan to fit an air-air intercooler (bought two nissan skyline coolers), but I'm still accumulating parts so it'll be a while yet.
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:08 AM   #7 (permalink)
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So Dougal, you were running a separate coolant system for the intercooler; not plumbed into the engine coolant? I don;t see how a water to air intercooler with its own water supply and separate radiator in front of the engine coolant radiator could do anything but help?

I think I'll wait and see how things are this summer with the intake and exhaust changes I have made over the winter before I blow more money on the intercooler.

Thanks for the information.

Simon
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Old 02-10-2006, 12:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Are you running an alum radiator and higher pressure cap?

Do you have an EGT installed?
When the engine hits 240 whats the EGT at?

What is the "redline" temp for the CTD?

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Old 02-10-2006, 03:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi Pete. I have an old thread going on the symptoms. EGTs when it hits these temps are acceptably low - around 900-1000 degrees. Rad is a four core dual pass custom rad with a pressurized overflow tank. Not aluminum becuase I've heard enough about them to want to avoid them. Redline temp for this engine (6at) is, if I recall correctly intermittent 225. Operating is 210. This is really a summertime only problem. I'm going to hold off until after this Summer before I pull the trigger on this because I have enough other stuff going on to keep me busy on the truck and in life generally right now. I was just looking for input on the IC to have in the back of my brain pan when it comes time to make a decision to blow some money on this.

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Old 02-10-2006, 03:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I remeber the original thread, I am lazy

I added a heavy duty engine oil cooler with a dedicated fan to my rig and cured my overheating on steap climbs. But now it takes forever to heat up...lots of white smoke for the first couple miles on the way to work. <20* today
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Old 02-10-2006, 03:42 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Yes I had a completely seperate water/coolant circuit for the intercooler.

The "Diesel Engine Reference Book" (Fantastic resource) has an example showing a 6% increase in efficiency with a 60% effective intercooler. On top of that every degree you get out of your intake is a degree cooler in your exhaust and the extra air density means you can burn more fuel (more power) without blowing smoke.

The extra volume in piping in an air-air intercooler will give you a little more lag when accelerating from no boost, but unless you do something hideously wrong you can't reduce your power.
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Old 02-10-2006, 03:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aloharover
I remeber the original thread, I am lazy

I added a heavy duty engine oil cooler with a dedicated fan to my rig and cured my overheating on steap climbs. But now it takes forever to heat up...lots of white smoke for the first couple miles on the way to work. <20* today
Is it an air-oil cooler?
My Isuzu has an oil-water cooler down the side of the block. The advantage is the oil temp is then regulated by the thermostat so cold start isn't any worse. The downside is of course all the heat still goes through the same cooling system so your radiator won't run cooler.

Could you put in a bypass oil line with a valve which you can open up when you're running it hard?

Last edited by Dougal; 02-10-2006 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 02-10-2006, 05:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougal
Is it an air-oil cooler?
My Isuzu has an oil-water cooler down the side of the block. The advantage is the oil temp is then regulated by the thermostat so cold start isn't any worse. The downside is of course all the heat still goes through the same cooling system so your radiator won't run cooler.

Could you put in a bypass oil line with a valve which you can open up when you're running it hard?
Its an air cooler.

I do how ever have a inline oil thermostat installed.
So it's not the oil cooler thats making the engine run cold in the winter, its a combination of everything I did to get it to run cooler in the summer.
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Old 02-11-2006, 01:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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there's a fair bit of info here http://www.are.com.au/Inter/air_to_water.htm that may be of some help.
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Simon
Andre, I thought some of the 4bts have a coolant to air intercooler unit on them from Cummins? Am I wrong?

Simon
Correct. I assumed all the 4BTA's were water-air cooled but my 4BTA came air/air. But in a P30 truck that weighs god knows how much. But correct, you might be able to source these parts somewhere but of course not sure if it'll work on your 6AT
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:44 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Andre, A local guy with experience with the 4bts (he's put a bunch of them in scouts and is putting one in a LR 109 now) assures me the water/air IC from the 4bt will not work with the 6at. I've not looked closel at a 4bt so I don't know why this might be.

Simon
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