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Old 05-22-2012, 11:03 AM   #426 (permalink)
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I was doing some work up at my parents cabin in Arnold over the weekend & a neighbor/friend up there was telling me about Tombstone Arizona....

A recent fire eliminated vegetation. Lack of vegetation this winter cause mud, land, & rock slides which subsequently destroyed all the water pipelines to the town.

A suit by our friends regarding the spotted owl has denied them the use of motorized vehicles or machinery to repair the pipes (some under 12 feet of rocks & dirt).

They must use hand tools & pack animals!

http://twitchy.com/2012/05/12/federa...without-water/
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:59 AM   #427 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MochaMike View Post
I was doing some work up at my parents cabin in Arnold over the weekend & a neighbor/friend up there was telling me about Tombstone Arizona....

A recent fire eliminated vegetation. Lack of vegetation this winter cause mud, land, & rock slides which subsequently destroyed all the water pipelines to the town.

A suit by our friends regarding the spotted owl has denied them the use of motorized vehicles or machinery to repair the pipes (some under 12 feet of rocks & dirt).

They must use hand tools & pack animals!

http://twitchy.com/2012/05/12/federa...without-water/
Started by Bebe a while back. Thanks for bringing the owl in

/forum/land-use-issues/1059042-tombstone-versus-united-states-water-again.html
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:55 PM   #428 (permalink)
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I like how detailed and professional that map is. Is that Microsoft paint or kidpix? Seems like a reflection of their questionable "science".
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:06 PM   #429 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fermentor View Post
Started by Bebe a while back. Thanks for bringing the owl in

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1059042
Thanks. I figured it would be on here somewhere.

Mine main point was that a neighbor, who does not wheel & has limit contact/info about these groups have even heard about their BS lawsuits.
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:00 AM   #430 (permalink)
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I may have missed this somewhere in the thread, but is there a definitive answer that the part of the Deer Valley trail that's in the Stanislaus National Forest will remain open? Short of installing another gate where the two forests meet I am not sure how they'd regulate people running in and back out to the Highway 4 side.
I wanted to follow up and add some new information. I stopped in at the Calaveras Ranger District office last Thursday and had a talk with the folks there about Deer Valley. There is a gate on the trail at the boundary between the Stanislaus National Forest and the Eldorado National Forest, and it is closed/locked. It is approximately 1 mile into the trail when heading in from Highway 4, and that is well before the popular camping spots. So while it is legal to run in from the south entrance, you won't get far and won't likely be able to camp along the trail.
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Old 05-28-2012, 02:26 PM   #431 (permalink)
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The government in action....


The liberal environmentalist have infiltrated the Forrest service & the judicial system. They will not be happy until all the public lands are closed to all, including, Horses ,4x4, bicycles, snowmobiles, cars & wheel chairs.
Please tell all your friends & families to consider not supporting the liberals, with their sierra club friendly agenda in the next election.
They have slowly closed many of the trails & campsites that I have been using with my family for 50 years.
Every few years there are more closures or use restrictions, this must stop or there will be nothing left., but the left....
Please tell all your friends & families to consider not supporting the liberals, with their Sierra Club friendly agenda in the next election.
The future of our freedom depends on this...

PLEASE VOTE
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:02 PM   #432 (permalink)
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I just posted this on my clubs forum:

There is supposed to be a gate at the border of the Stanislaus and El Dorado forests, about a mile in. From what I gathered from being on the trail (Deer Valley) and talking to the people on the trail today, there is no gate at all.

I wheeled in just under a mile from the Highway 4 side today, making it just past our (clubs) usual lunch spot at the top of the first ridge. GPS says we turned around .9 miles in. On my way back down, we stopped and talked to some people working their way up. I picked their brains a bit about the trail closures and they said that they talked to a Forest Service ranger at the base of the trail who was putting up a sign (below). She said that she didn't know much about the closures, but apparently said they aren't really enforcing the closure yet.

I met a guy with a Suzuki at the Gate Keeper who was planning on going all the way through. He bombed through the trail and I never saw him again after we talked about the closures at the gate keeper. If there really was a gate 1 mile in, I would have caught him on his way back down.

Heres the sign the FS lady put up. Ill give it 2 days before someone tears it down.

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Old 06-25-2012, 09:47 AM   #433 (permalink)
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We need to get everyone a FS key....problem solved.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:22 AM   #434 (permalink)
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Thats just great.

Now there will be another lawsuit claiming the FS did not make proper signs or gates to enforce the closure.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:14 PM   #435 (permalink)
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Thats just great.

Now there will be another lawsuit claiming the FS did not make proper signs or gates to enforce the closure.
Currently the FS is just saying the areas are closed, per February 2012 court order by U.S. District Court Judge Lawrence Karlton.
The Judge has not ruled on some of the conditions like signage or gates or what ever. The FS would like to use caronites to posted area as closed.

Since the wheels of justice are a bit slow, it might be the end of summer before he makes a ruling on how the trails are to be closed.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:21 PM   #436 (permalink)
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Playing devils advocate here.....

Theoretically, if a person was to be cited for being on a section of the trail, which is deemed to be closed, yet there are no posted signs/gates, couldn't they fight the citation in court?
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:27 PM   #437 (permalink)
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Generally no. It is the duty and responsibility of the user to know FS rules, closure orders, etc. Can't hurt to make the argument but likely will fail.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:33 PM   #438 (permalink)
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That doesn't really sound logical to me.

For example, if the speed limit changes on a road or highway, it is required to be posted when it changes (65 to 55 for example).

If it isn't posted, how is a driver supposed to know that it has changed?
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:04 PM   #439 (permalink)
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Remember logic is irrelevant. By analogy, when a travel map is issued and routes are closed, we get a sign. But enterprising users remove sign and claim not to know its closed. Its buried somewhere but by issuing maps, Gvt places the world at large on notice of the authorized travel routes. Its up to the driver to now if she is on an open or closed trail.

I don't like it anymore than you. And trail management by closure is crazy. Closed unless posted open. WTF?

another similar analogy is: you post a no trespassing sign in your back yard. dude comes along and removes sign and trespasses. He says what sign? Does he get a pass? Common sense says he should know its private property, but must he research the recorders office to be sure? If one is not sure then there is a duty to investigate.

And i'm not inferring anyone here removes signs, but it happens. I'm wrong most of the time, but IIRC it is the responsibility of the user to know where he is relative to open trails.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:21 PM   #440 (permalink)
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If it isn't posted, how is a driver supposed to know that it has changed?
It is posted...just not in the Forest where the information should be.

from what I have been told, the MVUM is the map that determines what roads are open, to what typs of vehicles and when...unless there is a specific Forest Order that is issued after that map is released. in this case forest order 3-12-06
and yes it expires July 31st, I am sure they were hoping to have the judges final decision by that date but if not, another order will be issued

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5364727.pdf



Order No. 03-12-06
Eldorado National Forest
Meadow Road and Trail Closures
Pursuant to 16 USC 551 and 36 CFR 261.50(b), and to protect natural resources, the following acts are
prohibited on the Eldorado National Forest. This Order is effective from April 23, 2012 through July 31, 2012.
1. Using any wheeled motorized vehicle on the National Forest System roads listed below and
shown on Exhibits A through Z and Exhibits H1, H2, I1, I2, N1, N2, N3, Z1, Z2, AA, BB. CC,
DD, EE, FF, GG1, GG2, HH, II, and JJ.
a) Forest Road No. 8N23B (Exhibit A).
b) Forest Road No. 8N35 (Exhibit B).
c) Forest Road No. 9N01 (Exhibit C).
d) Forest Road No. 9N04 (Exhibit D).
e) Forest Road No. 9N08 (Exhibit E).
f) Forest Road No. 9N15 (Exhibit F).
g) Forest Road No. 9N54 (Exhibit G).
h) Forest Road No. 9N82 (Exhibit H1 & H2).
i) Forest Road No. 9N83 (Exhibit I1 & I2).
j) Forest Road No. 9N95 (Exhibit J).
k) Forest Road No. 10N01 (Exhibit K).
l) Forest Road No. 10N03 (Exhibit L).
m) Forest Road No. 10N06 (Exhibit M).
n) Forest Road No. 10N13 (Exhibit N1, N2, N3).
o) Forest Road No. 10N14 (Exhibit O).
p) Forest Road No. 10N21 (Exhibit P).
q) Forest Road No. 10N26 (Exhibit Q).
r) Forest Road No. 10N32 (Exhibit R).
s) Forest Road No. 10N98 (Exhibit S).
t) Forest Road No. 10NY04 (Exhibit T).
u) Forest Road No. 10NY05 (Exhibit U).
v) Forest Road No. 10NY06 (Exhibit V).
w) Forest Road No. 11N09A (Exhibit W).
x) Forest Road No. 11N22 (Exhibit X).
y) Forest Road No. 11N23F (Exhibit Y).
z) Forest Road No. 11N26F (Exhibit Z1 & Z2).
aa) Forest Road No. 11N70 (Exhibit AA).
bb) Forest Road No. 11NY32 (Exhibit BB).
cc) Forest Road No. 12NY06 (Exhibit CC).
dd) Forest Road No. 10NY15 (Exhibit DD).
ee) Forest Road No. 13N24 (Exhibit EE).
ff) Forest Road No. 14N05 (Exhibit FF).
gg) Forest Road No. 14N27 (Exhibit GG1 & GG2).
hh) Forest Road No. 14N39 (Exhibit HH).
ii) Forest Road No. 14N58 (Exhibit II).
36 CFR 261.54(a).
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:41 PM   #441 (permalink)
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I forgot to mention that the people I talked to on the trail said the forest service lady told them that ATV's and UTV's (primarily side by sides) are doing most of the damage. I'm guessing that they see a nice flat meadow and get the urge to slide around.

IIRC, it was a side by side that tore up the meadow on slick rock as well.
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:23 PM   #442 (permalink)
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A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand

As I've repeatedly been reminded here, basically this sums it up . . .

Quote:
"A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand"

Abraham Lincoln = June 1858


Lincoln delivered this famous speech, noted for the phrase "a house divided against itself cannot stand," when accepting the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate from Illinois in June of 1858. The skill with which Lincoln debated Douglas helped catapult him to the Republican Party's nomination for president in 1860, a race which he won.
Source and more: http://www.nationalcenter.org/HouseDivided.html

From the owner of four Jeeps and . . . a UTV.

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Old 06-25-2012, 10:26 PM   #443 (permalink)
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Around here we see more and more ATVs on the trails and they owners seem to be a new generation, having no clue about tread lightly, driving responsibly and staying on established trails. Making short cuts on switchbacks, ripping thru wetlands, blazing new trails and in general, rude, impatient downright nasty behavior. We've will introduce ourselves on the trail and be 100% friendly but the reception is usually negative. Not to say all ATVers are this way, heck i have two polaris quads, but the non 4x4 person sees the damage to area trails and 4x4s get lumped into the same barrel. Those negative perceptions are a formidable opponent in the pro access fight.

Almost every weekend we see new tracks across open hill sides and other evidence of irresponsible driving.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:39 PM   #444 (permalink)
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Given the very specific subject matter I commented about, the old adage “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people” seems appropriate.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:28 AM   #445 (permalink)
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I forgot to mention that the people I talked to on the trail said the forest service lady told them that ATV's and UTV's (primarily side by sides) are doing most of the damage.
This closure has little to do with actual meadow damage and much to do with single-minded exclusionary elitists gaming the system to 1.) reduce motorized access and 2.) get their organizations payed by the EAJA.

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... We've will introduce ourselves on the trail and be 100% friendly but the reception is usually negative. Not to say all ATVers are this way, heck i have two polaris quads, but the non 4x4 person sees the damage to area trails and 4x4s get lumped into the same barrel. Those negative perceptions are a formidable opponent in the pro access fight.
Mark, good work on the education and friendliness -- we've gotta keep that up and try to inform the folks with whom we're inevitably associated.

Education... it is the key. Pirate4x4.com does a good job with that, and other more ATV/UTV/moto oriented sites are starting to make some real strides in doing the same.

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Old 07-07-2012, 05:10 PM   #446 (permalink)
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FWIW, there was no signage on deer valley from blue lakes side of the trail. From the hermit valley side, there was a computer generated sign that said "trail closed a mile from this point..." there was no FS stamp, letter head or anything.
Anyone could have made that sign.

Just sayin!
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Old 07-07-2012, 05:12 PM   #447 (permalink)
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BTW...
I am also NOT SAYING we ran the trail either. I'm just sayin there was nothing in the way of "OFFICIAL" signs posted at either end of the trail.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:15 PM   #448 (permalink)
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We ALL know it's closed and where!!!

Let's not piss off the FS or Judge folks . . . this is a study as well as a TEST.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:58 AM   #449 (permalink)
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We ALL know it's closed and where!!!

Let's not piss off the FS or Judge folks . . . this is a study as well as a TEST.
Interesting how that is now a days...
The PEOPLE are more concerned about pissing off the officials whom WE give power to.
Seems they could give a rip about pissing US OFF?
Hell...they don't even need to post official signs (their responsability) to make us roll over and obey.
Such GOOD DOGS we've become!!
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:37 AM   #450 (permalink)
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Interesting how that is now a days...
The PEOPLE are more concerned about pissing off the officials whom WE give power to.
Seems they could give a rip about pissing US OFF?
Hell...they don't even need to post official signs (their responsability) to make us roll over and obey.
Such GOOD DOGS we've become!!
What screws us up most in trying to maintain motorized access to OUR public lands is the picture in OUR heads of how it is SUPPOSE to be . . . or how it once was.

Fight the Socialism/Marxism that has invaded America at the voting booth and with our elected public officials, not on our trails.
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