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Old 04-05-2012, 12:31 PM   #351 (permalink)
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Why are we bickering amongst ourselves???

What's happened has happened; it's water under the bridge. We're all in this shitty situation together, where we're in the right, but the 800lb gorilla has "legally" stolen our last banana. What are we going to do to get it back?

Let's work together to formulate a plan. Let's get BRC, CORVA, Cal4Wheel, UFWDA, and anyone else who wants to join in the fight to work together instead of simply pointing fingers of blame at our own brothers and sisters.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:34 PM   #352 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Brothergrim View Post
P.S. the Alamo was a Mexicans territory before the Texans push them out. The Mexicans were just defending the lands.
Attempting to re-gain, not defend.
Texans were defending what they "stole".





Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothergrim View Post
Cal4wheel and BRC
How is it ILLEGAL when a Federal judge says it is?
A Federal judge saying "it is so" does not make it final.

Again, checks and balances. The Judicial is not the top of the 3-part system of Government. It is equal to legislative and executive.

Sadly, one of the other two branches is unlikely to help us overturn it, and the other (legislative) is too slow to overturn the ruling...waiting out the new study will be faster.

Am I splitting hairs?

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Old 04-05-2012, 12:37 PM   #353 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wheelin4 View Post
The Calaveras Enterprise contacted me after my emails last night and want to do a REAL story (not just reposting the order from the USFS site). I don't know enough about land-use issues/law to represent our side well.

Can a few of you who are heavily involved PM me so I can give you the contact information?

Thanks!
I hope you have gotten some PM's on this. The public NEEDS to know what is going on and I only wish I could give all the proper info for you. Time for me to get more involved, and thank you for getting this out.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:43 PM   #354 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MT4Runner View Post
Am I splitting hairs?
Not at all

The more public info the better. If its behind closed doors, it usually stays behind closed doors.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:47 PM   #355 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kf6zpl View Post
You are one of those claiming lack of local involvement. Seems to me you are one of the "locals" that did have a part in the discussions...

Like I said, intellectual honesty would go along way towards moving the thread from a "trash everyone" tone to something that would be constructive.
I stated in the first page of this thread my involvement. I also stated that after this e-mail there was no more communication between us, and that I had forwarded what I didn't know to Rick and he helped finish up the areas he knew.

I don't feel that I was dishonest in any way. I was not involved other than providing you the following information about the trails on the list, which are below in red.

Quote:


Eldorado NF Route Info
Inbox
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John Stewart jstewart@mac.com

7/20/11 6:26PM

to me

Below is a list of routes within the Eldorado NF. Each route number has a brief description. I need to know which ones are high value recreation and if any are connectors between route segments or other routes.

I am looking for as much info as possible about each route. BTW, time is short so I would like info ASAP. Thanks...


9N95 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
9N83 Clover Valley/Deer Valley Trail; 4WD connector between Hwy 88 and Hwy 4; route recognized in Mokelumne Wilderness designation
9N82 Squaw Ridge and access to western portion of Mokelumne Wilderness
9N54 Access to Leoni Meadows
9N15 Access to Calif. Depít of Fish and Game land at Leeks Spring
9N08 Access to Stockton Municipal Organization Camp
9N04 Access to Squaw Ridge and western portion of Mokelumne Wilderness
9N01 Access to Meadow Lake and dispersed camping
8N35 Access for dispersed recreation
8N23B Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
17E28 Motorcycle trail connection between Mud Lake and Long Valley (Bear River Reservoir Area)
17E24 Connects Mud Lake to Squaw Ridge
17E21 Connects Horse Canyon motorcycle trail with Squaw Ridge, Allenís Camp trail, etc.
17E19 Allenís Camp motorcycle trail
17E17 Bucks Pasture motorcycle trail
17E16 Motorcycle trail to Little Round Top
17E12 Motorcycle trail to Lovers Leap
14N58 Access for dispersed recreation. Meadows on private land at the start of the road and one meadow on NFS land.
14N39 Access to Richardson Lake; significant for dispersed recreation; meadow crossings on both private and public land
14N27 Access to Bunker Hill Lookout and beyond; Route crosses public and private land
14N05 Access to County maintained toilets along Rubicon 4WD Trail; meadow crossings on both private and public land
13N24 Access to Rubicon River and Deer Creek Trail
12NY15 Access for dispersed recreation
12NY06 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
11NY32 Access to Aspen Creek Recreation Residence Tract; the road through the meadow on public land is no longer used
11N70 Access for dispersed recreation
11N26F Barrett Lake 4WD Trail; rerouted around some of the meadows and stream crossing
11N23F Provides an extension to the Long Canyon 4WD Trail
11N22 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
11N09A Access to Sayles Canyon Trailhead
10NY06 Portion of the Long Canyon 4WD Trail
10NY05 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
10NY04 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
10N98 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
10N32 Access for dispersed recreation
10N26 Access to Cody Lake Trailhead, access to Cody Lake and Cody Lake Boy Scout Camp
10N21 Long Canyon 4WD Trail, popular 4WD trail away from other dispersed uses
10N14 Access to Bucks Pasture Trail
10N13 Strawberry 4WD Trail and portion of road connecting County Road with Strawberry Trail; significant recreation opportunity that is popular with multiple user groups
10N06 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
10N03 Access to Devilís Gate Recreation Residence Tract
10N01 Access for dispersed camping near Carson Pass (adjacent to Hwy 88)


------------------
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************************************************** *************

7/20/11 10:29PM

Jacquelyne Theisen to John


9N95 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation Do not know it



9N83 Clover Valley/Deer Valley Trail; 4WD connector between Hwy 88 and Hwy 4; route recognized in Mokelumne Wilderness designation


Very popular tail, adopted by Del's Club - Motherlode Rockcrawlers. 2 creek crossings, goes from loamy soils and thick mixed conifer to a most granitic obstacle strewn trail as it connects in Hermit Valley (HWY 4) I would say it has a very high recreational value - at least 2 clubs run events annually.

Link to Trail Review with photos
http://www.californiajeeper.com/deerval/review.htm

Link to Trail Maps
http://www.californiajeeper.com/deerval/trail-maps.htm



9N82 Squaw Ridge and access to western portion of Mokelumne Wilderness


Highly Valuable trail. Provides multiple levels of challenge, terrain, recreation.

AKA Pardoe Trail
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/forestvisito...ldorado/14.php


Link to Trail description with photos
http://www.californiajeeper.com/pardoe/review.htm

Link to trail maps
http://www.californiajeeper.com/pardoe/pardoe.pdf


All of these trail create loops an allow lesser equipped vehicles to stay within their capabilities. There is a wide variety of difficulty levels. Highly valuable area. I have not personally been to each of these trails but I can say it is valuable to keep them for variety and exploration value.


17E24 Connects Mud Lake to Squaw Ridge
9N54 Access to Leoni Meadows

9N15 Access to Calif. Depít of Fish and Game land at Leeks Spring
9N08 Access to Stockton Municipal Organization Camp
9N04 Access to Squaw Ridge and western portion of Mokelumne Wilderness
9N01 Access to Meadow Lake and dispersed camping
8N35 Access for dispersed recreation
8N23B Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
17E28 Motorcycle trail connection between Mud Lake and Long Valley (Bear River Reservoir Area)
17E21 Connects Horse Canyon motorcycle trail with Squaw Ridge, Allenís Camp trail, etc.


I do not know the motorcycle trails

17E19 Allenís Camp motorcycle trail
17E17 Bucks Pasture motorcycle trail
17E16 Motorcycle trail to Little Round Top
17E12 Motorcycle trail to Lovers Leap


Rubicon Trail Area:

14N58 Access for dispersed recreation. Meadows on private land at the start of the road and one meadow on NFS land.

AKA Jerret Peak trail
Used to (and still does) allow access to Bugle Lake from 14N05. Not challenging at all however the scenic value and recreational value are very high. Trail leading from FS property to Bugle Lake is on Private land, there are no barriers, Sierra Pacific Industries allows access.

Link to Map:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/forestvisito...ldorado/03.php

14N39 Access to Richardson Lake; significant for dispersed recreation; meadow crossings on both private and public land


AKA Sourdough Trail
This is a very popular trail for users who use it as a base camp to access the Tahoe side of the Rubicon Trail.


Link to map:
http://www.californiajeeper.com/rubicon/rubicon.pdf



14N27 Access to Bunker Hill Lookout and beyond; Route crosses public and private land


Excellent route for novice riders and jeepers, high scenic value, great for exploration, high historical value.



14N05 Access to County maintained toilets along Rubicon 4WD Trail; meadow crossings on both private and public land


AKA McKinstry Trail
Very high value allows access to McKinstry Lake, Jerret Peak, Bugle Lake. Also connects with 14N34B the Ellis Creek trail, which is long used bail out for the Rubicon Trail.



13N24 Access to Rubicon River and Deer Creek Trail


Excellent Stream fishing, high recreational value, not highly used except for those of us who know the area well.


11N26F Barrett Lake 4WD Trail; rerouted around some of the meadows and stream crossing

Highly prized trail - difficult obstacles, very limited traffic, limited vehicle width, very short open season, has been under a seasonal closure for approximately 20 years. Well maintained and funded.

Link to Trail overview:
http://hi-landers.com/BLT/BLT.html

Link to map:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/forestvisito...ldorado/08.php



12NY15 Access for dispersed recreation

Do not know this one


12NY06 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation

Do not know this one

This entire area I would defer to Rick Ferdon:

11NY32 Access to Aspen Creek Recreation Residence Tract; the road through the meadow on public land is no longer used
11N70 Access for dispersed recreation
11N23F Provides an extension to the Long Canyon 4WD Trail
11N22 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
11N09A Access to Sayles Canyon Trailhead
10NY06 Portion of the Long Canyon 4WD Trail
10NY05 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
10NY04 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
10N98 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
10N32 Access for dispersed recreation
10N26 Access to Cody Lake Trailhead, access to Cody Lake and Cody Lake Boy Scout Camp
10N21 Long Canyon 4WD Trail, popular 4WD trail away from other dispersed uses
10N14 Access to Bucks Pasture Trail
10N06 Route appears to be used for general dispersed recreation
10N03 Access to Devilís Gate Recreation Residence Tract
10N01 Access for dispersed camping near Carson Pass (adjacent to Hwy 88)

10N13 Strawberry 4WD Trail and portion of road connecting County Road with Strawberry Trail; significant recreation opportunity that is popular with multiple user groups

> Highly valuable - Capital City Mountain Goats Adopt a Trail, well maintained. Run North to south from hwy 50 to 88 and ends at Caples Lake.
>
> This trail is what I call part of the High Sierra Marathon. I have always wanted to take a week and run Fordyce - Soda Springs - Hell Hole - Rubicon - Barrett - Strawberry, Deer Valley and end at Slick Rock - you could keep going, but I'm not sure a vehicle could survive it.
>
> Anyway, it has a very high scenic value, provides moderate challenge, has few obstacles.
>
> Link to trail review and photos:
> http://www.norcalttora.com/trails/strawberry.php


> Most of these trail are non negotiable, we've already lost too much.
>
> Thank you for all you do.
>
> Bebe


************************************************** *************

Jacquelyne Theisen to John 7/21/11 2:49PM

Just wanted to make sure you got this.

************************************************** *************


7/21/11 2:58PM

to me

Sorry. Should have let you know. Thanks, it was a big help.

John Stewart
Editor, 4x4Wire.com

John Stewart
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************************************************** *************

Jacquelyne Theisen

7/21/11 3:05PM

to jstewart

OK - just checking.

************************************************** *************


7/21/11 4:55PM

to me

Between conference calls, water quality, GIS research, and statistical analysis, I am keeping busy.

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Old 04-05-2012, 12:47 PM   #356 (permalink)
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Why are we so fast to blame organizations like CA4WDC and BRC when we all should be banding together to fight the real enemy. People like Karen S., CBD and all the other enviro-idoits out there. United we stand devided we fall. Its a old saying but its very true. Put aside your disagreements, your envy, your hatred or whatever keeps us apart and lets start working together or we will have nothing left.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:48 PM   #357 (permalink)
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The repeated references to 'crossing meadows' implies some sort of southern mud bogging not treading lightly free-for-all rather than staying on the designated and established well defined high and dry packed route.

We have a perception problem: ask a non OHV fan: Is it OK to drive across a sensitive meadow? of course they will say no perhaps not knowing there is a well defined high and dry established road.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:52 PM   #358 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renolaw View Post

We have a perception problem: ask a non OHV fan: Is it OK to drive across a sensitive meadow? of course they will say no perhaps not knowing there is a well defined high and dry established road.
That's why our orgs were in the back room negotiating, so there would be no perception problems.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:54 PM   #359 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandraider View Post
Why are we so fast to blame organizations like CA4WDC and BRC when we all should be banding together to fight the real enemy. People like Karen S., CBD and all the other enviro-idoits out there. United we stand devided we fall. Its a old saying but its very true. Put aside your disagreements, your envy, your hatred or whatever keeps us apart and lets start working together or we will have nothing left.
What are we blaming them for???? I'm lost, a couple of times now folks say we are blaming them....

I will say we are pissed about the lack of updates, but beyond that I think we are pissed at the FS and the Judge....am I wrong?
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:55 PM   #360 (permalink)
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I emailed McClintock the other day. Still waiting for a response. I'm not sure if he's aware of this particular situation or not but I know he is on our side of the issue. I don't know if there's anything he can do but at the very least it would be nice if knew what was going on and could maybe shed some light on the topic.
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Old 04-05-2012, 01:19 PM   #361 (permalink)
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Old 04-05-2012, 01:21 PM   #362 (permalink)
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What are we blaming them for???? I'm lost, a couple of times now folks say we are blaming them....

I will say we are pissed about the lack of updates, but beyond that I think we are pissed at the FS and the Judge....am I wrong?
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Old 04-05-2012, 01:35 PM   #363 (permalink)
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By the way, check out this thread on BRC's website with some of the Eldo stuff, in particular their (our) pitch for help back in May 2011 asking for help to stop the storm of closures on the Eldo: https://www.sharetrails.org/search/node/eldorado

Bebe, Lyin' King or Kurt (part of the BRC KAT Team) probably posted and blabbed on these more than once.

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Old 04-05-2012, 01:45 PM   #364 (permalink)
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I emailed McClintock the other day. Still waiting for a response. I'm not sure if he's aware of this particular situation or not but I know he is on our side of the issue. I don't know if there's anything he can do but at the very least it would be nice if knew what was going on and could maybe shed some light on the topic.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=168
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:14 PM   #365 (permalink)
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By the way, check out this thread on BRC's website with some of the Eldo stuff, in particular their (our) pitch for help back in May 2011 asking for help to stop the storm of closures on the Eldo: https://www.sharetrails.org/search/node/eldorado

Bebe, Lyin' King or Kurt (part of the BRC KAT Team) probably posted and blabbed on these more than once.

Del
Dang, blew my cover . . . guess I'm going to have to release all of our personal email conversations since early in the past decade plus pictures of you and Stacie shooting a BRC promo video on private property I hosted.

NOT!!!

Thanks Del for all that you, Don, Greg, John, Jim, Jeff, Chris, Sylvia, Peter, Justin, Mike and every other pro-access advocate individual/group I know who fight the fight and make themselves available to individuals like me for conversations about the issues 7/24/365.

I cannot, will not and would not presume to speak for others in this thread.
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Old 04-05-2012, 03:12 PM   #366 (permalink)
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At this point it would be good if everyone knew which clubs have adopted which trails. I hope the Forest Service know who's who, or land manager and if not we can get that sorted out. Maybe BRC or Cal4wheel has this list?


I listed them by name vs number.

here a link to xls spread sheet. http://www.ihonlynorth.com/forums/at...rails-name.xls

Route No Name......................... Adopted by club
08N23B:Prothro Headwater :
08N35:.Upper West Panther :
09N01:.Blue Lakes :
9N04:..Pardoe 4WD :Motherlode Rockcrawlers 4x4 club
09N08:.Stockton Camp
09N15:.Leek Springs Valley
09N54:.Leoni
9N82:..Squaw Ridge 4WD Trail : Motherlode Rockcrawlers 4x4 club
09N83:.Clover Valley/Deer Valley Trail : South County Trail Riders
09N95:.Cosumnes Head
10N01:.Spur off Woods Lake
10N03:.Devil’s Gate Sumer Home
10N06:.Pebble Ridge
10N13:.Strawberry 4WD Trail
10N14:.Mule Canyon
10N21:.Long Canyon 4WD Trail : Sierra Treasure Hunters
10N26:.Sciots Creek
10N32:.South Beanville Creek
10N98:.Jim Quinn Spur
10NY04:Middle Long Canyon
10NY05:Rocky Road
10NY06:Upper Long Canyon
11N09A:Bryan Creek
11N22:.Strawberry Creek : Gold Hills Posse
11N23F:North Shanty Spur
11N26F:Barrett lake 4WD Trail : Hi-Landers
11N70:.McManus
11NY32:47 Milestone
12NY06:Crystal Shortcut
12NY15:West Robbs Peak
13N24:.Dry Lakes
14N05:.McKinstry Lake
14N27:.Bunker Meadow
14N39:.Richardson Lake 4WD
14N58:.Jerrett Peak
17E12:.Motorcycle Trail to Lover's Leap
17E16:.Little Round Top
17E17:.Bucks Pasture motorcycle trail
17E19:.Allen's Camp motorcycle trail
17E21:.Horse Canyon motorcycle trail
17E24:.Carson Emigrant Trail : Motherlode Rockcrawlers 4x4 club
17E28:.Long Valley motorcycle trail

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Old 04-05-2012, 03:20 PM   #367 (permalink)
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At this point it would be good if everyone knew which clubs have adopted which trails. I hope the Forest Service know who's who, or land manager and if not we can get that sorted out. Maybe BRC or Cal4wheel has this list?


I listed them by name vs number.

here a link to xls spread sheet. http://www.ihonlynorth.com/forums/at...rails-name.xls
A consolidated list does not exist. Having one would be an important data element.
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Old 04-05-2012, 03:44 PM   #368 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R290 View Post
At this point it would be good if everyone knew which clubs have adopted which trails. I hope the Forest Service know who's who, or land manager and if not we can get that sorted out. Maybe BRC or Cal4wheel has this list?
I have listed it before but good luck finding anything in this thread now

Barrett Lake 4WD
Hi-Landers

Strawberry Creek 4WD
Gold Hills Posse

Deer Valley 4WD
South County Trail Riders

Squaw Ridge (Pardoe 4WD)
Mud Lake
Onion Valley
Porthole Gap 17E24
Motherload Rock Crawlers

Long Canyon 4WD
Sierra Treasure Hunters

Plummer Ridge (not affected)
Sacramento Jeepers

Hell Hole Trail (not affected)
Capitol City Mountain Goats

any others?

I will adopt the rest
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Last edited by WLDWUN; 04-05-2012 at 04:27 PM. Reason: added 1 trail
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:05 PM   #369 (permalink)
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Phew!!!
Hell Hole is NOT on the list!!!!!
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:10 PM   #370 (permalink)
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What are we blaming them for????
I will say we are pissed about the lack of updates, but beyond that I think we are pissed at the FS and the Judge....am I wrong?
You're not wrong. There's plenty of defensiveness, frustration, and reaction in this thread, but I don't see blame for these closures.

FWIW, while I'm bummed about the lack of open communication and accountability from those organizations sitting at the settlement table, my pisstivity focuses primarily on USFS who didn't do sufficient work during Travel Management for their Route Designation efforts to survive closure scrutiny and the greenies that keep pushing iterative closures.

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Old 04-05-2012, 04:15 PM   #371 (permalink)
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You're not wrong. There's plenty of defensiveness, frustration, and reaction in this thread, but I don't see blame for these closures.

FWIW, while I'm bummed about the lack of open communication and accountability from those organizations sitting at the settlement table, my pisstivity focuses primarily on USFS who didn't do sufficient work during Travel Management for their Route Designation efforts to survive closure scrutiny and the greenies that keep pushing iterative closures.

Randii
I've always thought they did a crappy job, in a sneaky way, so that they don't have to be the bad guy....pity-ful.

Kind of like when your husband does the dishes and leaves food all over them, he knows you're not going to ask him to do them again.
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:37 PM   #372 (permalink)
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Isn't Hell Hole in TNF?
Sad to say it, but if it works in ENF, it should work in any of the USNF.
Think of all the other trails that cross stream, meadows, and 'wetlands'.
High Lakes, Fordyce, Dusy, God the list goes on for ever.
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:38 PM   #373 (permalink)
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Isn't Hell Hole in TNF?
nope
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:43 PM   #374 (permalink)
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Thank you, I stand corrected. I was only 3 miles off.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:12 PM   #375 (permalink)
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I've always thought they did a crappy job, in a sneaky way, so that they don't have to be the bad guy....pity-ful.

Kind of like when your husband does the dishes and leaves food all over them, he knows you're not going to ask him to do them again.
Well, maybe, but considering that the goal of folks like the CBD is to achieve full and permanent closure of any OHV routes, it wouldn't matter if the FS had a more solid EIS - the CBD will keep filing suits to keep chipping away.

Note also that when the CBD wins a lawsuit, you, the taxpayer, typically get to pay for their legal expenses of brining the suit. This is how they are able to keep their seemingly never ending flow of lawsuits going. Its twisted...

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