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Old 03-27-2012, 10:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Deer Valley/Strawberry Closed?

I know about the seasonal closures in the winter but I saw this on another board. I haven't heard about this anywhere else including here, so I'm skeptical. Anyone have anymore info?

http://www.nc4w.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2843
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This is something that has been going on for the last 2 decades, so there is no simple way to put this, but I will try. A group of anti-access organization filed suit against the Federal Government that the US Forest Service failed to develop a Travel Management Plan. ElDorado National Forest (ENF) was one of the first to start the process. Part of the process was an Environmental Impact Study (EIS), this was a long and drawn out process. When the Final Environmental Impact Study (FEIS) and the ‘Record of Decision’ for the Travel Management Plan came out, in which the OHV community lost multiple miles of trails and roads, three groups, Sierra Nevada Conservation Center, Center for Biological Diversity and Forest Issues Group, filed suit that the ENF failed to follow the Travel Management Regulations, NEPA, NFMA, and ESA. When the judgment came out, both sides claimed victory. One of the things came out was that the USFS needed to do more studies on ‘wetlands and meadows’. The OHV leaders did appeal the decision and at this time we are waiting for the ruling on that appeal. One of the things that might come out from this judgment is a temporary closure of some Forest Service roads while the USFS does their studies on the ‘wetlands and meadows’ issues. There is no time line for the studies to finish.
Here is a list of roads that are threatened from the CA4WDC lawyer. Keep in mind that the entire route may or may not be closed:
8N35, 9N54, 10N32, 11N70,
14N58, 10NY04, 17E12, 9N15,
10N03, 10NY06, 11N09A, 14N27,
9N95, 10N98, 11N23F, 17E16,
10N26, 9N01, 9N08, 10N21,
11N26F, 11NY32, 8N23B, 12NY15,
17E17, 10N01, 17E19, 10N06,
10NY05, 11N22, 12NY06, 13N24
9N83 (DEER VALLEY TRAIL),
10N13 (STRAWBERRY TRAIL),
10N14, 14N05, 14N39, 17E24,
9N04, 9N82, 17E21, and 17E28.
I will let you know what happens as some as I get the information.
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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So Matt posted there and not here??? Welp, thanks for bringing this to our attention. I'll check my e-mail notes in the morning.

I don't know if the routes are at risk or not, maybe some one else in the know will post up soon and get us the straight poop.

I imagine there will be another NEPA process to comment on?
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
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If there may be temporary closures, then there may be temporary protests...occupy Strawberry?

Deer Valley is Cherry stemmed, so it's protected by the Wilderness act. The FS, Judge, EPA or anyone else does not have the Authorization or power to close it, only Congress.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:10 AM   #4 (permalink)
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So Matt posted there and not here??? Welp, thanks for bringing this to our attention. I'll check my e-mail notes in the morning.

I don't know if the routes are at risk or not, maybe some one else in the know will post up soon and get us the straight poop.

I imagine there will be another NEPA process to comment on?
Bebe,
look at your email dated July 20th 2011 to John Stewart
I think you will notice many of the route numbers above are listed on that email...
bet he knows more about this
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLDWUN View Post
Bebe,
look at your email dated July 20th 2011 to John Stewart
I think you will notice many of the route numbers above are listed on that email...
bet he knows more about this
I think we know what the Judge remanded these routes to the FS for review, but I'm not sure what the status is, and if it's open for public comment. (I think I also remember John asking to keep it confidential for legal reasons, but that's not happening now)

I'm pretty sure it's not new news, just part of the process of review as required by Judge Carlton.

What I do know is none of these routes are closed YET, and I don't see it happening unless it's done by temporary order from the Forest Service. But, like I said, a temporary closure will result in temporary protests, general noise making, and lots of letters and phone calls.



Bebe

Oh yeah....here it is, posted in May of last year....by Moi.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...light=eldorado


And here is the announcement of Karens second suit, with Frog details
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...light=eldorado
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:28 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Thanks for clearing this up Bebe. I hope it doesn't come to temp. closures but if it does we're ready to make some noise.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:32 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Shot John an email asking for some insight.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
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look at your email dated July 20th 2011 to John Stewart... bet he knows more about this
John is Land Use Consultant for the South half of the state -- Jim Bramham is Land Use Consultant for the North half of the state. Jim is probably a better resource to start from -- maybe put John on carbon-copy.

I agree with Jacquelyne -- none of these routes are closed yet; Karlton has yet to drop his hammer on the status of these routes and that pesky frog.

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Old 03-28-2012, 12:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The routes listed are pat of the legal wrangling that has been going on in ElDorado for some time. As it stands now, the settlement discussions have concluded (no resolution) with another trip back to the judge for his decision.

The judge's decision ruled for temporary closures of routes in meadows or where streams are involved.

The Dept of Justice lawyers and Forest Service are trying to determine what that means.

WORST CASE: there may be up to 40 routes in the Eldorado that cross meadows or streams that will have a temporary closure until there status can be resolved.

Again, that is WORST CASE. The DOJ and FS have not released their plan of action which is expected at any time.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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WORST CASE: there may be up to 40 routes in the Eldorado that cross meadows or streams that will have a temporary closure until there status can be resolved.

Again, that is WORST CASE. The DOJ and FS have not released their plan of action which is expected at any time.
Thank you John!!!
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LYIN' KING View Post
There has been so much illegal abuse of the creek crossing areas and creek banks in the first and second meadows of the Deer Valley trail over the past ten+ years that I almost hate camping there now!

For some reason the lovely view of all the orange FS signs adorning both sides of the crossings for 100 yards in either direction reminding folks of that which should be common sense just ruins the experience.

Many thanks to those who do not TreadLightly!

This isn’t directed toward any members of this forum . . . unless of course you're guilty . . . in which case . . .
This I'm going to save - because I want to talk about it later....after my next meeting.
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Old 03-28-2012, 04:44 PM   #12 (permalink)
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The Rubicon and feeder creeks use to host huge arse Browns and other species in waters often no more than two feet wide and the same depth back in the late 60s and early to mid 70s but those days are gone!!!
This is a result of poor management & over-fishing (which directly relates to poor management).

I'm an avid fisherman myself. However, I catch & release 99.99% of the fish I catch. The only fish I EVER keep are is occasional medium keeper that I know someone will eat. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people fishing during spawning season, keeping small ones, or being over the limit.
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:32 PM   #13 (permalink)
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If you listen to fish sniffer on Saturday mornings, you'll hear Bob Simms talk about these and other issues. He pointedly discusses the unethical practices of both the Vietnamese and Russian Communities. Pointedly!

He is very adamant about doing something about it and educating, at every opportunity, his listeners, Fish and Game and the Forest Service.

He doesn't complain, he calls all anglers to action....every Saturday morning.

We should do the same.

We should call out individuals on their behavior if we come across it, it is an opportunity to educate, correct and remedy. Note I said "individuals". Ambiguity hurts us, it does not help us.

I don't know where in my childhood this particular disdain comes from, but I despise complaining.

We as a community should take pause for a moment and not whine about other wheelers behavior. Especially on the Internet and ESPECIALLY not in the Pirate Land Use Section.

We have to DO something about it. We all take the opportunities presented to us to educate - our children, our parents, our neighbors and anyone else we come into contact with when we are out on the trail. This is being proactive,

This is protecting our resources.

When we see damage on a trail we need to stop, get out of our machines and fix it. If it is too extensive to remedy completely, we need to organize a small group to go out the following weekend and repair or correct the issue immediately.

This is taking responsibility for our resources.

Coming to Pirate and complaining about degradation over 5-50 years does nothing but call attention to issues that the eco-whacko's and kool-aid drinking FS employees who already hate us, and points them a place to go to use as an example - against us.

This transfers power from us - to them.

Complaining about it only shows how powerless we are, and we are not a powerless people.

Erosion Happens. Period. Sometimes slowly with regular use, sometimes large storm events trigger land slides and massive stream bed erosion.

All we should be concerned about it how to manage our use.

I'm only pointing this out because I think we forget to think through our points we are trying to make before we tangent on the Internet, and how it appears to the other side.

We teach our children not to cry over spilled milk, then we promptly pick up a dishrag and wipe it up.


It's the same principle. Please apply it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
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In the first Meadow along a creek that shall go nameless rests the ashes and head stone of a man who loved the area so much that his last request was to be interred there, certainly he is rolling in his grave over what has since transpired!!!

I have personally removed HUMAN fecal matter from the top of his memorial, intentionally dropped there, and cleaned it up to mil spec!!! How F'd up this THAT!!!

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Old 03-29-2012, 12:06 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Jacquelyne, your post about personally reaching out to individual problems, while publicly educating the users and managers is absolutely on-target. Very well-said!

Back in the 1990s, I was frustrated with poor use I saw on Rubicon, and I've been working to help since then. Complaining and whining doesn't help -- educating, volunteering, fund-raising, and activisim *do* help. Give as you can, people -- of your time, dollars, and heart.

We are powerless to change the minds of the most vehement anti-recreationists... but we can easily reach out to those within our hobby, and the outdoorspeople who are adjacent to our hobby (hunters, fishers, hikers, bikers, horsemen etc.) who all use unpaved roads to get to their recreation... we're all OHV folks together when we're off paved roads.

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Old 03-29-2012, 02:11 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I should have re-phrased my point a bit more clearly.

By over-fishing, what I meant is that what lakes & streams in CA can sustain/lose (#s of fish) versus what actually happens (more fish are taken than can actively reproduce), is a major reason why those streams you used to fish no longer produce the fish that you used to see.

I moved to CA in the 1970s from the East Coast.
I learned to fish in up state NY & NJ, as well as Canada.
Back there, it wasn't a matter of "if" you would catch fish when you went fishing, it was more like "how many" & "how big" of fish you would catch.

Case in point...
Fishing is great at Loon (& I hear Spyder/Buck) in early May/June & into July.
But come August, forget about it.
Why is that?
Because most of the fish in the lake have been caught...
The few remaining reproduce enough to make it good the following Spring.
Repeat.

Size of lake, H20 Temp, & food sources are also a factor (no food = no fish).
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:28 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Hi all, I am the 2012 Trailmaster for the Gold Hills Posse 4X4 club out of Granite Bay; we adopted the Strawberry Pass trail almost 10 years ago and have worked closely with the Department of Forestry on maintenance projects and water runoff abatement.

Strawberry Pass is a great trail for everyone and has been on the Radar for a number of years. The Gold Hills Posse as well as other mindful clubs and individuals have had a direct impact on keeping it open for all to enjoy.

We have had an increasingly positive relationship over the last few of years with the Forestry Service; I placed some calls today requesting updates, but got voicemails. I will post what kind of responses I get. It looks to me like we're waiting on a decision from the DOJ and FS before we know what the next step is.

George

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Old 03-29-2012, 03:36 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Hi all, I am the 2012 Trailmaster for the Gold Hills Posse 4X4 club out of Granite Bay; .
Welcome!

may I ask who you work with at the Forest Service?

I know the trail is in the Placerville Ranger District. If you have names, I have ALL of their direct phone numbers and email addresses if that would help you.

Rick
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:38 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Hi Rick, Thanks!

Cathy Bounds, Dana, & Kyle out of the Placerville Office

George

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Old 03-29-2012, 03:49 PM   #20 (permalink)
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So, kids....when we go from talking about trail closure to trout fishing...it's called a Thread Jack.....
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:52 PM   #21 (permalink)
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So, kids....when we go from talking about trail closure to trout fishing...it's called a Thread Jack.....
Yeah, my apologies to ALL . . .
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Old 03-29-2012, 04:11 PM   #22 (permalink)
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You know what they say........

"The worst day fishing beats the best day working....."

Or in this case, "talking about fishing".
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:57 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I heard a rumor that the DOJ is making their decision this Monday and it looks like a temp. closure for 1 year?

Can anyone verify?
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:07 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:23 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I heard a rumor
Someone else’s turn to call in their expert of choice to confirm or deny said rumor.
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