NV4500 Rover Adapter

[66gaza]

Rather than hijacking another thread I will ask in a new one. I have a GM NV4500 with a dodge bell & I/P shaft mated to a rover LT230 as this was what I had and luckily it was a post 96 box so same as dodge. For me the GM O/P shaft was easier to mod for a rover LT230. There was a thread recently about this where they went dodge O/P shaft and it cost them on behalf of a customer $2000 , fair enough. I personally paid about 1/2 that for mine and can get the spud shaft off the shelf if I need another. Now to my question why? surely it would be easier to bolt it upto a US tcase, an NP205 from a gen 1 dodge would have the correct drop if you wanted to be all dodge or even an atlas or for $2k a lomax on a GM nv4500. Is it a rover thing or people just want permanent 4wd. I keep asking myself the same question but for me in the UK it is a lot more difficult and therefore easier to justify going for the adapter. What are your thoughts or comments.

Gaza

[64rovr]

I think its a great idea. The LT230 is a great case and theres no reason not to keep it. The one thing I have wanted to see for a long time is a toyota reduction box adapted in front of one. When adapted to a ZF auto in this configuration, everything *should* work out so that the length would be damn near identical after the fact. theres a lot of room to play with output housings and adapters on the back of a ZF.

[RPR]

Gaza,

Good thoughts and questions. Some of the explanation may lie with some people in the effort to "keep it Rover", but I think if one is putting a CTD and NV4500 in your rig, one is already apostate for the purist church. Other possibilities include "I've already got it", another is that the LT230 is one of the few truly beefy (by LR standards) and well built items that Land Rover has produced of its own accord and, when you compare low ratios, the 1.98:1 of the NP205 seems a bit paltry, for example. Also, permanent 4wd may be a consideration. One ought to be able to run all the torque of whatever engine (whether CTD or some Mopar small block for example) needs an NV4500 through a Slaisbury rear, but permanent 4wd will spread the load somewhat and that may be part of the consideration.

In any event, your 6x6 130 is most excellent and I hope you will post a pic and some description here as it is quite an achievement.

[HandBuilt]

Originally Posted by 66gaza

Rather than hijacking another thread I will ask in a new one. I have a GM NV4500 with a dodge bell & I/P shaft mated to a rover LT230 as this was what I had and luckily it was a post 96 box so same as dodge. For me the GM O/P shaft was easier to mod for a rover LT230. There has a thread recently about this where they went dodge O/P shaft and it cost them on behalf of a customer $2000 , fair enough. I personally paid about 1/2 that for mine and can get the spud shaft off the shelf if I need another. Now to my question why? surely it would be easier to bolt it upto a US tcase, an NP205 from a gen 1 dodge would have the correct drop if you wanted to be all dodge or even an atlas or for $2k a lomax on a GM nv4500. Is it a rover thing or people just want permanent 4wd. I keep asking myself the same question but for me in the UK it is a lot more difficult and therefore easier to justify going for the adapter. What are your thoughts or comments.

Gaza

It's a rover thing. For most it has to do with keeping the vehicle as close to stock as possible despite the mods. Hoverhybrids specialises in doing really slick conversions utilizing mostly factory parts. His stuff looks basically factory, very cool. I personally would never pay 2K for an adapter, I would never pay 1K unless it was really nice and took care of the main issue of the LR spud shaft being too small to handle lots of torque. The LT230 is cheap to buy, has 3.32 low range, is easy to adapt, has the right parking brake, and I know them inside out. 205s are big, heavy, no park brake, and 2.1 low range. I cna get LT230s for the same price as a 205, about 100$. The only caveat is they absolutely need to be converted to part time use in my opinion, full time 4wd sucks. With a 35 spline input I think the input shaft issue would be solved.

It's probably also a case of wanting what you don't have, Aussies love our rattle box bag o nails GM turbo 6.5s, Americans love Toyota 1HZ diesels, Canadians like rust free cars (doesn't really matter what they are ), and Icelandic dudes build lifted 4wd Ford E350 vans

[HandBuilt]

Originally Posted by 64rovr

I think its a great idea. The LT230 is a great case and theres no reason not to keep it. The one thing I have wanted to see for a long time is a toyota reduction box adapted in front of one. When adapted to a ZF auto in this configuration, everything *should* work out so that the length would be damn near identical after the fact. theres a lot of room to play with output housings and adapters on the back of a ZF.

I looked into doing a doubler setup with minitruck parts, it's doable but the Toyo mini stuff is just too small for my drivetrain. You would have to move the TC back 6 inches, unless you want to axe the tail housing of the ZF and replace it?

[roverhybrids]

I started out designing the adapter because I thought it would be cheaper than the ~$1200 for the one from marks adapters. And yes i wanted to keep the lt230
I also wanted the adapter it to be short, as short as possible. So my original idea was to just have the output of the Dodge nv4500 shaft replined to the rover tcase. I got quoted locally from a guy that grinds the splines for $200. He said that the hardness of the shaft is likely to be all the way through or close to it so I wouldn't have to deal with re hardening etc.
As I investigated designing it and speaking with a few friends, one of which had adapted the nv4500 to the lt230 using a coupler shaft that had twisted the splines. He sugested that i try and go up in size for strength. This and actually seeing the size difference between the rover OP and the stock Dodge HD OP was enough for me to think the stock rover Op was just too small and weak for my application(the 4BT I'm using is 340# torque in the stock tune If tuned to 200hp will yeild around 500#)

The guy that was suppose to grind the splines called back and said he couldn't do it.

So I contacted Dutchman and did some measuring and decided on broaching the LR IP gear to 32 spline 1.37" and having the output shaft done to match.
To get this done i had to have both the output shaft and the input gear annealed, then rehardened. This ended up costing $1000. This can be done for less if i do more pieces......

I also upgraded the mainshaft to a new version that has a better locking method for 5th gear. $200

Plus the machined aluminum adapter and some mark up if I was going to actually sell these and you should see how it could get to $2K real easy.

My intention with posting the price in the original thread was just saying this is what I did, but it ended up costing more than I wanted...........

[Leafsprung]

I think a lot of us struggle with this question. How custom is too custom in the drive train dept? Its very disappointing to have a custom part fail, it normally means a lot of money, time and effort to replace it. Especially when the custom parts require more elaborate machining processes. Its appealing to be able to replace the component under manufacturers warranty or simply replace it with an off the shelf part at the junkyard or via mail order. I think a lot of people would like to keep the LT230 because its a decent unit with offset drive shafts, park brake, lowish gears and so on. The practicality of retaining it is questionable when replacing the rest of the drive train with non standard components, often with an eye towards serviceability and parts availability. An NV4500 with a 1:1 Lt230 behind it is a great combo, but if something should happen to it, it likely means a lot of down time. I think if I were running an expedition vehicle I would either have the spares to repair any issue on hand, or look at running a factory drive train. An expedition vehicle is not about crawling so the limitation of the 2:1 low of the more common factory combinations is somewhat diminished.

[HandBuilt]

Ike's reasoning is why I've always thought Slade's 14? had a sweet setup with a divorce mounted T case. It's a pretty beefy setup and all the parts are basically off the shelf, no major mods needed to replace. The LT230 input yoke would be a pain to replace but you could get a few of them made up just in case. If I had a 130 it would be no question but at my current wheelbase (112) it is a bit trickier. I always thought that this would be the ideal setup for a truck that saw some long haul highway duty. With a Chevy NV4500 it would be doable in my rig, plus you could even have a spare 2wd driveshaft for really really screwed up breakage (think exploded T case).

I still would rather have an adapted NV4500 / LT230 than be running an LT77 and an LT230, behind any engine...

[revor]

Ike makes a strong point for custom bits that don't break.. Exactly the reason I suggested that the PPR guys do the 700R4 to Atlas rather than do a ZZF to atlas.. The motor adapter is not a likely breaking point.. If the car is a toy and lives close to home it's fun to mess with..I'm quite surprised that some of the stuff we bodged together stayed together but after hearing of Ryan's troubles with his adaptors I figured the way Shane did it is the best.. It's how we always did T18/T19/NP435 to Lt230 years ago..

If you want an offset T case that bolts to a NV4500 take the NP205 and put NP200 guts in it, plus you'll ahve an extra output for/// PTO? 6X6?

[66gaza]

As usual on Pirate excellent varied and thought provoking replies.
RPR thanks for your appreciation.

HandBuilt you have said you must have an LT230 as part time this was to me probably the best reason/excuse to keep the Lt230, you bring up some good points though. My saying Roverhybrids had spent $2k on the adapter wa in no way a criticism just an observation. I have seen the pics of it that he has posted and it looks excellent. Just thinking if another option would have been a better option or not. I do think how he has done it is the best way to connect it to an LT230 though.Have you had any trouble with your DIY LT230 adapter?
I am now thinking that I should sort this out before I break it!!!

Roverhybids was the shaft that was broke a standard ZF shaft or a Marks ?

This is a travel vehicle so a real low tcase is not essential.
I really like the NP205 with NP200 internals idea, can I get a NP205 to bolt up to a GM NV4500 with a RHD? will I need an adapter? or a Dodge NV4500. I understand the dodge NP205 from 1st gen dodges are pretty hard to come by. how hard are the NP200 to come by?

If money was no object what would be the best option for a bullet proof tcase? A disc handbrake can be fit to most of these tcase. but what about speedo drive would an electronic speedo have to be rigged?

I have seen the divorced LT230, very impressive but still has the weak rover I/P shaft problem.

Gaza

[HandBuilt]

Originally Posted by 66gaza

As usual on Pirate excellent varied and thought provoking replies.
RPR thanks for your appreciation.

HandBuilt you have said you must have an LT230 as part time this was to me probably the best reason/excuse to keep the Lt230, you bring up some good points though. My saying Roverhybrids had spent $2k on the adapter wa in no way a criticism just an observation. I have seen the pics of it that he has posted and it looks excellent. Just thinking if another option would have been a better option or not. I do think how he has done it is the best way to connect it to an LT230 though.Have you had any trouble with your DIY LT230 adapter?
I am now thinking that I should sort this out before I break it!!!

Roverhybids was the shaft that was broke a standard ZF shaft or a Marks ?

This is a travel vehicle so a real low tcase is not essential.
I really like the NP205 with NP200 internals idea, can I get a NP205 to bolt up to a GM NV4500 with a RHD? will I need an adapter? or a Dodge NV4500. I understand the dodge NP205 from 1st gen dodges are pretty hard to come by. how hard are the NP200 to come by?

If money was no object what would be the best option for a bullet proof tcase? A disc handbrake can be fit to most of these tcase. but what about speedo drive would an electronic speedo have to be rigged?

I have seen the divorced LT230, very impressive but still has the weak rover I/P shaft problem.

Gaza

Gaza if you want/need an NP205 from a CTD I have one, but a 32 spline output GM box should accept a 32 spline GM 205. They are left side drop, and if you can use the NP200 stuff that would be really strong! Maybe you can run both the 205/200 outputs for your 6x6, that would be sick!

Edit: I was thinking that you could run a divorce mounted T case with a broached input gear, run a larger dia spud shaft - Heck, maybe even one of those super cheap Dana 60 outers (35 spline) could be used with the appropriate conversion U joint...

[krazz1e]

Originally Posted by revor

Ike makes a strong point for custom bits that don't break.. Exactly the reason I suggested that the PPR guys do the 700R4 to Atlas rather than do a ZZF to atlas.. The motor adapter is not a likely breaking point.. If the car is a toy and lives close to home it's fun to mess with..I'm quite surprised that some of the stuff we bodged together stayed together but after hearing of Ryan's troubles with his adaptors I figured the way Shane did it is the best.. It's how we always did T18/T19/NP435 to Lt230 years ago..

If you want an offset T case that bolts to a NV4500 take the NP205 and put NP200 guts in it, plus you'll ahve an extra output for/// PTO? 6X6?

Ummm.. for the 700r4 to work you need a adapter plate for the engine, plus for the 700r4 you need an adapter plate for the atlas, I wouldn't call these "off the shelf items" either. For the ZF to Atlas you just need 1 adapter plate. I don't follow your logic.... If you are going 700r4 why not trash the rover engine and go with a standard GM engine.

If you are changing the tranny out with a GMNV4500 why keep the LT230? sure it's a descent t-case with good stock gearing but surely there are other t-cases out there, d300, or say a stak or an atlas. By the time you fuck with all the plates and stub shafts you can get a stak or atlas that has much more range options than a LT230 and is stronger. Sure you got the rear offset to worry about, but that is simple solution. There are dozen of cheap choices for the rear end that have a centered diff.

What's wrong with the ZF tranny anyhow? Unless your pumping lots of horse through it I don't see the point in spending the time/$ there.

[66gaza]

Originally Posted by HandBuilt

Gaza if you want/need an NP205 from a CTD I have one, but a 32 spline output GM box should accept a 32 spline GM 205. They are left side drop, and if you can use the NP200 stuff that would be really strong! Maybe you can run both the 205/200 outputs for your 6x6, that would be sick!

Edit: I was thinking that you could run a divorce mounted T case with a broached input gear, run a larger dia spud shaft - Heck, maybe even one of those super cheap Dana 60 outers (35 spline) could be used with the appropriate conversion U joint...

HandBuilt I am interested in the dodge np205 is it the 29 spline version? if it is how much do you want for it? using it and a np200 for 6x6 really apeals to me.
If I do use an NP205 I will definitely have to upgrade the middle salisbury , you will have to school me on the details.
Gaza

[Leafsprung]

I had considered using the NP205 with NP200 internals in combination with the lomax kit. Would make a nice t-case, but Ive been too busy to do the legwork to see if it would actually work w/ lomax, and no one else seems to know.

[pendy]

Shane I was talking to Ryan S about this today. Before I gave in and bought the Marks kit, I almost took the route you are pursueing. Rob Dassler Southwest Rover spoke with the manufacturers of the input gears for LR. They considered doing a run of the input gear with the ID splines to suit the NV 4500 output. It would have to be a run of 10 - 20 or more I would guess. If this works out and there is more demand to do this keep that in mind. They would harden the gears after the initial broaching. I'd like to see this as an option available for LR conversions.

Jim Pendleton

[revor]

Originally Posted by Leafsprung

I had considered using the NP205 with NP200 internals in combination with the lomax kit. Would make a nice t-case, but Ive been too busy to do the legwork to see if it would actually work w/ lomax, and no one else seems to know.

I've looked into it and got a lot of 'kickin the dirt' it should work.. It's been a long time but I've rebuilt both a 200 (from an M37 I had) and a friends 205 later.. Seems to me that when I rebuilt the 205 I was amazed about how similar they are, but that was the extent of my recollection.


The point of changing the transmission is that there are no custom "breakables" the custom spud shaft in a "something to LT230" conversion is suspect unless made out of a crazy material, even still it makes more sense to me to work with stronger factory components.. If one is going to go race (and finish) or expedition across nowhere it is nice to have a standard part that if fails is easily obtainable.. What Shane has done is the Best of both worlds.

The ZF is an okay transmission and will hold up to the power any Rover motor can put out but in case of someone wanting to mess with the transmission why not a 700r4 of which there are hundreds of aftermarket accesories, from shift kits to manual valve bodies..

[HandBuilt]

Originally Posted by pendy

Shane I was talking to Ryan S about this today. Before I gave in and bought the Marks kit, I almost took the route you are pursueing. Rob Dassler Southwest Rover spoke with the manufacturers of the input gears for LR. They considered doing a run of the input gear with the ID splines to suit the NV 4500 output. It would have to be a run of 10 - 20 or more I would guess. If this works out and there is more demand to do this keep that in mind. They would harden the gears after the initial broaching. I'd like to see this as an option available for LR conversions.

Jim Pendleton

Great idea, the only issue I see is what spline. It would be nice to have a spline count that can be used for more than one application. As I stated the NV4500 2wd chev output shaft is 35 spline. The Dodges are 30/31. The 4wd spline counts don't really work as you need a spud shaft anyways (no stickout), so for the NV4500 the 35 spline count would work OK. When dealing with other trannies though, 35 doesn't make much sense, Chevy TH400/ 700R4 is 32, Dodge autos are 23/29, etc, again, the issue is that these trannies don't have enough output shaft protrusion.

http://www.kenlowe.com.au/driveshaft...and_covers.htm

This is what I was thinking - What would be sweet is to have a 35 spline LT230 input gear, and these drag car couplers -Use a 35 spline female coupler and splined shaft for the T case input gear, and the appropriate male coupler for the trans. Instant cross compatibility for any and all transmissions. Want a 23 spline 727 adapted to an LT230? Done. Want a 32 spline SM465 adapted instead? Done. And, if someone sold a laser-cut TL230 mounting plate, adapting would be a cinch.

I don't know how much long term reliability these couplers would provide but I'd be willing to bet they are pretty hard and they could take a beating.

35 spline may be a little too big though - Perhaps something slightly smaller, although I think 35 spline is the best if this coupler thing flies. Hell I am willing ot be the guinea pig if I can get one of these input gears...

[revor]

35 spline may be a little too big though - Perhaps something slightly smaller,
I think when I measured last there was only enough meat for the 32 spline..

[HandBuilt]

Originally Posted by revor

35 spline may be a little too big though - Perhaps something slightly smaller,
I think when I measured last there was only enough meat for the 32 spline..

I know, problem is 32 spline nets nothing off-the shelf as far as adaptability... Maybe 30 spline? Still not off-the shelf but it works with these drag car couplers

[HandBuilt]

Originally Posted by 66gaza

HandBuilt I am interested in the dodge np205 is it the 29 spline version? if it is how much do you want for it? using it and a np200 for 6x6 really apeals to me.
If I do use an NP205 I will definitely have to upgrade the middle salisbury , you will have to school me on the details.
Gaza

Yeah It's a 29 spline version from a 1993 W250 Dodge. The truck had a million KM (looked like it) so no guarantees. I have no idea how to use it with an NP200, you would have to find that out on your own, unfortunately. Send me a PM if you want to try and figure something out. I can't imagine shipping this thing to the UK, but then again, people import LT77s here!

[revor]

"people import LT77s here!" SAY IT ISN'T SO!!

I can look into some other dimensions.. I have lots of spline cross sections laying around... Imagine that...

[dieselcruiserhead]

For what its worth, if anyone builds a 29 spline NV4500 to a LT230, I'll take one as long as its hopefully $600 or less. If you guys want to start researching it we have a ton of badass fairly inexpensive fab and machine shops (that make a lot of components for Marlin adapters and Advance Adapters for example) right here in Utah. I would be glad to help setup maybe. Novak, up in Logan, which makes Jeep adapters, has offered to produce weird adapters for me before, for what its worth, for pretty reasonable and great terms (you own the design).

My only other option personally is a Dana 300 and having a crap centered output and my offset rear axle. I would really dig the MT230 for that reason. Really the only thing I am not liking about the truck I am currently building.. Using a JB Conversions input gear to get the 29 spline input in the Dana 300.. This would be a possible option too I suppose (I do not know the LT230s well enough). The 23 spline is a small diameter, the 29 tolerable and the 32 spline GM is huge.. You can swap input shafts the NV4500s too, for what its worth..

[dieselcruiserhead]

Back to the top for this.

I am still investigating the 29 spline NV4500/5600 plate adapter / custom input gear option for hte LT230. My setup is basically the rear of a NV4500 (but it is a NV5600 so advance adapter 4500 adapters won't work) so I need a plate adapter. I also would like 2.7 low range or higher and at least 1:1 high range or some overdrive.

I am also considering the NP200 - 205 option too. If the lowmax gears fit then awesome... But I have done some weird messing around of t case stuff and ordered all sorts of stuff and have been burned with ordering stuff that may or may not work. The 2:1 of the 205 would suck but the 3:1 would be killer...


Trying to get this nailed down soon as I am about to give up and basically pull the trigger on a Dana 300 input gear setup and just run a crooked driveshaft.



If you guys have any opinions let me know... Here is a thread I posted today in General 4x4.
/forum/general-4x4-discussion/647856-np-200-np-205-combo-old-school-revisited.html

[HandBuilt]

My plan was to use a 35 spline Chevy 2wd output shaft. The 29 spline doesn't sound like a good match as it is a spline size used for slip yoke applications in Dodge trannies, therefore it may not be common as it may use an odd pressure angle, and it's OD is basically the same as the 35 spline. I haven't measured the spline from the Chevy output but I suspect (based on measurements that are online) that it's the same pattern as is used on the rest of driveline applications such as drive flanges and the like (chevy has a fixed yoke). I measured up an LT230 input gear and a 35 spline broach definitely takes a lot of material out of the gear. That was where I quit as I am really liking my auto, and I have other fish to fry before I start pulling trannies (I may just stick with an auto as well).

I don't think anyone is going to pull the trigger and build a 29 spline adapter commercially - The NV4500 has better options for spline patterns that have more cross-compatibility (23, 32 or 35). I suspect you would be on your own with respect to the NV5600 output shaft to input gear mating. If you could find someone with a 29 spline broach that has the same pattern as the output you could probably just do a one-off LT230 gear.

[roverhybrids]

I'm checking into getting a 300m coupler shaft made to work with a dodge heavy duty 4x4 output and the rover lt230 input gear...............