Why do we give money to "Land Use" organizations?

[Brothergrim]

It seem that a lot of people are overlooking a group that has been on the front line for over 50 years. For the number of off roaders that say they want to fight, it is sad to only see a measly 4000 members of Cal4Wheel. You don't have to join, you can donate to the Legal Fund so that you know that of your hard earn money goes to the fight in the courts.
Don't get me wrong, BRC is great and I am a member, but let's not forget one of the first organation that started to fight for off roaders rights and public lands use.

[kf6zpl]

Originally Posted by Brothergrim

It seem that a lot of people are overlooking a group that has been on the front line for over 50 years. For the number of off roaders that say they want to fight, it is sad to only see a measly 4000 members of Cal4Wheel. You don't have to join, you can donate to the Legal Fund so that you know that of your hard earn money goes to the fight in the courts.
Don't get me wrong, BRC is great and I am a member, but let's not forget one of the first organation that started to fight for off roaders rights and public lands use.

CA4WDC is and has been a partner in BRC lawsuits within the state of California for more than 15 years.

Yes, membership is key to supporting that level of commitment to public land access.

[Mrs DuMass]

Originally Posted by Ghetto Fab.

I don't know anyone else besides me that knows of the CBD.

Cyndi Tuell, CBD - Why we're so frustrated.wmv - YouTube

SaveRForestsfromtheUSFS

http://www.google.com/search?client=...hannel=suggest

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/a...aff/index.html
Cyndi Tuell, Conservation Advocate, holds a bachelor of science in ecology and evolutionary biology from the University of Arizona and a law degree from the University of Arizona James E. Rogers College of Law. Before joining the Center, she worked for the Sonoran Institute. Cyndi was born and raised in Tucson, Arizona.

Contact: Tucson, AZ, 520.396.1130, ctuell@biologicaldiversity.org

[Sillyneck]

Originally Posted by 71BRONCO71

I vote we put Sillyneck in a suit and let him speak

Forget that. Chatter time is over. Spend your spare time in the gym. Time to fight back for real. Paperwork is for pussies and isn't gaining any ground.

I think the days of you guys telling me I need to watch my mouth and walk on eggshells around these sons of bitches are far gone.

Occupy Schambach

[Sillyneck]

It's time to get loud, be heard and OPPOSE.

Kind of like what the republican party needs to do with obama but they're not because they're pussies. I have no problem getting locked up a little for a good cause but I want some f-cking back up. I want to roll 100 deep to Karen's home and lock ourselves down there for a week. Make her life suck... make her neighbors hate her more. Let's do what her liberal people do to everyone else when they don't get their way.

[Bebe]

Occupy Rock Creek!!!

I can still get internet there right?

[RockMolester]

Originally Posted by Sillyneck

It's time to get loud, be heard and OPPOSE.

Kind of like what the republican party needs to do with obama but they're not because they're pussies. I have no problem getting locked up a little for a good cause but I want some f-cking back up. I want to roll 100 deep to Karen's home and lock ourselves down there for a week. Make her life suck... make her neighbors hate her more. Let's do what her liberal people do to everyone else when they don't get their way.

This is one of the ideas I proposed to Kurt as soon as we heard about this bullshit ruling, but perhaps a better idea would be to Occupy Deer Valley (or wherever) and get every club member, senior, veteran, and child we can, send 300 vehicles into Deer Valley, set up camp, and build some freakin' bridges over the creek crossings and do whatever trail maintenance is needed. Call in the press, document everything, wave American flags non-stop, and be kind and courteous and respectful to everyone and everything while making it perfectly clear that we will NOT allow the government to lock us out of any more of our PUBLIC lands.

We are NOT causing environmental problems and they know it! Show them that we can fix in 1 week what the government and the "environmentalists" can't do in a decade - and that we can do it without a bunch of damn environmental impact studies and millions of taxpayer dollars! If the government comes in to arrest us for taking the initiative to perform a self- funded volunteer environmental restoration project on the public lands that we cherish, then the media ought to side with US for once instead of the anti-access propagandists.

[mrssillyneck]

Originally Posted by 71BRONCO71

I dont know of ANYONE that can argue with silly Phil and win... well, except Mrs Sillyneck

Maybe we both need to put on a suit! ;-)

[mrssillyneck]

Originally Posted by RockMolester

This is one of the ideas I proposed to Kurt as soon as we heard about this bullshit ruling, but perhaps a better idea would be to Occupy Deer Valley (or wherever) and get every club member, senior, veteran, and child we can, send 300 vehicles into Deer Valley, set up camp, and build some freakin' bridges over the creek crossings and do whatever trail maintenance is needed. Call in the press, document everything, wave American flags non-stop, and be kind and courteous and respectful to everyone and everything while making it perfectly clear that we will NOT allow the government to lock us out of any more of our PUBLIC lands.

We are NOT causing environmental problems and they know it! Show them that we can fix in 1 week what the government and the "environmentalists" can't do in a decade - and that we can do it without a bunch of damn environmental impact studies and millions of taxpayer dollars! If the government comes in to arrest us for taking the initiative to perform a self- funded volunteer environmental restoration project on the public lands that we cherish, then the media ought to side with US for once instead of the anti-access propagandists.

I like your style! Good proposal!

[FJCruisin_Wa]

I am not local and unfortunately have never had the chance to see the trails that are being closed. But I am watching this closely because I know what happens there can and likely will happen here unless this madness is topped. I am seeing a lot of good ideas in this thread.

One big org to fight the fight. This is not a slam at any of the many org's fighting on our behalf, I appreciate the work you all do. It's just that legal battles are costly, having one large pot to throw our efforts into would seem a better way to pool resources.

Time to get loud. Slam the occupy crowd all you want, but they are on the news quite often. It's time to get loud IMO

[mannysouza]

Sillyneck and rock molester, I like both these ideas!

[steveyos]

Originally Posted by Sillyneck

It's time to get loud, be heard and OPPOSE.

I want to roll 100 deep to Karen's home and lock ourselves down there for a week. Make her life suck... make her neighbors hate her more.

I like that idea.

[pete4wd]

Money for Land Use organizations is vital since volunteers can't do it all. That's a huge part of our problem, since as four wheelers, most think that someone else will do the vital advocacy and 'appearances' that are needed to get recognition.

I'm with UFWDA as a volunteer board member (like the rest of the BoD) and UFWDA have worked to change the perception of four wheeling over many years. Like most similar organizations we were impacted by the economic downturn several years ago because we too depend on people's discretionary income to provide the bulk of our funding.

I live in New Zealand where four wheeling has a following too and our national organization has about 2000 members, but that's from a total population of about 4 million people. Extend that to the USA with around 312 million people and there should be around 156,000 members of at least one 4x4 national organization! Yes, UFWDA is in fact an international organization which gives even greater vision of trends in land use and environmental issues.

UFWDA has a viable operation with a expert legal talent in Carla Boucher, who's specialized in land use and four wheeling issues over many years for UFWDA. To continue that work, UFWDA need to be able to fund it and the required trips to get those essential 'face to face' meetings with politicians and land management bodies like USFS and BLM.

We sometimes hear from various regions that UFWDA does nothing for them. That's often unfair as there is some work at federal levels that does not always have immediate outcomes and much of the background dialogue is hard to make press releases from. The effort is being made and more could be done with more money!

Have a look at www.ufwda.org and hit the 'join' tab. At US$20 for a year's membership, it might be the best investment you've made for a while (we'll settle for even half of that theoretical 156,000 membership). Only with the support of 4x4 recreation can an organization like UFWDA really make a difference. Invest and see.

[Mrs DuMass]

Jim got banned for this thread too:
#OccupyWallStreet
/forum/general-chit-chat/1009526-occupywallstreet.html


If it works for them why wouldn't we get the same results?

[momar]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

In general, $25,000 is a good starting point when considering filing legal action. Many efforts cannot raise the necessary funding for legal costs or cannot support standing to have the case accepted by the courts.

The legal system should be the last resort as they are expensive and time consuming.

First, let me thank you for your time and efforts in fighting for access.

Can we stop intervening then and start being a plaintiff so we can recoup some costs if/when we win?

It seems to me that the legal system is currently the most effective tool being used against us so why should it be a "last resort"? Plus as Randii mentioned, just knowing he was willing to sue has brought it's own benefits, or at least a different view of him...

Just some thoughts.

Thanks!

[kf6zpl]

Originally Posted by momar

First, let me thank you for your time and efforts in fighting for access.

Can we stop intervening then and start being a plaintiff so we can recoup some costs if/when we win?

It seems to me that the legal system is currently the most effective tool being used against us so why should it be a "last resort"? Plus as Randii mentioned, just knowing he was willing to sue has brought it's own benefits, or at least a different view of him...

Just some thoughts.

Thanks!

Well, I have though about it and realize you do not understand the type of legal cases BRC has been and is involved in.

Historically, BRC has filed as an intervenor in cases where environmental groups file lawsuits to close access to public lands.

However, there have been several cases where BRC has filed as a PLAINTIFF. The recent suit against the Six Rivers NF (in California) is one example. Another is the recent suit that struck down limitations on the federal defendant rule.

see: http://www.sharetrails.org/news/2011...toric-decision

And, in the original Eldorado suit, BRC (circa 2005) filed as an intervenor and plaintiff.

And, in Clear Creek BRC filed cross-complaint, as an intervenor and plaintiff.

So, BRC does file as a plaintiff when the situation warrants that type of action.

Currently there are 5 open lawsuits in California. BRC is lead on 4 of the lawsuits. See page 3 at: http://www.4x4voice.com/Notebook/NRC...cts/index.html One of those (Six Rivers NF) BRC is the PLAINTIFF.

Ecologic Partners is lead on the 5th -- Truckhaven/Ocotillo Wells/Anza Borrego Desert State Park. In that case, Ecologic is the PLAINTIFF.

According to my records (they are incomplete), over the past 10 years, BRC has spent about 50% of its time on California issues. Next in line are Utah, Colorado, Montana, and Tellico.

It is interesting to note that the environmental community has actually been reducing the number of lawsuits filed in the past 3-4 years. And, they are not achieving the big victories as in the past.

Del, Greg, Don, myself and a few others have discussed this. Our collective belief is that recreation groups are getting better at working with the agencies to address trail issues and comment on proposed project. Overall, that helps the agency propose better projects that are not as open to lawsuits with disastrous results for the OHV community.

I was at a meeting last week discussing the Johnson Valley issue and the big "Save the Hammers" fundraising effort. That is a lobbying effort, not a legal effort.

It was pointed out that funding is coming in from around the world and nation through the paypal account set up.

And, when you break it down to the state level, more money has been donated from northern California than from southern California.

Overall, California (especially southern California) is way down on the list for $$ donated. And yet, Johnson Valley is in their backyard.

[atvobsession]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

And, when you break it down to the state level, more money has been donated from northern California than from southern California.

Overall, California (especially southern California) is way down on the list for $$ donated. And yet, Johnson Valley is in their backyard.

Thanks. I was curious.

It won't be until Glamis is in the crosshairs, till you see real So Cal action.

[1977scout]

One thing. The US justice system is set up to work to satisfy the side with the most money.

BUT>>>>sometimes they have to uphold justice in order to save face.

It's taken Karen over 20 years to get this far, all because the some kids on dirt bikes keep buzzing her cabin and the Law either can't or won't restrain them.

the people who donate to the CBD, Sierra club. Wilderness Soc, etc are conservative in the sense that they want to turn the clock backwards to a time when an afternoon in the forest was a relaxing peaceful experience.

The Sierra club used to be all Republicans!

[9toebandito]

Originally Posted by Jeepndel

I'm not recognizing who you are 9toe, so please post up your organizational paid memberships, club affiliations, and donations you have made that you felt went to waste?

thanks, you do that and I'll be happy to help you get to the bottom of some better solutions.
thanks, Del

It's Eric Morales, Del.

I don't have a club, nor real affiliation. Im pretty sure the only memberships I have are BRC, Cal4wheel and a lifetime NRA membership!(thanks grandpa!)

I've donated a few grand in the last couple years either directly from myself or therough one of my companies. I don't feel any regret for any of those donations, nor am I accusing you or anyone else of misappropriation. I'd actually be happy with a "don't worry about it, we're on it!"

However, the theme to most land use "situations" does seem to be either damage control or a "war of attrition". I'll tell you what I was most surprised and bummed about... After one of the biggest closures in recent history, a) our land use organizations weren't up in arms. B) the first I heard of it was Facebook and C) the most any of these organizations have done is a "strong objection" An objection, after the fact, does basically squat and is almost insulting. That's like going back to Hitler after he invaded Poland and saying, "Hey, I don't like that! Don't do that please!".

Please... Let me be wrong

[MT4Runner]

Originally Posted by FJCruisin_Wa

I am not local and unfortunately have never had the chance to see the trails that are being closed. But I am watching this closely because I know what happens there can and likely will happen here unless this madness is topped.

I am not local, and unfortunately have never had the chance to see the trails that are temporarily closed.

...but I AM PISSED!


I'm fucking pissed that my friend Kurt Schneider who busts his ass for land use for the rest of us around the country can't take his 3 cool sons and cute wife on his local trails just to go camping, sit by the fire, and look up at the stars.

We're all in this together...and I'm going to do more than just watch this one go down.

[momar]

Originally Posted by kf6zpl

Well, I have though about it and realize you do not understand the type of legal cases BRC has been and is involved in.

Historically, BRC has filed as an intervenor in cases where environmental groups file lawsuits to close access to public lands.

However, there have been several cases where BRC has filed as a PLAINTIFF. The recent suit against the Six Rivers NF (in California) is one example. Another is the recent suit that struck down limitations on the federal defendant rule.

see: http://www.sharetrails.org/news/2011...toric-decision

And, in the original Eldorado suit, BRC (circa 2005) filed as an intervenor and plaintiff.

And, in Clear Creek BRC filed cross-complaint, as an intervenor and plaintiff.

So, BRC does file as a plaintiff when the situation warrants that type of action.

Currently there are 5 open lawsuits in California. BRC is lead on 4 of the lawsuits. See page 3 at: http://www.4x4voice.com/Notebook/NRC...cts/index.html One of those (Six Rivers NF) BRC is the PLAINTIFF.

Ecologic Partners is lead on the 5th -- Truckhaven/Ocotillo Wells/Anza Borrego Desert State Park. In that case, Ecologic is the PLAINTIFF.

According to my records (they are incomplete), over the past 10 years, BRC has spent about 50% of its time on California issues. Next in line are Utah, Colorado, Montana, and Tellico.

It is interesting to note that the environmental community has actually been reducing the number of lawsuits filed in the past 3-4 years. And, they are not achieving the big victories as in the past.

Del, Greg, Don, myself and a few others have discussed this. Our collective belief is that recreation groups are getting better at working with the agencies to address trail issues and comment on proposed project. Overall, that helps the agency propose better projects that are not as open to lawsuits with disastrous results for the OHV community.

I was at a meeting last week discussing the Johnson Valley issue and the big "Save the Hammers" fundraising effort. That is a lobbying effort, not a legal effort.

It was pointed out that funding is coming in from around the world and nation through the paypal account set up.

And, when you break it down to the state level, more money has been donated from northern California than from southern California.

Overall, California (especially southern California) is way down on the list for $$ donated. And yet, Johnson Valley is in their backyard.

Thank you for the information and explanation. I will admit i was unaware of some of these actions.

Some reasoning behind my thoughts:

I consider myself to be more knowledgeable/involved about land use issues than many, but no where near that of others.

These are the things i hear about/remember off the top of my head:

1. Tellico - TU/PEER sued USFS --> Tellico closed. I donated money and participated in the efforts to an extent, i think i even became a member of BRC initially because of this. I was not very happy with the orgs and the OHV community's ability to defeat this closure.

2. Eldorado route des - antis sued USFS --> thousands of miles of trails closed.

3. Rubicon - anti's after us again, OHVers win this one in my opinion due to county stepping up and elected officials feeling the heat from their constituents. efforts and documentation of FOTR/RTF etc.

4. current eldo closures - anti's sue USFS --> routes closed (partial or temporary maybe).

5. clear creek - don't really know much about that except for the outcome so i wont comment

6. grass valley - similar, don't know much about that one except for the outcome.

So for the cases i do know of off the top of my head, looks like the anti's sue the USFS and win and we get shut down trails. We try to be the nice guys and say we'll intervene and help the FS fix trails, etc. Which is GREAT in my opinion. However, i also think we need to be willing to say, you know what, we tried to work with you, but every time, we end up getting screwed, whether by the FS directly or by the FS via court order.

My point is if the anti's can sue the FS to get trails closed due to inadequate studies/faulty science, why can't we sue to get them opened for the SAME REASON!


Now, I admit that i am NOT up to date on everything that the orgs do for us and i could do a better job of that, and i don't expect to get spoonfed everything, but if orgs want MY MONEY then they should make sure i know what they are doing with it. And i should know with very little doubt that they are willing to get down and do whatever needs to be done to stop closures AND re-open closed trails.

That said, just yesterday i donated some money to the BRC legal fund, and I will renew my currently lapsed membership to both BRC and Cal4. I already donate money and time to RTF/FOTR and will continue to support land use initiatives as i can.

To the various orgs: please don't waste my money, please do whatever it takes to get our trails re-opened, don't settle for being the "nice guy", don't settle for closures.

[RockMolester]

Originally Posted by momar

So for the cases i do know of off the top of my head, looks like the anti's sue the USFS and win and we get shut down trails. We try to be the nice guys and say we'll intervene and help the FS fix trails, etc. Which is GREAT in my opinion. However, i also think we need to be willing to say, you know what, we tried to work with you, but every time, we end up getting screwed, whether by the FS directly or by the FS via court order.

My point is if the anti's can sue the FS to get trails closed due to inadequate studies/faulty science, why can't we sue to get them opened for the SAME REASON!

My sentiments exactly.

Since my family bought our house in Eldorado National Forest in 1971, we've been battling the corrupt and incompetent USFS nonstop. Part of the problem is that every time we finally make some headway by educating the district ranger in the historical, logical, and legal reasons for why these rights-of-way must remain open, they then wind up transferring to a new position within the USFS - so we wind up with a new man/woman in charge and we're back to square one in the battle. The cycle never ends.

The fact that most of the on-the-ground rangers we've dealt with are completely uneducated and/or corrupt is another issue, but nonetheless are still a big part of the problem.

Those of us who live and recreate in the forest know much more about forest management than the outsiders who get appointed to manage our forests for us. We have fought tooth and nail for every inch of forest trails that remain open today, but the fact of the matter is that there is an unrelenting march towards complete and utter closure of the Forest.

[dane]

Why do we give money to land use?

The sad answer:

I DON'T KNOW!!

Dane

[Jeepndel]

Originally Posted by Brothergrim

Don't get me wrong, BRC is great and I am a member, but let's not forget one of the first organation that started to fight for off roaders rights and public lands use.

For sure, we should always remember our state and regional associations, depending on where you live. Anyone who does landuse with a passion knows this to be the fundamental element of our survival -- JOIN everything that makes sense to you and supports your sport (that you can afford).

Del

[Jeepndel]

Originally Posted by 9toebandito

It's Eric Morales, Del. I don't have a club, nor real affiliation. Im pretty sure the only memberships I have are BRC, Cal4wheel and a lifetime NRA membership!(thanks grandpa!) I've donated a few grand in the last couple years either directly from myself or therough one of my companies.

KEWL, Eric, I didn't know it was you. And I fully KNOW you have donated bucks (and more) to help the cause. Thanks for THAT!

And as far as the Eldo, things are going to get stomping, and probably, unfortunately in court. What is hard for us on forums to understand is that there is a public process we HAVE to go thru to be "standing" in court or wherever this all ends up.

NEPA and the legal system require steps -- official complaints; notice of intent to sue; lawsuits; filings; meetings, and more....I can't fix that. None of this is secret, either. You can read about this junk until you're blue in the face, starting with John Stewart's web pages if you want to.

Thanks again, Eric (9toe).

Del