Deer Valley/Strawberry Closed?

[NorCalPR]

^beat me to the punch


Sent from my iThingy using Tapatalk

[kf6zpl]

Originally Posted by 76cjeep

I know companies don't like getting involved in "political things", but if there is no Us(four wheelers, motorcyclists, etc) then there is no need for "them"(parts manufacturers, distributors, designers, etc.).

It would be nice to see some more companies step up to the plate to help us out. Like how Ruger is donating to the NRA.

In my opinion one huge organization representing all of us (wheelers, hunters, horse back riders, motorcyclists, and whomever else uses the forest service trails) would be much more powerful than the many little ones we have now chipping away at these issues.

One branch breaks easily, but many branches tied together are much stronger.

Actually, we are attempting this very concept with a little effort called "Save the Hammers".

Okay, it involves the proposed Marine Corps take over of Johnson Valley md it is now moving into a Washington, DC lobbying effort. The costs are starting at $100,000 and moving up from there.

Now, within Eldorado, the challenge is to address the current legal issues. As it stands, BRC, Cal4, and AMA District 36 are carrying the legal bills. They need donations to pay the legal bills.

There is a possibility of pulling in vendor support. HOWEVER, vendors are becoming more reluctant to part with money without a solid business plan to show how the monies will be applied to an effort.

Anything is possible. It takes effort to turn possibilities into reality. I am willing to work with anyone that wants to commit the time and effort.

[kf6zpl]

Originally Posted by 1969f100

I have several pictures of the Strawberry pass trail, although they all include a 4x4 crawling through them.
If these can help in any way I will post them. Any specific parts of the trail?

There are a couple of people with pictures. Great. Now, we really need a plan to move forward.

I do not want to post a vast collection of pictures without a review of content.

There is an adage: one picture is worth a thousand words. I would hate to spend a thousand words discrediting a picture.

Use of 4x4 on a trail is fine. At issue is a 4x4 in water on a trail. However, one that shows entry and departure on a ater crossing has potential merit.

Keep in mind, the issues to address are resource damage and water quality.

And, I am not sure as to the final criteria FS will come out with when they post their plan back to the court.

BTW, the judge in question is Karlton. He has been dealing with the Eldorado litigation for close to 20 years and is very familiar with the issues. In past rulings he has been fairly supportive of recreation issues. He does not tolerate frivolous actions in his court. His most recent ruling was unexpected but not as bad as it could have been.

[1969f100]

PM'd with photobucket link to strawberry-pass pictures.

[cruzila]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

There are a couple of people with pictures. Great. Now, we really need a plan to move forward.

I do not want to post a vast collection of pictures without a review of content.

There is an adage: one picture is worth a thousand words. I would hate to spend a thousand words discrediting a picture.

Use of 4x4 on a trail is fine. At issue is a 4x4 in water on a trail. However, one that shows entry and departure on a ater crossing has potential merit.

Keep in mind, the issues to address are resource damage and water quality.

And, I am not sure as to the final criteria FS will come out with when they post their plan back to the court.

BTW, the judge in question is Karlton. He has been dealing with the Eldorado litigation for close to 20 years and is very familiar with the issues. In past rulings he has been fairly supportive of recreation issues. He does not tolerate frivolous actions in his court. His most recent ruling was unexpected but not as bad as it could have been.

John, i am assuming you are working closely with the adopt a trail club on Barrett? i think Strawberry has one too. Rick can help to cover the rest, but right now it is all covered in snow. Hard to get pictures currently if there is a closure n place and closures will continue after season lifts.

[UGET IT]

The FS wont be able to do any assesments till late spring at best.

[1uglyranger]

I'm still confused as to why so few people knew about this until yesterday.....

Its not like a tiny little issue that didn't justify its own thread, this is huge, yet so few of the people knew about it. Does anyone know why/why not?

[twn44s]

Thanks for info John and other's , it is hard to stay up with the current info, so right now I have to rely on other groups, I'm doing my best to keep up on issues about the Rubicon

I think what folks want to hear is if I donate my money blindly to CAL 4, BRC, N2DIRT, CORVA, will they stand up to fight where we the 1 income trying to raise my family saving money up for gas so i can attend Rubicon work days can see them fighting it.

I know that there is some items that cannot be discussed out in the open

I'm not trying bash John and Del or any one that fights for us I applaud them for there efforts

I'm trying to relay I think what alot of us feel

Thanks

Rusty Folena

[Crash440]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

Wow. What a way to mix a multitude of unrelated concepts and arrive at a desired conclusion.

Ladies and Gentlemen, take a step back and reflect on the reality of this situation.

The Center for Sierra Nevada Conservancy filed lawsuit against the Forest Service requesting closure of virtually everything in the Eldoredo based on adverse impacts to frogs, water, meadows, and wetlands.

BRC and Cal4 filed as intervenors. This is well known to all that bother to keep up with information put out by BRC and Cal4Wheel. Sorry, those organizations do not make house calls to ensure everyone receives the information. (Yes, I am being condescending and sarcastic.)

After a court hearing, Judge Karlton denied the basic claims and ordered boths side to enter into settlement discussions to resolve the remaining issues.

At this point, Dept of Justice and BRC went behind closed doors to negotiate with Center for Sierra Nevada Conservancy.

I provided sufficient GIS data which dropped the frog issue from further discussion.

Don Amador, Jim and I provided enough data to remove a large number of routs from further discussion.

At the end, it came down to about 40 routes that were at issue. Thanks to Bebe, Rick and a f others, sufficient data was provided to bring it down to the 40 number and have a good rational why those 40 routes should remain open.

That is where settlement talks broke down with the enviro's wanting a full and immediate closure of those and many more rites.

The DOJ lawyers balked and everything went back to Judge Karlton's court.

To his credit, the judge threw out all but the 40 routes and ordered the FS to come ack with a plan dealing with the identified routes that crossed meadows or impacted water.

So, that is where we are at this point. The FS has to return to court with a plan.

As I stated early in this thread, WORST case means 40 routes may be subject to closure by judicial order.

Yes, I hear you abut the length of time the rutes have existed. And, about the other stated reasons why you don't believe the routes should e subject to any type of closure.

You don't like the law? Work to change he law by supporting trail friendly politicians.

Don't think you are getting enough information? Try branching out to other sources besides this forum which is not the end all source of information.

And, how about attending a Cal4 meeting? This info was presented at the Cal4 North District meeting in January and a shortened version was presented at the Cal4 convention in February.

Just remember, while the courts have jurisdiction over a case, there will be little information that will be available for public review and discussion. Don't like it? Sorry, I really don't relish being held in contemp of court.

Still have question? Or, want to bitch?

I am easy to find via PM, email or phone....

Thank you for all this information. My question is why is there little for public review since it affects public lands and so many people? Maybe I'm just stupid to the courts system but 'contempt of court' .........is there a gag order?

Why are we the last to know after the fact? I mean if Kurt didn't know

Thank you for your hard work on keeping our trails open and for sharing this information here for us.

[UGET IT]

I think every ORG...BRC, Cal4wd. CORVA and significant other should post monthly to sites like Pirate with Updates of current landuse situations and the heavy fights going on. It would be a simple blanket letter with a general update. Using a "Landuse Alert Level" might also help to let folks know the hot items.

I have always said this should happen. It accomplishes many things and keeps poeple in the loop that cannot attend meetings and read reports till their eyes turn red. It can also pave a good path to new members and revenue, validating where moneies are going.

Kevin

[Kurtuleas]

Originally Posted by Crash440

Why are we the last to know after the fact? I mean if Kurt didn't know

.

Don't give me that much credit crash. I am not that plugged into our orgs. If I want info, I gotta ask or go find it....no one ever fills me in. I am just a little guy.

The only org that keeps me updated on a regular basis is ORBA....and that's only since Jeff started working there.

Be more worried that Rick (wldwun) didn't know. He is the one plugged into ELDO and the forest service. .

[Kurtuleas]

I got an idea of what we can do...

I'll post it up later when I have time.

[Crash440]

Originally Posted by Kurtuleas

Don't give me that much credit crash. I am not that plugged into our orgs. If I want info, I gotta ask or go find it....no one ever fills me in. I am just a little guy.

The only org that keeps me updated on a regular basis is ORBA....and that's only since Jeff started working there.

Be more worried that Rick (wldwun) didn't know. He is the one plugged into ELDO and the forest service. .

Thanks for the who's who

and you my friend deserve ALOT of credit for all your work too

[WheelingPiazza]

Kevin,

While I agree with you on a blanket update, That still does not guarantee that it will be read. We as individuals need to keep our selves informed regardless of where the content is held.

I am a member of Cal 4 wheel and various other Organizations, Like you I do not have time to go searching for information, That is why I read the publications from each organization cover to cover. IF I have questions I know I can contact Jim B, John S, or anyone that is fighting for us and they will respond.

You can also sign up for the Alert Access email chain on the Cal site plus review the archives - www.cal4wheel.com. They have a forum as well(granted its content is a bit old and needs to be continually updated going foward) that you can post questions and review any latest news. BlueRibbon has the same type of Alert Access Email chain as well, -Https://www.sharetrails.org/secure/lists/?p=subscribe&id=2

So the information is out there, it just a matter of us as individuals to sign up. Saying that I wasn't informed is a bit of a cliche in my book, Its up to us to be involved and be informed and not rely on one individual or organization to spread the news. Now if you belong to the email lists, read the forums and Mags and were blind sided by this, then there is a fundamental break down that I am sure could be resolved with a simple email or phone call to anyone of the people that represent us.

BTW the next Cal 4 wheel Northern District Meeting is April 21st at the Cal 4 wheel office. I suggest you show up and shake hands with John and Jim, Ask them pointed questions, They will answer.

Steve Piazza
Dysfunctional RockCrawler

[WLDWUN]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

We need complete gps tracks along with photos documenting potential issues on trails.

I have hundreds of miles of GPS tracks for many roads on Eldorado. probably only 1 or 2 on the list (Silverfork area). I am sure we can get them all if that would really help.
I understand how pictures may help, but what good is a GPS track?

Originally Posted by cruzila

John, i am assuming you are working closely with the adopt a trail club on Barrett? i think Strawberry has one too. Rick can help to cover the rest, but right now it is all covered in snow. Hard to get pictures currently if there is a closure n place and closures will continue after season lifts.

here are the clubs I know of that are affected.
Gold Hills Posse***********Stawberry
South County Trail Riders****Deer Valley
Motherlode Rockcrawlers****Pardoe and others
Hi-landers***************Barrett Lake
Sierra Treasure Hunters*****Long Canyon

[1uglyranger]

Originally Posted by WheelingPiazza

Kevin,

While I agree with you on a blanket update, That still does not guarantee that it will be read. We as individuals need to keep our selves informed regardless of where the content is held.

I am a member of Cal 4 wheel and various other Organizations, Like you I do not have time to go searching for information, That is why I read the publications from each organization cover to cover. IF I have questions I know I can contact Jim B, John S, or anyone that is fighting for us and they will respond.

You can also sign up for the Alert Access email chain on the Cal site plus review the archives - www.cal4wheel.com. They have a forum as well(granted its content is a bit old and needs to be continually updated going foward) that you can post questions and review any latest news. BlueRibbon has the same type of Alert Access Email chain as well, -Https://www.sharetrails.org/secure/lists/?p=subscribe&id=2

So the information is out there, it just a matter of us as individuals to sign up. Saying that I wasn't informed is a bit of a cliche in my book, Its up to us to be involved and be informed and not rely on one individual or organization to spread the news. Now if you belong to the email lists, read the forums and Mags and were blind sided by this, then there is a fundamental break down that I am sure could be resolved with a simple email or phone call to anyone of the people that represent us.

BTW the next Cal 4 wheel Northern District Meeting is April 21st at the Cal 4 wheel office. I suggest you show up and shake hands with John and Jim, Ask them pointed questions, They will answer.

Steve Piazza
Dysfunctional RockCrawler

There is no InGear to read cover to cover anymore, just another email. I get emails from BRC all the time, nothing on this subject. I did not know Cal4 had an email alert system, so I will check it out.

My point is, why wouldn't they want us to know?? If you found out this info wouldn't you be shouting from the roof tops? Rallying the troops? Getting people fired up to try to make a difference? They did none of this, just tried to handle it themselves, and failed

[Bebe]

Legislators are temporary.Legislation, as unpopular as it would be to protect OHV use on Public Lands would be impossible to pass. Or it would take YEARS.

The quickest way to change the law is to set a precedent in a Court of Law.


Sue the bastids.

[LYIN' KING]

McClintock E-News
March 2012

District Events

On March 3rd Congressman McClintock spoke to citizens and law enforcement about the importance of the Second Amendment, and what steps the public can take to ensure Second Amendment rights.

That evening the Congressman spoke to supporters of the Rubicon Trail in Placerville. The Rubicon Trail is one of the oldest and well-known off-road trails in the country. The Congressman spoke about the importance of expanding public access to public lands. His remarks came at the Rubicon Trail Foundation’s Black Tie and Boots banquet.

On March 12th Congressman McClintock spoke at a forum in Sacramento on regional forestry issues. The Congressman discussed the importance of utilizing natural resources for the benefit of the public.

[WheelingPiazza]

Actually, you are wrong Brian, the In Gear mag exists, I am currently looking at the Dec - Jan, Feb - Mar, and April - May issues sitting on my desk. Email is only one way to receive the information from Cal.

I cant speak for Cal or any other person in the know. But I would bet that it wasn't that they didnt want us to know. I suggest PM/Emailing John Stewart, Jim Bramham, Frank Funk, Del Albright(BRC amb.), Donald Amador (BRC) and asking that very question.

I know at least 4 of them are on facebook but if you need their contact info I can supply Jim, Frank, and Johns simply from the in Gear mag.

Steve

Originally Posted by 1uglyranger

There is no InGear to read cover to cover anymore, just another email. I get emails from BRC all the time, nothing on this subject. I did not know Cal4 had an email alert system, so I will check it out.

My point is, why wouldn't they want us to know?? If you found out this info wouldn't you be shouting from the roof tops? Rallying the troops? Getting people fired up to try to make a difference? They did none of this, just tried to handle it themselves, and failed

[LYIN' KING]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

There is an adage: one picture is worth a thousand words. I would hate to spend a thousand words discrediting a picture.

Many thanks for ALL you do John!!

Spending your personal time to further provide assistance and detailed clarification of issues involved in this matter is going way beyond the call of duty!!!

Obviously, this fact and the clarification provided is still lost on some.

I apologize for requesting your input in this thread, had no idea it would become such a circus filled with a nearly complete lack of gratitude for the support we receive from you, CAL4, the BRC, AMA and many others.

Folks like you who provide their professional expertise and personal time tirelessly in defense of our diminishing access deserve more credit and respect than what has been extended here.

[Simple Man]

I just heard that a few days ago the HiLos sent out a notice cancelling their Poker Run this year becuase Deer Valley was going to be closed.

How did THEY know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtuleas
well... Doug knew about it before we did..

Too bad we chased him away from PBB becuase we didnt have his back with that issue on his side of the Con.

And Doug didn't share with anyone who is still on pbb?
Just cause Doug isn't here doesn't mean he doesn't talk to someone who is....

I'm not loosing sleep over Doug not being on pbb.

Wow, this kind of post just reenforces the reason I left Pirate. I haven't posted since Jul/Aug of 2011. I only started 'lurking' maybe a month ago. But when my name came up, I felt I needed to step out of the shadows.

For the record, I heard about the possible closure of the Deer Valley Trail on....the Pirate4x4 forum! Because I no longer believe anything I read on Pirate without verification, I set out to verify the possible closure of the Deer Valley Trail.

I sent an email to the members of the Lake Tahoe Hi-Lo's on Sunday, just before 3pm asking if anyone had information about this possible closure and suggested they think about a new route. Cancellation was never mentioned.

Here is what I got in return. The following was sent on March 26th to the Hi-Lo's from the FS (but not the Eldorado). So maybe one forest doesn't know what the other is doing.

Attached is a final bill for collection for 2011.

Are you working on dates for 2012? Take a look at your operating plan, has anything changed?

Will need to obtain the permit amendment for the Eldorado portion of the event.

Does anyone have a hard copy letter from the Eldorado that these trails will be closed?

This group (all OHV) still doesn't have a clue. There is a HUGE lack of communication and respect. Can anyone think how you could have figured out how I learned of the possible Deer Valley Trail "before we did"? Anyone?

Ever heard of a phone? How about a direct email? All you needed to do was ask. But you'd rather just make up stuff. You're still fighting about who knew what and when.

STOP IT! Who gives a shit what happened up to now? Get past it and work towards a solution. This is why I've pretty much given up on 'organizations' and now focus on what I can do with my clubs, boots on the ground.

Yes, I will be at the FOTR meeting but only to give an update on the Tahoe side.




Questions? - dougbarr@charter.com

[Brothergrim]

Originally Posted by 1uglyranger

There is no InGear to read cover to cover anymore, just another email. I get emails from BRC all the time, nothing on this subject. I did not know Cal4 had an email alert system, so I will check it out.

My point is, why wouldn't they want us to know?? If you found out this info wouldn't you be shouting from the roof tops? Rallying the troops? Getting people fired up to try to make a difference? They did none of this, just tried to handle it themselves, and failed

I have a copy of the InGear setting in front on me right now. They want you know and none of the information was hidden at any time, it was always there. People have been screaming from the roof tops, they just can't force people to listen.

[LYIN' KING]

Dear Bob,

What if everyone who enjoys public lands worked together to keep them open to all?

It would send message that closures are no longer acceptable.

Bob that can happen and we need people like you to be part of it.

On April 21 Save The Trails will be hosting a Rally to Preserve Access to Public Lands at Valley View Cycles, 3917 Buck Owens Blvd in Bakersfield CA starting at 11am.

Most every form of recreation is going to be there uniting to Stop the Closures.

The more folks who attend the bigger statement we will make. The media and decision makers will be watching.

We will be talking about rare opportunities we have right now to Preserve Access to Our Public Lands and how everyone can make a difference, but only if more people speak up.

Bob please join us at the Rally and let the world know you want to Preserve Access to your Public Lands.

We need you to bring your friends and family with you and dress like you would for the trails.

Please tell people about this important event and post it on the forums and blogs.

We all need access to our public lands whether one enjoys off road recreation or horseback, mountain biking, hiking, fishing, camping or anything on public lands.

The time has come to speak up and to stop being being the Silent Majority.

The time has come to say No More Closures.

I hope to see you at the Rally. You can find out more at http://www.savethetrails.us/Rally2012.html

Together we can keep our public lands open!!

~ Chris Horgan and your friends at Save The Trails

[Bebe]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

The judge's decision ruled for temporary closures of routes in meadows or where streams are involved.

Has the 'decision' been published?

How can a Judge close routes? Under what authority? Can that authority be challenged in a court of Law?

Why did he close the routes? What was his reasoning?

[1uglyranger]

The last time I renewed my Cal4 membership I did it over the phone, and asked why I stopped recieving InGear..... I was told that InGear was no longer published, and only the emails were sent out. Was I lied to?