Why do we give money to "Land Use" organizations?

[9toebandito]

First off, let me state, that I am NOT attacking any individual or organization. I have some questions that I feel others may have too.


Ok, so with the recent closures we're having in NorCal, and others across the country which I'm sure are in imminent danger, what do the Land Use organizations do for us? I feel pretty blindsided by them, and am having a hard time believing that no one knew about them. I'm wondering, in part, where are our donation $$$ going, and what is on the agenda or what is a threat for the near future. Not that they don't need the vacation, but I'm pretty sure a couple of our "biggest" advocates are partying it up at Moab EJS. Seems like they should be up in arms over this.

I know it's been preached, for the last couple years, that "we need to educate". Well, it seems that a huge lesson has just been handed down by a big Green bitch slap. I think education is part of it, but where is the offense? Where are our lawsuits to keep the trails open? Why are we not hearing from BRC, or Cal 4 wheel? All I see is a mediocre war of attrition... It feels like those in charge are just rolling over and taking it.... Playing catch up... However you want to put it. The only action I've seen lately has been for the Hammers, and that's great, but what about the other thousands of OHV acres that are being threatened! Correct me if I'm wrong, and please let me be wrong, but Jeff Knoll and his group going to Washington to fight and meet with our congressmen a couple weeks ago, was the first and only proactive, public fight I've seen. Now, I know there have been other people meeting with their congressmen locally and that's huge.... But this isn't about the individual. I'd like to know how our OHV reps are fighting for us!

I have other thoughts, but I'll keep them to myself for the moment.

Rant over.... For now

[Bebe]

Well - you and I have had more than one conversation about this, not recently but, doesn't it seem as though there is an ongoing theme here?

This is public Info
http://www.sharetrails.org/sites/def...rms/10F990.pdf

[cmarjeep]

Maybe its just me but $308,000 for salaries and other compensation seems a bit much to me. Looking at the tax form from another non-profit in CA, Calguns, they only brought in $110,000 for the whole year and paid out $0 to lawyers or their board of directors. Every time I go on their forum they seem to be suing, and winning, people to regain their rights.

BRC pulled in three quarters of million dollars in 2010 yet they seemingly let the greenies shut down 4x4 use in Eldorado National Forest. I think there is something broken in the system.

[Bebe]

Originally Posted by cmarjeep

Maybe its just me but $308,000 for salaries and other compensation seems a bit much to me. Looking at the tax form from another non-profit in CA, Calguns, they only brought in $110,000 for the whole year and paid out $0 to lawyers or their board of directors. Every time I go on their forum they seem to be suing, and winning, people to regain their rights.

BRC pulled in three quarters of million dollars in 2010 yet they seemingly let the greenies shut down 4x4 use in Eldorado National Forest. I think there is something broken in the system.

Because CalGuns are suing and winning....intervening is a money pit no one can afford.

You can be reimbursed via EAJA for legal expenses as a litigant, not as an Intervenor.

[cmarjeep]

Originally Posted by Bebe

Because CalGuns are suing and winning....intervening is a money pit no one can afford.

You can be reimbursed via EAJA for legal expenses as a litigant, not as an Intervenor.

I see. Maybe we need to start suing and winning then.

[Bebe]

Do I hear an {{{{echo}}}}?

[stoneyxj]

I was thinking the exact same thing today.
Are there no lawyers on pirate that are willing to put in some time to be "suing and winning!!"??

[R290]

Originally Posted by stoneyxj

I was thinking the exact same thing today.
Are there no lawyers on pirate that are willing to put in some time to be "suing and winning!!"??

Dude there are those doing probono work, but it's not easy to win.
The Center for Bio Diversity brings in 10,000,000 in donations each year.
They have 10 full time lawyers working many cases all over the country.

So we as an OHV group have to pony up even more money. Yes.
Its a long game, not one won with just one court date.

Just look at gay marriage, that issue is still being fought over, with no end in sight. OHV is just like that. Its not going away.

The RTF brings in thousands, which is not even penny's on the dollar to the CBD

So do your part and volunteer on work days to fix issue that can cause the lawyers issues. That goes for everyone. We need people to help out when and where they can. If you can give money great, if you can give time and money even better.

To stay within the rules for land uses and post fact here you go. It's their 2010 taxes I found online.
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/p...D_2010_990.pdf

Looks like I was off a couple million

[cruzila]

You have (need? have?) to give. The 990 above shows that CBD has a huge portion of the population giving to them to just feel good because they gave.

It is about giving. Giving implies there will be no reciprocation, no obligation to have a return other than feeling good about helping.

But, it is more than that and there does need to be responsible accounting of funds and all that. BRC is out there doing good stuff. We can not expect them to win them all. That is not a reality in this world. Support them because it is the right thing to do. Right for OHV.

[Wilson]

Originally Posted by cruzila

You have (need? have?) to give. The 990 above shows that CBD has a huge portion of the population giving to them to just feel good because they gave.

It is about giving. Giving implies there will be no reciprocation, no obligation to have a return other than feeling good about helping.

But, it is more than that and there does need to be responsible accounting of funds and all that. BRC is out there doing good stuff. We can not expect them to win them all. That is not a reality in this world. Support them because it is the right thing to do. Right for OHV.

What have they "won" is perhaps a better question?

[MT4Runner]

Originally Posted by R290

Dude there are those doing probono work, but it's not easy to win.
The Center for Bio Diversity brings in 10,000,000 in donations each year.
They have 10 full time lawyers working many cases all over the country.

So we as an OHV group have to pony up even more money. Yes.
Its a long game, not one won with just one court date.

Just look at gay marriage, that issue is still being fought over, with no end in sight. OHV is just like that. Its not going away.

So "we" need to have some pitbull attorneys fighting some small battles to win them and recoup costs under EAJA.

To which group do I give for this to happen?

I don't want my money to go to feed the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike. I want my money to go to the guy who's going for the jugular.

Maybe we'll lose. Maybe it'll be a Pyrrhic victory. I'd at least like to go down swinging.


THIS IS SPARTA!!

[Ghetto Fab.]

Whats interesting is "who" is donating to the CBD? I don't know anyone else besides me that knows of the CBD.

It sounds like what we really need is a national presence. We need one group that has strong leadership that all the ohv users can get behind and support. Then we need to get that out in the media in a good way so that it becomes a common household name. Then we get monies and sue everyone else.

Kevo

PS. Just to be clear, I apreciate everyone fighting the good fight. We wouldn't have what we have now with out you!

[Curly]

Originally Posted by Ghetto Fab.

Whats interesting is "who" is donating to the CBD? I don't know anyone else besides me that knows of the CBD.

It sounds like what we really need is a national presence. We need one group that has strong leadership that all the ohv users can get behind and support.

Agreed! We have too many small groups. We need one focused group that can deliver precise strategic blows. Things are spread around way too much and it's hard to know who to get behind. I'm done "pissing in the wind" giving my hard earned cash and labor to small disorganized groups, with continual in fighting and miscommunication.

In my personal opinion, any donation no matter how large or small should come with at least a little comfort of "Knowing" it will make a difference. It is a hard pill to swallow, giving time, effort and monies with one hand and just as fast as I do these things I use my other hand to hold an article and read about the next level of closures.

No matter how we sugar coat it or justify it, we were blind sided by this last level of hits and closures. How can this happen? Why did this happen? More importantly, this can't continue to happen. I hear people say we need to be more self informed. Sure I get that and try where I can but let me ask you this: Is the average "greenie" spending hours a day studying up on the latest information about what closures they need to blindly get behind next? Nope they are spoon fed information and told where and when to send money, protest and write letters and they follow with precision. This is what we are up against and in this particular situation we were out flanked.

BRC, Corva, Cal 4 wheel, Savetrails.org bla, bla, bla, take your pick. Seems like everybody and their brother has a campaign for saving our trails but all I see is continual trail losses. I am more than willing to continue fighting the good fight, whether that be monetarily or with my back but we need to be focused and get our preverbal crap together.

I certainly don't have all the answers but I do know from experience that we have the People, passion and drive to make a difference. We just need to focus all that great energy into "One" driving force we can all get behind and support one hundred percent. Just my humble opinion.

Tim.

[randii]

Originally Posted by MT4Runner

So "we" need to have some pitbull attorneys fighting some small battles to win them and recoup costs under EAJA.

This is why I joined Public Lands for the People -- they were the only non-greenie organization that would step up and sue on the last go-round. Has anyone else here sued USFS?

Originally Posted by MT4Runner

I don't want my money to go to feed the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike.

Funny!

Originally Posted by MT4Runner

Maybe we'll lose. Maybe it'll be a Pyrrhic victory. I'd at least like to go down swinging.

That was my take... and that case has thus far gone down. But USFS knows they got sued, and not just by the anti's. When I go to one of those forest planning meetings, I'm treated differently... defferentially. It ain't because of my good looks or sterling personality... it is because my name was listed on legal paperwork against them. Even losing legally, IMHO, I won influence.

That's how Karen gets most of her power... she bullies them. USFS KNOWS she will sue them, and they bend in her direction on most every case. As for OHV, USFS knows from experience that most of us will belly-ache, that our organizations *may* intervene, and that eventually, we'll be rolled over top of.

Randii

[randii]

Originally Posted by Curly

Agreed! We have too many small groups. We need one focused group that can deliver precise strategic blows.

May I add several words, Tim?
IMHO, we need one focused, effective, and accountable group that can deliver precise strategic blows.

Originally Posted by Curly

In my personal opinion, any donation no matter how large or small should come with at least a little comfort of "Knowing" it will make a difference.

Agreed 100%!

Randii

[71BRONCO71]

Originally Posted by MT4Runner

So "we" need to have some pitbull attorneys fighting some small battles to win them and recoup costs under EAJA.

I vote we put Sillyneck in a suit and let him speak

[Bebe]

Originally Posted by 71BRONCO71

I vote we put Sillyneck in a suit and let him speak

[MT4Runner]

Originally Posted by randii

This is why I joined Public Lands for the People -- they were the only non-greenie organization that would step up and sue on the last go-round.

That was my take... and that case has thus far gone down. But USFS knows they got sued, and not just by the anti's. When I go to one of those forest planning meetings, I'm treated differently... defferentially. It ain't because of my good looks or sterling personality... it is because my name was listed on legal paperwork against them. Even losing legally, IMHO, I won influence.

Where/how do I join?

I was a member of Montanans for Multiple Use. They sued, they got attention; I was happy to back the pitbull. Sadly most of the old guard has retired.

Originally Posted by 71BRONCO71

I vote we put Sillyneck in a suit and let him speak

[jays68yak]

Originally Posted by 71BRONCO71

I vote we put Sillyneck in a suit and let him speak

3rd that.

[71BRONCO71]

I dont know of ANYONE that can argue with silly Phil and win... well, except Mrs Sillyneck

[Ghetto Fab.]

Do we really need to start another group that may not go anywhere, or could we use one of the allready existing groups? Might as well not reinvent the wheel and throw another ring in an allready somewhat crowded fire, however I wouldn't want to step on any of the toes of those allready commited to the good fight.

I see that BRC is a national group, I thought they were just regional, maybe we could prod them to be more on the offense? Maybe they could form a subgroup like the BRC pitbulls or something.

Really just talking out loud here when I should be working.

Kevo

[Jeepndel]

Dozens of lawsuits have been filed in CA by the southern CA groups (a conglomerate of organizations cooperating to pay one law firm guy to file on their behalf). As far as I know, all of them put together has not scared the feds one bit. I could be wrong. But at least they were filing. May still be as I'm not in that loop. It ran up quite a bill, tho.

Not that any one group is perfect, I can say that BRC is involved in DOZENS of lawsuits, in virtually a dozen federal courts all over the country. But I hate to see landuse money going to court fights, personally. It's just something we have to do these days.

You can see the whole list of accomplishments and successes here: https://www.sharetrails.org/about/accomplishments

Del

[Jeepndel]

Originally Posted by Ghetto Fab.

I see that BRC is a national group, I thought they were just regional, maybe we could prod them to be more on the offense? Maybe they could form a subgroup like the BRC pitbulls or something.

SWEET. BRC Pitbulls. I LIKE. We got some of them -- Kurtuleas for one!!!

Oh, and Kurtuleas, Bebe and Lyin' King are all part of the BRC Kickin' Access Team (KAT) to help keep forums like Pirate posted and updated on everything BRC does (and doesn't do). Should we elevate them to Pitbulls?

Seriously, I know I've tried a dozen ways to engage more people before "the gates went up." Unfortunately, it seems to be our backyard that has to be under attack before we really tune up and fight back like pitbulls. But it's never too late.

Just look at the Rubicon for the greatest example in the country of folks SETTING ASIDE club and group differences to UNIFY, KICK ACCESS and take over a trail - yes, a county road...but nonetheless, it was more threatened than most will ever know. And still, FOTR and RTF stand firm, take control, fight back, work cooperatively where they can, and keep the 'Con open to us.

Del

[Jeepndel]

Originally Posted by 9toebandito

First off, let me state, that I am NOT attacking any individual or organization. I have some questions that I feel others may have too.

I'm not recognizing who you are 9toe, so please post up your organizational paid memberships, club affiliations, and donations you have made that you felt went to waste?

thanks, you do that and I'll be happy to help you get to the bottom of some better solutions.
thanks, Del

[kf6zpl]

Originally Posted by Jeepndel

Dozens of lawsuits have been filed in CA by the southern CA groups (a conglomerate of organizations cooperating to pay one law firm guy to file on their behalf). As far as I know, all of them put together has not scared the feds one bit. I could be wrong. But at least they were filing. May still be as I'm not in that loop. It ran up quite a bill, tho.

Not that any one group is perfect, I can say that BRC is involved in DOZENS of lawsuits, in virtually a dozen federal courts all over the country. But I hate to see landuse money going to court fights, personally. It's just something we have to do these days.

You can see the whole list of accomplishments and successes here: https://www.sharetrails.org/about/accomplishments

Del

There are two groups in California that have been active on the legal front within the past 10-15 years.

BRC (with partners CA4WDC and AMA D-36) - BRC is nation wide with partners in other states. BRC was the first to file to keep the Southern California Deserts open.
Ecologic Partners (AMA D-37, ORBA, SDORC and ASA) - Limited range to Southern Cal and OHMVR issues.

Another two groups have been active on specific issues:

Friends of Oceano Dunes (Oceano Dunes SVRA)
California Nevada Snowmobile Association (snowmobile issues)

There are regional legal efforts in Washington, Idaho, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, New Mexico, and North Carolina (Tellico). There is also an active snowmobile association alliance that has been active in many states with winter access issues. These are by no means ALL of the on-going legal efforts; just a general collection and ones that have filed and been party to a case in court as a plaintiff or intervenor.

BRC has been involved with many of these efforts.

In general, $25,000 is a good starting point when considering filing legal action. Many efforts cannot raise the necessary funding for legal costs or cannot support standing to have the case accepted by the courts.

The legal system should be the last resort as they are expensive and time consuming.