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Old 04-17-2012, 08:02 AM   #26 (permalink)
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We can win if we stand together, but its gonna be a hell of a fight, and I want to spend my effort on fighting to save JV, not fighting to keep a group working together.

I have asked a number of questions in this thread and none have been answered but I will ask another. Why do we not have offers of help from specialists in NEPA if it can save JV? I am only the manager I am not a specialists in any of this.

My only Job is to write a monthly Newsletter for the Off Road Business Association after all.
A good start would be for ORBA and CMRC to start having some open meetings
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:05 AM   #27 (permalink)
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A good start would be for ORBA and CMRC to start having some open meetings
Would you attend, or just throw rotten vegetables from the weeds? (serious)
If you attended, would you have a bag over your head to protect your anonymity? (joking)

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Old 04-17-2012, 08:20 AM   #28 (permalink)
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A good start would be for ORBA and CMRC to start having some open meetings
Are you retarded? Have you read any of this thread?

CMRC has been telling the leaders of all the orgs under the umbrella to take the info back to their members. If you're a CORVA guy go get pissed at the CORVA rep for not sharing the info.

I'm so over the big orgs, all you guys do is create drama. You bemoan about the declining member numbers and wonder why you cant get any new members. Look in the mirror for your answers.

Your ideas on how to fight this fight are out dated, we're getting our asses kicked on a daily basis for years yet you stick to the same game plan. What's the definition of insanity again?

Do you really think you're going to get anywhere with the politicians in Sacremento by storming the halls in you orange shirts and harassing them? What you're going to do is piss them off and just become the butt of a bunch of jokes among them after you leave, again, cause that's how you guys have always done it.


I had a thought this morning.....When there was one land use org they fought for access, as soon as the second land use org hit the scene they fought for funds and access became secondary.

So you guys can keep throwing barbs at each other and making your snarky comments from fake screenames you think you're hiding behind. I'm going to move forward and fight the good fight.

Later days holmes.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:22 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Well, like it or not that's my input, thanks........
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:53 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I had a thought this morning.....When there was one land use org they fought for access, as soon as the second land use org hit the scene they fought for funds and access became secondary.
And instantly the power of the people was divided in half.
How many orgs do we have now - we divided and conquered ourselves.

Until there is ONE front for ALL users and we're on the same page, I'll just keep spending my money on doing things that actually make a difference and not the orgs. I don't need a 3 month outdated newsletter in my mail box (or a 1 month outdated one in my email) - My $25-40/year would do more good a thousand other ways, including wiping my ass because after all the orgs are done compromising away our forests and land, there won't be any spotted owls or snowy plovers left to wipe with..

Former CA4WDC member (about 15 years, and the last 4 or 5 years were ONLY because to be an officer in our Club you had to be a member to meet the bylaws, because CA4WDC won't let you belong as a club without minimum member number)
Former UFWDA Member -1 year, never saw any reason to rejoin, even the electronic newsletter was boring enough I never read more than the 2 or 3
Not CORVA member (haven't pulled their heads out of their asses for as long as I have known about them)
Current BRC member - only because they do the least harm and I got a gift card for ATV stuff that covered most of my membership. hell I get more than $20 worth of paper and postage in the mail they waste asking me for more money every month.

signed, a disgruntled L/U guy that doesn't hide behind BS screennames



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Old 04-17-2012, 11:26 AM   #31 (permalink)
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a disgruntled L/U guy that doesn't hide behind BS screennames
Enjoy it wile you can as far as why some of us do I would say you are pretty close to finding out at least one of the reasons for yourself


What bugs me is why it only matters in some cases

Quote:
CMRC has been telling the leaders of all the orgs under the umbrella to take the info back to their members. If you're a CORVA guy go get pissed at the CORVA rep for not sharing the info.
No I'm pissed because many CORVA members did not agree to have it's BOD controlled by ORBA, and as far as hiding behind BS names on the Internet funny nobody gave a rats ass when CORVA was destroyed in it's 2008 Election by an anonymous web site CORVA2008
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:32 AM   #32 (permalink)
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No I'm pissed because many CORVA members did not agree to have it's BOD controlled by ORBA,
Maybe you need to take that issue up with the people elected to the CORVA board
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:31 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I had a thought this morning.....When there was one land use org they fought for access, as soon as the second land use org hit the scene they fought for funds and access became secondary.
Seems disturbingly accurate lately, Eric. I wasn't around when there was only one Land Use organization? Who claims the longest history, anyway?

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...and as far as hiding behind BS names on the Internet funny nobody gave a rats ass when CORVA was destroyed in it's 2008 Election by an anonymous web site CORVA2008
Two wrongs = right?

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So you guys can keep throwing barbs at each other and making your snarky comments from fake screenames you think you're hiding behind. I'm going to move forward and fight the good fight.
I'd say that the Tinbenders have been doing a pretty damn good job with activism and fund-raising.... keep up that good work!
I decided to focus my efforts locally where I could engage and actually see the benefits I'm volunteering and investing in...

Randii

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Old 04-17-2012, 12:45 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Enjoy it wile you can as far as why some of us do I would say you are pretty close to finding out at least one of the reasons for yourself


What bugs me is why it only matters in some cases

No I'm pissed because many CORVA members did not agree to have it's BOD controlled by ORBA, and as far as hiding behind BS names on the Internet funny nobody gave a rats ass when CORVA was destroyed in it's 2008 Election by an anonymous web site CORVA2008
That's it - Buzzdroid/Orange Crash - I was pissed about the whole CORVA BOD BS too, but now you are saying crap that is totally untrue.

CORVA's BOD couldn't be controlled by ORBA...too many swinging peni on that Board...it will never happen.

Right now the cowardice of Anonymous Screen names is really starting to P*$$ me off, you guys are lucky there is a code among mods about banning outside of our own forums.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:50 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Right now the cowardice of Anonymous Screen names is really starting to P*$$ me off, you guys are lucky there is a code among mods about banning outside of our own forums
Then copy the rules on face book don't cry to me I have done nothing wrong per the rules on the board but disagree thanks.....
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:55 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Hey Jeff, serious question I am a member of: CORVA, Cal 4Wheel, CNSA, ARRA, BRC

I have not received a comprehensive explanation of anything.

How do I get a copy of this from ORBA (or you) if I am not a member? I do not have an off road business, so could not be a member.

AFAIAK, Hammerking, ORBA, SEMA are unavailable to me as a general member of the public.

ASA, AMA national, AMA D 36, AMA D37, ISA, MIC are unavailable to me as I am not a moto guy. I do not even know what the last 2 are.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:00 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I have a copy.

PM me your email address.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:33 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Just a few questions here.
Somewhere above it mentioned the hiring of a DC lobbyist. I also feel that this has been a clandestine effort as nothing has been mentioned in forum or publication as to the plan of action. No details, nothing. This thread points out that the organizations collecting money for this effort are not keeping their members updated.

What has been done at this point in the process? I agree that this will need to be done, but not yet.

The FEIS (Final Environmental Impact Statement) is supposed to be released on the 27th of this month. Usually the ROD (Record of Decision) is released at some point after the ROD is released. Usually 30/60/90 day period for comment/protests/appeals (can’t remember the exact term here).

Until the ROD is released, it won’t be assigned to a committee and you don’t know which committee to lobby ( I think there really is only 2 maybe 3 choices of committee that this issue could end up in), or if those individuals on that committee will still be in office when this comes to vote. And, there is always the possibility that the ROD will disagree with what the Marines want and lobbying will be completely unnecessary. If you believe what the Commandant said about reducing total strength and getting back to the primary mission of the Marine Corps, then this might be the way it goes. (Being a retired Marine, spending 21 years in the Infantry, does give me a little bit different view than most here will have. But putting a point on it, the Commandant said what others wanted to hear. The Marine Corps has never, and will never voluntarily draw it’s forces down, and will never turn down a mission. As there is fear that it will disappear completely)

So until the ROD is released, is this not a premature expenditure?
Or are we only paying them at this point to plan the lobbying activities?
Again, I fully believe that these actions will be needed. But I think someone is pulling the trigger just a tad bit early.

We have many problems in this state with land use. Many issues that need to be corrected. How many of you were at Lobby Days yesterday? Why didn't Cal4Wheel push members to attend? I am not a CORVA member for personal reasons. So I don't read what they put out, but from reading everything here, they aren't much better than Cal4Wheel at it. D37? Haven't seen anything on their forum either, nor any public press release. Haven't seen an actual ORBA Newsletter for over a year from them. Maybe they are being distributed differently now that Jeff is doing them. I actually feel shamed that the orgs that I do belong to, didn’t participate in Lobby Days. It should be their main focus as it is California. Why isn't more business' supporting and attending Lobby Day? I know of only one that was there. Tony from Genright. He has been there for many years. Where is the rest? Is that not what ORBA is suppose to be doing?

My point in the previous paragraph is that several people here are right. No united front, no progress.

All of these organizations have board meetings. It is a law for any 501c3-7 to keep meeting minutes. Some do, some don't. Some are required for them to be made public. So ask for them. If they say no, report them to the AG office. You have a right to that information if you belong to that group. How can you decide if you support all of their actions if you don’t know what those actions are. Any organization that does not provide them to it's own membership, is a shady org and should be stayed away from.

We all can’t be dedicated to this cause 24/7. We have to earn a living and support our families. So don’t hold it against those that can’t. We already have too many cooks in the kitchen. And the stew has spoiled. But any and all financial support is greatly welcomed. Too bad it isn't just one organization.

Sorry for the length, it started with one topic and I ended up on a soap box.

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Old 04-18-2012, 08:38 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Joe...

You make many valid points here.

I enjoyed reading your post.
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:00 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Somewhere above it mentioned the hiring of a DC lobbyist. I also feel that this has been a clandestine effort as nothing has been mentioned in forum or publication as to the plan of action. No details, nothing. This thread points out that the organizations collecting money for this effort are not keeping their members updated.
Hey Joe...

Using the word "Clandestine" IMO is WAY to overkill here. While I agree some of the orgs may have not kept thier members updated...the CRMC plan has been constantly blasted into peoples faces. From day one, Jeff has said that this entire battle they are fighting needs to be transparent, and it has been.

This info has been especially all over facebook and here on Pirate.

If you don't have a facebook account, I would recommend getting one and adding people like Jeff, Del, John, all the orgs and even companies that put out land-use stuff occasionally like Pirate, Genright, CRAWL etc...

There is also a lot of updates posted on this board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmith7364 View Post
The FEIS (Final Environmental Impact Statement) is supposed to be released on the 27th of this month. .
Uh... no. It's been put back a month. This was HEAVILY blasted all over Facebook.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmith7364 View Post
If you believe what the Commandant said about reducing total strength and getting back to the primary mission of the Marine Corps, then this might be the way it goes. (Being a retired Marine, spending 21 years in the Infantry, does give me a little bit different view than most here will have. But putting a point on it, the Commandant said what others wanted to hear. The Marine Corps has never, and will never voluntarily draw it’s forces down, and will never turn down a mission. As there is fear that it will disappear completely).
I have posted multiple threads here on Pirate, and thru FB about the Marines downsizing thru the current Task Force Review. It's NOT just lip service from the Commandant. It is NOT a rumor. It IS happening.

Furthermore, check the news. The Department of Defence is getting hit HARD becuase of lack of money. Unfortunatley for all the branches of our military, there will be MAJOR cutbacks. The DOD just released a new budget. It looks like there will be several rounds of base closures. They will not voluntarily draw down, but unfortunatley, they will be forced too..

How can they be EXPANDING one base, while others will be cut back significantly? This is a question that NEEDS to be proposed to our reps... "Hey! Why are you letting our local military base be closed? There's a Marine Corps base in Southern CA that is being expanded, so don't blame it on the budget! What are YOU doing wrong?"

All of this is REALLY bad for the defense of our nation, but it's a plus for saving JV.

However, THAT is not our "ace in the hole"

This is the key part: Even if the Marines WERE NOT cutting back, they do not need to expand JV.

A quick summary (Which has been posted several times over on this board)

As a Marine, you know what their job is.

But for the past 10 years, especially in 2004...they were doing the ARMY'S job. They have been used as a 2nd Army. (Like in Fallujah) Since they were being used in this way, they had to train "as they fight" and therefore proposed expanding JV, to train for mass land battles. The Commadant called it a "2-fer" in many different speeches throughout 2011.

Well, this is the LAST thing that they want to be seen as, a "2nd land Army" Becuase if that's what they are doing, Congress may say, "Well...what the hell do we need 2 land Armies for? Let's cut back the Marines! We already have an Army!"

So thru the task force review, the Marines are going back to thier roots. As a middle-weight, show up before everyone else and kick ass until the Army and everyone else shows up" force. With the current DOD budjet, this is even more criticval to them.

Current models out of the pentagon show smaller battles in the littorals within what they call "The Arc of Instability".... we will be doing more operations to avoid war than fighting mass land battles.

Bottomline, the Marines DO NOT need to expand JV becuase they will no longer be used as a second land-army.



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Many issues that need to be corrected. How many of you were at Lobby Days yesterday? Why didn't Cal4Wheel push members to attend? I am not a CORVA member for personal reasons. So I don't read what they put out, but from reading everything here, they aren't much better than Cal4Wheel at it. D37? Haven't seen anything on their forum either, nor any public press release. Haven't seen an actual ORBA Newsletter for over a year from them. Maybe they are being distributed differently now that Jeff is doing them. I actually feel shamed that the orgs that I do belong to, didn’t participate in Lobby Days. It should be their main focus as it is California. Why isn't more business' supporting and attending Lobby Day? I know of only one that was there. Tony from Genright. He has been there for many years. Where is the rest? Is that not what ORBA is suppose to be doing?
While going to lobby days at the state capitol IS important....when it comes to JV, it's useless. The State is not making the call when it comes to JV, its the Feds. California OHMVR had our back with JV, they made a statement that they do not think JV needs to be expanded... that's about as much as they can do...make a statement.

We DID push for an OHV "Lobby Day" for people to meet with their reps about Johnson Valley and OHV use. Even Erik Miller, the Current King of the Hammers, made a "First Commandment" asking people to set meetings with thier Congressmen. Many did...

Here's my report on my meeting:

/forum/land-use-issues/1052779-report-my-ohv-lobby-day-meeting-my-congressman.html

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My point in the previous paragraph is that several people here are right. No united front, no progress.
There's a United Front. ALL the CA orgs are working together on this as CMRC. I am pretty juiced about that. And they ARE making progress, and have a solid, detailed (and growing) plan to save Johnson Valley.

BTW: Thank you for your service to our country. While I don't want the Marines expanding into JV, I have the utmost respect for them. (My Uncle was a Marine in Vietnam...Bronze Star and purple heart, a couple of those I think. On a side note, my Aunt used to wheel with your club a few years back... Bo knows her. Neese, not Jackson. )
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:38 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Kurt...

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Originally Posted by jsmith7364
The FEIS (Final Environmental Impact Statement) is supposed to be released on the 27th of this month. .
Quote:
Uh... no. It's been put back a month. This was HEAVILY blasted all over Facebook
.

Are you providing that the FEIS is pushed back until late May of this year?

I had not heard that.

But now, having done some research, I see you are correct.

From the Products website April Update:

Quote:
The Marine Corps is following the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process to study theenvironmental impacts of a reasonable range of alternatives, which includes public review and comment on
issues and proposed alternatives. The Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) is scheduled to bepublished in May or June of 2012 and the Record of Decision (ROD) is scheduled to follow in August 2012.
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:52 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Kurt...



.

Are you providing that the FEIS is pushed back until late May of this year?

I had not heard that.
Yuppers.

That is the info that I have.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:04 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Kurt...



.

Are you providing that the FEIS is pushed back until late May of this year?

I had not heard that.
Imagine that. Its been up on the face book page for a week or more. We don't have a date yet, but are working on it.



I will not be using Pirate4x4 as a ways and means to distribute information any longer. If you wish to get the most up to date information please visit the Savethehammers.org site or the facebook fan pages "save the hammers" and "Save Johnson Valley"

It has proven an in effective use of time to chase questions all over the web on various forums. We will focus our efforts exclusively at those locations from now on.

Sorry if you don't use Facebook. The Savethehammers.org website should fill the gap for you if that's the case.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:18 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Imagine that. Its been up on the face book page for a week or more. We don't have a date yet, but are working on it.



I will not be using Pirate4x4 as a ways and means to distribute information any longer. If you wish to get the most up to date information please visit the Savethehammers.org site or the facebook fan pages "save the hammers" and "Save Johnson Valley"

It has proven an in effective use of time to chase questions all over the web on various forums. We will focus our efforts exclusively at those locations from now on.

Sorry if you don't use Facebook. The Savethehammers.org website should fill the gap for you if that's the case.
Sorry to hear this Jeff.

The traffic through just this site alone far exceeds any that your likely to get on Facebook.

Message boards are a great way to communicate.

I'd think that if in your position, you would want to participate in all the message boards that are somehow tied to this issue and spread the word. After all, isn't part of the job to obtain donations (new customers) and advertising far and wide a great way to get it done?
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:52 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Sorry to hear this Jeff.

The traffic through just this site alone far exceeds any that your likely to get on Facebook.

Message boards are a great way to communicate.

I'd think that if in your position, you would want to participate in all the message boards that are somehow tied to this issue and spread the word. After all, isn't part of the job to obtain donations (new customers) and advertising far and wide a great way to get it done?

My experience is showing that the facebook is a better form of communication when I look at total reach. So far this thread has 1000 something views. at least 35 of those are mine, maybe as many as 50? I have to assume that the participants in this discussion make up at least half of those.

With facebook we are reaching outside the circle of people who come here, and it takes literally seconds for us to link information. In some cases my RSS feed does it automatically. Plus we get the added bonus of people sharing that info on their own walls.

This was discussed and agreed upon by the JV sub committee last night at our meeting.

My Job at CMRC is to represent ORBA as a Delegate, and keep them abreast of whats going on with the various issues. My Job as Chairman of the JV sub group. is to manage the various items that we are working on, and make sure we stay on task, including the best use of time, return on investment, and following the strategic plan. Lastly I present all items discussed for a vote to the CMRC delegates. Donations to the SavetheHammers.org campaign is the entire subcommittee's job, not just mine.

if you are talking about ORBA that's something entirely different.

Please hit me up on email or facebook with any further questions. Have a good weekend, hopefully you can enjoy some offroading this weekend as the weather is great.

Last edited by xxxxxxxxxxxxxJeff Knoll; 04-20-2012 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:25 AM   #46 (permalink)
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It sure has become popular to question, interrogate, chastise or even attack people and groups fighting for OHV public land preservation lately.

I guess folks are looking for somewhere to dump their frustrations and the CBD doesnít openly visit this site like our land access champions do.

Speaking of the CBD, since the trend of looking up all the non-profits form 990s has become so popular has anyone bothered to check theirs?

That vast wealth the green crew uses against us is well known but perhaps some people arenít aware just how vast it really is.

The included link illustrates the monetary green power just one of the anti-access groups carries in black and white. This wealth came from corporations of course and approximately 1.5 million individual members. Mind you this is just the CBD . . . ONE group!!!

There are over 50 million OHV users in America and plenty of corporations that depend on us for their livelihoods. If we combined the monetary resources of every pro-access group in the entire Nation, the total would not equal that of this ONE group.

CBD 990 2010 http://207.153.189.83/EINS/850420285...0_07980530.PDF
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:17 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Well, Jeff -- I'll miss the intelligent dialogue, and will endeavor to stay abreast of the JV situation with respect to CMRC on the STH.org site or through my state association. I appreciate the hard work, regardless!

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It sure has become popular to question, interrogate, chastise or even attack people and groups fighting for OHV public land preservation lately.
I guess folks are looking for somewhere to dump their frustrations and the CBD doesnít openly visit this site like our land access champions do.
It is certainly easier to dismiss discussion as 'dumping' than it is to stop and consider the benefits of having an open discussion. 'Tis a shame that some organizations choose to bury their heads in the sand (I'm *not* talking about CMRC)...

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Speaking of the CBD, since the trend of looking up all the non-profits form 990s has become so popular has anyone bothered to check theirs?
It comes up in discussion about once a month... most recently, two weeks ago: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...38&postcount=8 Search!

I'd rather justify donations based on good actions within our hobby than knee-jerk reaction to funding from the other side. That's how I direct my funds these days -- beyond my basic memberships. If an organization wants my money, they need to show me specific good works that affect me... don't tell me what you're gonna do, tell me what you have done recently, and how that affects me.

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Old 04-20-2012, 11:26 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:30 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:27 PM   #50 (permalink)
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