Deer Valley/Strawberry Closed?

[cruzila]

Brian, there are a few people that posted here, but also it has been said in here that there have been mentions at Cal4 meetings and at the Cal4 convention back in February.

I am happy to hear that Wildwun was asked about specific routes, but disappointed to hear that CBD and the FS brought maps and BRC and Cal4 did not bring maps. Now, maybe there is a good reason for that, but I HAVE fought for trails and maps are KING. John Stewart can be quoted saying that it is imperitive to get data for trails in order to save them.

all this will come out after it is done unfortunately. There are and have been games played here and i feel it has not been to our advantage.

Unfortunately.

I heard of this on Friday morning it has been out since at least May 2011

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/n...5-27-2011.html

[tacomamike]

Originally Posted by 1uglyranger

I am so beyond pissed off right now, I don't know what to say...

During one of Del's VLLS classes an El Dorado forest service guy stopped by to talk with us about route designation. He talked about some of the things that are problems for the forest service. Routes crossing water and routes through meadows were a couple of examples that he talked about.

I asked about Strawberry and Pardoe as both have short sections through meadows. His reply was, "Can you imagine the public outrage if we closed Strawberry?"

Well, I guess it's time for public outrage.

Regards,
....Mike

[1969f100]

A buddy just told me about this.

Strawberry pass is/was my favorite trail... simply a beautiful and amazing trail.

Needless to say I'm fawking pissed now.
What can someone like me (just a typical offroad nut with some 4x4's) do to help the situation if anything?

[cmarjeep]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

Wow. What a way to mix a multitude of unrelated concepts and arrive at a desired conclusion.

Ladies and Gentlemen, take a step back and reflect on the reality of this situation.

The Center for Sierra Nevada Conservancy filed lawsuit against the Forest Service requesting closure of virtually everything in the Eldoredo based on adverse impacts to frogs, water, meadows, and wetlands.

BRC and Cal4 filed as intervenors. This is well known to all that bother to keep up with information put out by BRC and Cal4Wheel. Sorry, those organizations do not make house calls to ensure everyone receives the information. (Yes, I am being condescending and sarcastic.)

After a court hearing, Judge Karlton denied the basic claims and ordered boths side to enter into settlement discussions to resolve the remaining issues.

At this point, Dept of Justice and BRC went behind closed doors to negotiate with Center for Sierra Nevada Conservancy.

I provided sufficient GIS data which dropped the frog issue from further discussion.

Don Amador, Jim and I provided enough data to remove a large number of routs from further discussion.

At the end, it came down to about 40 routes that were at issue. Thanks to Bebe, Rick and a f others, sufficient data was provided to bring it down to the 40 number and have a good rational why those 40 routes should remain open.

That is where settlement talks broke down with the enviro's wanting a full and immediate closure of those and many more rites.

The DOJ lawyers balked and everything went back to Judge Karlton's court.

To his credit, the judge threw out all but the 40 routes and ordered the FS to come ack with a plan dealing with the identified routes that crossed meadows or impacted water.

So, that is where we are at this point. The FS has to return to court with a plan.

As I stated early in this thread, WORST case means 40 routes may be subject to closure by judicial order.

Yes, I hear you abut the length of time the rutes have existed. And, about the other stated reasons why you don't believe the routes should e subject to any type of closure.

You don't like the law? Work to change he law by supporting trail friendly politicians.

Don't think you are getting enough information? Try branching out to other sources besides this forum which is not the end all source of information.

And, how about attending a Cal4 meeting? This info was presented at the Cal4 North District meeting in January and a shortened version was presented at the Cal4 convention in February.

Just remember, while the courts have jurisdiction over a case, there will be little information that will be available for public review and discussion. Don't like it? Sorry, I really don't relish being held in contemp of court.

Still have question? Or, want to bitch?

I am easy to find via PM, email or phone....

Since you seem to be in the know, what happens here? Do we sit around for the next year wondering what's going to happen to our trails, or is there something in the works to fix this?

[Kurtuleas]

Yeah John...

WHAT CAN WE DO?

[1uglyranger]

Thank you John. I think a couple of our posts overlapped, so I will say this again.

I am not making this an attack on you by any means, and I appreciate what you do...period


I'm still mad though...
And looking for help, from people like you, to know what the next step is....
Or is there one? Are we rolling over? Can anything be done?

I may not be great at staying up to date with every land use item on the table, but I feel I am pretty good at firing up the troops, and getting shit done.... that's what we do. We just need people like you, Bebe, Kurt, Randy, Scott (I could go on til my battery dies, and even mention Doug)... to keep us informed, and send us in the right direction. We are not all land use gurus, we are solders, waiting to know who to kick the crap out of first.

[1uglyranger]

Damn, all you guys type way faster than me... lol

[NorCalPR]

Originally Posted by 1uglyranger

Thank you John. I think a couple of our posts overlapped, so I will say this again.

I am not making this an attack on you by any means, and I appreciate what you do...period


I'm still mad though...
And looking for help, from people like you, to know what the next step is....
Or is there one? Are we rolling over? Can anything be done?

I may not be great at staying up to date with every land use item on the table, but I feel I am pretty good at firing up the troops, and getting shit done.... that's what we do. We just need people like you, Bebe, Kurt, Randy, Scott (I could go on til my battery dies, and even mention Doug)... to keep us informed, and send us in the right direction. We are not all land use gurus, we are solders, waiting to know who to kick the crap out of first.

In the same boat. Madder than all hell and want to do something, just don't have the brainpower to put it all together.

I definitely don't want to sit back and wait...

[connor0770]

Originally Posted by NorCalPR

In the same boat. Madder than all hell and want to do something, just don't have the brainpower to put it all together.

I definitely don't want to sit back and wait...

I think that's how most of us are. We need a leader to lead us into battle. I know a bunch of people who are pissed about the closure and want to do whatever it takes to fight back. We just need to be pointed in the right direction.

[MyBlueCruiser]

Originally Posted by 1uglyranger

Thank you John. I think a couple of our posts overlapped, so I will say this again.

I am not making this an attack on you by any means, and I appreciate what you do...period


I'm still mad though...
And looking for help, from people like you, to know what the next step is....
Or is there one? Are we rolling over? Can anything be done?

I may not be great at staying up to date with every land use item on the table, but I feel I am pretty good at firing up the troops, and getting shit done.... that's what we do. We just need people like you, Bebe, Kurt, Randy, Scott (I could go on til my battery dies, and even mention Doug)... to keep us informed, and send us in the right direction. We are not all land use gurus, we are solders, waiting to know who to kick the crap out of first.

exactly!!!.. what do we do?.. troops will be ready by dawn, do we have a plan? Also thank you to those who were on top of this and made it better than it could be.. THANK YOU.. ready to mobilize, adopt trail, or call for back up.. I wont say what else. direction, and were as good as gold.

[Kurtuleas]

Mass protest via public disobedience.

I say run Barrett, Strawberry and Deer Valley this summer.

How much is the ticket?

[Kurtuleas]

Hit them back

Lets file a lawsuit and get the Pacific Crest trail shut down.

[Kurtuleas]

Letter writing campaign directed to the Judge?

Offer to take him on a trail ride? Odds are he does not even know what wheeling REALLY is...he's thinking we are the southern mud crowd.

[k5chevyblazer]

Originally Posted by Kurtuleas

Offer to take him on a trail ride? Odds are he does not even know what wheeling REALLY is...he's thinking we are the southern mud crowd.

I went on one of the take a representative onto the trail rides. It was damn nice to show them what the trail is, what it is like on a trail, and I would LOVE to do it again.

[kf6zpl]

Originally Posted by 1uglyranger

And I don't like condesenting, or sarcastic....

We all do what we can when it comes to being involved. I guess we all think this was important enough to make public record. Not all of us have the time, resources, or brain power to find these things out on our own, that's why we give our money to Cal4, BRC, etc..... isn't it?

If these orgs are not doing anything to keep us up to speed, or "in the loop" than what are we donating our money to?

John, I don't know you. Don't know if we have ever met. I don't want to sound like I am attacking you. I am just really mad right now, and I'm sorry if I am coming off that way. Until 5 minutes ago, I didn't know who your were, so its kinda hard to search you out to ask questions about a lawsuit that I have never heard of.... make sense?

Brian, no offense taken. As noted, I am involved in a lot of different activities. For a list, check -- http://www.4x4voice.com/Notebook/NRC...cts/index.html

WRT, "orgs not keeping us up to speed", keep in mind the concept of time. It takes time to generate information releases and it takes time to post the releases to a multitude of different websites. Del and I ave kick this issue around over numerous shots of tequillia.

In the end, it is up to individuals to establish their information research lists and ensure they have access to current and accurate information. Then, it is encumbent upon the organizations to make sure they post accurate and current information.

In the end, donations (and membership) in organizations like BRC and Cal4 are necessary to ensure current and accurate information is available.

And, keep in mind that the basic lawsuit starts at $25,000 and escalates from there.

I am always available for questions. I am not a frequent visitor to the forums. But, I am available via pm, email or phone call.

I do hope to meet you at some point and share a beer...

[Kurtuleas]

Hit the local economy.

Completely boycott Eldorado National forest for one year (We cant wheel there anyway) and dont buy anything in Eldorado county. Show them that THEY NEED US.

That will never work...but the thought came to mind..

[76cjeep]

I know companies don't like getting involved in "political things", but if there is no Us(four wheelers, motorcyclists, etc) then there is no need for "them"(parts manufacturers, distributors, designers, etc.).

It would be nice to see some more companies step up to the plate to help us out. Like how Ruger is donating to the NRA.

In my opinion one huge organization representing all of us (wheelers, hunters, horse back riders, motorcyclists, and whomever else uses the forest service trails) would be much more powerful than the many little ones we have now chipping away at these issues.

One branch breaks easily, but many branches tied together are much stronger.

[Kurtuleas]

Sue the Forest service to OPEN routes?

Hey, the other side always sues them!

[cruzila]

Originally Posted by Kurtuleas

Letter writing campaign directed to the Judge?

Offer to take him on a trail ride? Odds are he does not even know what wheeling REALLY is...he's thinking we are the southern mud crowd.

I know a little about this judge. He does not like the FS all that much so has an easy time judging against them. Mostly because they have been so bad at doing their job that it has been easy for lawsuits to prevail. I would agree with that in that land use decisions should not be made in a court of law but on the ground by science done by thoughtful responsible people that do the job they are supposed to do.

The bad part is it seems to me there is a disconnect between punitive actions against the agency and the result of those decisions to the public that uses the land entrusted to the Dept of Agriculture USFS.

Slamming a judge with communications would be the worst possible thing to do right now. (not saying anyone is mounting a campaign) The best thing to do is to figure out a way to change the law, change the judge, change the way we look at what we do and do better.

[1969f100]

Originally Posted by k5chevyblazer

I went on one of the take a representative onto the trail rides. It was damn nice to show them what the trail is, what it is like on a trail, and I would LOVE to do it again.

Well shit, I'd be more than happy to take one of "them" through a trail to change their outlook on who we are and what we do.
Talking them into this could be a challenge, though.

[Kurtuleas]

Who is the judge Scott?


I am just throwing out ideas BTW...

[Kurtuleas]

print out 500 t-shirts that say "CBD BITCH" and give then to Forest Service employees for free?





just kidding..

[kf6zpl]

Originally Posted by Kurtuleas

Yeah John...

WHAT CAN WE DO?

And, es there at a lt of overlapping posts and people are typing faster than me....

At this time, we are in a wait and see situation.

A letter writing campaign to a judge does nothing. They base their decisions on points of law, not emotion.

However, there are possibilities for educating judges...

That is a topic for another thread.

Scott noted, and I have said many times, documentation of our trails is critical.

We need complete gps tracks along with photos documenting potential issues on trails.

At this point in time, you have a list of potential closures. How many people have accurate gpsbtracks of those routes? Does anyone have photo documentation of those trails?

FS will be doing some type of analysis of those routes. The more information that can be collected, the better the chance for positive result.

[1969f100]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

Does anyone have photo documentation of those trails?

FS will be doing some type of analysis of those routes. The more information that can be collected, the better the chance for positive result.

I have several pictures of the Strawberry pass trail, although they all include a 4x4 crawling through them.
If these can help in any way I will post them. Any specific parts of the trail?

[NorCalPR]

No gps here, but I have some pictures. What pictures exactly do we need?


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