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Old 05-08-2012, 08:24 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I would have to agree with Cruzilla - I don't know Don, I'm sure he is a great guy - but, it sounds like his TPAC is for national purposes. We need to fight here in California. i have always thought that a lawsuit will be the only way to settle this - the courts will eventually decide this - might as well know the answer now before we lose everything else. the federal land managers always cave to the environmentalist because they file suit now ask questions later - we don't do that... we've gotten good at writing letters, but you see how far that has gotten us. We gotta file suit....
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:55 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Can't find it either huh?
You used it first, if it was good enough for you . . .

Nah, it's that this is peanuts given what they've already taken and still owe us. It's just a new way of taking it, so why belabor the latest crap?

The proof will be in the outcome of the proposed lawsuit, if it ever happens.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:29 PM   #28 (permalink)
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You used it first, if it was good enough for you . . .

Nah, it's that this is peanuts given what they've already taken and still owe us. It's just a new way of taking it, so why belabor the latest crap?

The proof will be in the outcome of the proposed lawsuit, if it ever happens.
I was speaking about the Constitution...I can't find it in the Constitution.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:44 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I see the repeated "what can we do anyway" refrain that assumes that "they" are going to do whatever they want regardless of what we do. "They" are counting on this thinking.

We are a country of laws, but at the government level we learned long ago that laws are only as good as their enforcement, and the way you enforce laws is to go to trial, this is the way it has always been, but we have never developed the infrastructure to make this happen on a regular basis.

The OHVDC is the beginning of this infrastructure. The Trust Fund Diversion was the catalyst for it's formation but the intent is to create a legal fund for the defense of OHV and land use issues. Right now, the OHVDC is at the epicenter of this issue, and may be the only chance we have to keep our legislators in line.

The OHVDC web site can be found at ohvdc.org, and has a pay-pal link to make a donation. We will know in a few weeks if we have a good case, and if so we intend to file. At that point we will need to raise a significant sum to support a lawsuit with the intention of having it refunded afterwords.

This is the proven, and probably the only way to solve this problem.

Joe Sand
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:15 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I think we're in the right and will win eventually, unfortunately I'm also beginning to believe this State will be bankrupt long before we get there.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:24 PM   #31 (permalink)
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So, you come to us with a problem, a big one. But you come with no solutions.

In my office, if someone walks in my door with a problem, they have to be armed with a solution...that's the rule. If they come to me and dump something in my lap, and they don't have a solution - something I can do about it, they promptly get shown the door, and told to come back when they have one.

All I see here is pimping for two new organizations. Organizations with no track record. Who are they? a coalition? Of groups? Why not name the groups? One of the groups, the T-PAC has nothing to do with this situation

Why do we need YET ANOTHER group? How are they more effective than Cal4 or CORVA?

Are the OHV orgs we have not supporting this venture? If so, why not?

I see why you need money, but for such a risky proposition (potentially tossing 15K in the trash can), why not locate some private funding? Why come here to the people who can barely eek out a living in these seriously tough times. Again, why not go to the big Vendors or Clubs for your 15K.

Why are you trying to squeeze it out 10 bucks at a time on Pirate?
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:44 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I'm sorry, you're not understanding. We are currently in the first stage of a lawsuit, and have already spent about half of the 15K maximum, the investigation is underway, and we expect the result soon.

The solution is to sue. The money is not to support any new organization, it is purely to pay a distinguished law firm to make this happen. The OHVDC is only the non-profit agent to get this done.
This is and always has been the solution to issues like this, something the people that want to eliminate us figured out decades ago.

I understand being skeptical about a "new organization" since I'd be the first to admit that both money and time have been spent, and are being spent on things that are not likely to help, are doing the "same old thing" or are tossing money into a pot with no accountability what happens to it. This effort is a proven one, one that we are historically afraid to undertake, and every cent is accountable.

This money is coming from as many sources as we can imagine. This includes agencies effected by grant funds, companies effected by OHV issues, associations such as CORVA and Cal4, both of whom have made substantial donations, and individuals who have donated from several dollars to several thousand. One effort intends to get $1 from every green sticker owner in the state. Magazine articles are in the works, as well as information being sent to clubs throughout the state.

This information was initially posted on Pirate by Scott, who has been aware of this for some time... RTF is a significant donor, and I believe is prepared to make additional donations once we file. This is a forum for spreading important information, and that's what this is about.

You imply that it's a waste of time posting this information here, but I have to disagree. I also disagree that Pirate is made up of people who can't afford to make even small donations, or in some other way help support this cause. Be skeptical now, but learn about the issue and you will conclude like we have that this may be the only hope we have to prevent the OHV Division and all those who rely on grants from being stripped to the bone.

For skeptics, and non-skeptics, if you have questions you can contact me directly at Joe@jeepwhisperer.com. More information will be available on the web site before long, which should spell out the issue and the OHVDC.

Joe Sand, OHVDC Project Manager
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:21 AM   #33 (permalink)
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The solution that OHVDC is proposing is to sue. In these past several years - no current organization, Cal4, CORVA, etc have talked about filing a lawsuit. I am finally glad this new organization is actually taking the steps to do that.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:40 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Bingo!

When is the last time a motorized recreation group taken a pro active stance against an agency attempting to wrong us? Oh, we see lots of "intervention" by the groups in other org's litigation. The only other pro active litigation (here in California) I recall was that of the Coyote Canyon access issue that was (again) lead by CORVA.

Once again, CORVA is taking the agressive stance.

There is some very large motorized recreation groups that HAVE NOT participated in this legal effort as of this point. This perplexes me as the OHVDC is taking a pro active approach to protect the very OHV funding that allows the membership of these very same groups to conduct events on public lands.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:53 AM   #35 (permalink)
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The OHV Trust Fund is not protected by the Constitution of California and is treated like any other non-protected fund, that's really all we need to know with respect to monies transferred in the front door and out the back to the General Fund.

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We consider this taking to be illegal, and after a legal review, the law firm of Baker Manock & Jensen, specializing in California Constitutional Law has agreed that this is an investigation worth pursuing.

Baker Manock & Jensen has been retained to immediately commence a thorough investigation to determine whether, in its opinion, this taking is illegal and what remedies are available to us. This investigation may result in a suit against the State of California.
While these folks are at it perhaps they can look into getting all past funds “taken” returned as well? The two-year clock is running out on the terminator’s last raid, BM&J can consider it an anniversary quest.

If this investigation commences and determines that a lawsuit is in order I’d suspect that the money needed to see the fight through to whatever conclusion will make the initial $15k look like chump change. Sure, as it stands, if we win, the EAJA will kick in and reimburse some of the costs but if all that is accomplished were preventing the Governor from taking gas taxes, it would seem a shallow victory at best.

When all is said and done, win/lose or draw nearly every trail in California will be closed anyway if Big Green has their way, in the end it is all about National, Regional and Local politics.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:04 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Assembly Budget Subcommittee No. 3 Resources and Transportation
9:00 AM State Capitol Room 447
http://abgt.assembly.ca.gov/sites/ab...%20Hearing.pdf
Senate Budget Subcommittee No. 2 Resources, Environmental Protection, Energy and Transportation
2:30 or up adjournment of Rules Committee, Room 4203 (John Burton Hearing Room)
http://sbud.senate.ca.gov/sites/sbud...2Resources.pdf
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:07 AM   #37 (permalink)
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The OHV Trust Fund is not protected by the Constitution of California and is treated like any other non-protected fund, that's really all we need to know with respect to monies transferred in the front door and out the back to the General Fund.
You are right. The OHV Trust Fund is not protected by the Constitution.

But the vast amount of the revenue of the OHV Trust Fund is derived from the fuel tax transfer.

The fuel tax monies ARE protected by the Constitution.

The "taking" of last year (and ensuing years) of $ 10 million (earmarked for the OHV Fund) was from this very same fuel tax account. The legislature has committed an unlawful act in that they diverted monies from a protected account.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:15 AM   #38 (permalink)
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You are right. The OHV Trust Fund is not protected by the Constitution.
Hence ANY MONEY that ends up there is NOT PROTECTED!
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:35 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Bingo!

When is the last time a motorized recreation group taken a pro active stance against an agency attempting to wrong us? Oh, we see lots of "intervention" by the groups in other org's litigation. The only other pro active litigation (here in California) I recall was that of the Coyote Canyon access issue that was (again) lead by CORVA.

Once again, CORVA is taking the agressive stance.

There is some very large motorized recreation groups that HAVE NOT participated in this legal effort as of this point. This perplexes me as the OHVDC is taking a pro active approach to protect the very OHV funding that allows the membership of these very same groups to conduct events on public lands.



The unified effort to stop the 29 Palms base expansion is a pro-active approach. That's the last time I can think of, good enough? Need another example?

I was at the CMRC meeting that this effort was pitched by Amy. Specific questions asked never received an answer including what is the complete plan for the effort, how would it be funded, and by whom?

$15,000 to study lawsuit feasibility is what you are selling. Both BRC's legal council, and Ecologic Partners to the best of my knowledge did not like the odds on a lawsuit of this type. So if your association believes its worth a shot, no one is begrudging your effort. If you want to spend the money go for it.

But what your post is saying is that some how no-one else is doing a thing about this except CORVA. That's simply not the case. A couple of the association pay a pretty sharp Lobbyist in Sacramento who has been working on this for months. CORVA just does not participate in that effort, but you don't see them calling CORVA out for not putting money in that pot. CORVA Leadership does not agree with using that firm, so they don't participate. how would they know what is being done on this subject by the other groups?

I agree we need more pro-active effort. I hope this effort is successful so you can rub peoples nose in it. but until you get a check box in the win column, its just talk, and calling out other associations for not participating in your effort to raise money to pay to see if its feasible does little to further your cause.

Perhaps its time for CORVA to share what it has won with its Aggressive stance over the years, because from where I have been sitting none of the groups have won a damn thing for the OHV industry. All I have seen is Closed signs. Stop wasting time trying to sell your association on talk, and go produce some results, and I will be the first to jump on board and drink your koolaid.

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Old 05-09-2012, 11:35 AM   #40 (permalink)
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When Michigan faced the same situation (diversion of "protected" funds), we banded together with all the other types of protected funds (hunting, fishing, etc) and passed an amendment to Michigan's Constitution to protect them at that level. That solved it for us. There's not been a single attempt to raid any of the funds since they've become Constitutionally protected. Perhaps this is an avenue that could work for California as well?
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:42 AM   #41 (permalink)
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When Michigan faced the same situation (diversion of "protected" funds), we banded together with all the other types of protected funds (hunting, fishing, etc) and passed an amendment to Michigan's Constitution to protect them at that level. That solved it for us. There's not been a single attempt to raid any of the funds since they've become Constitutionally protected. Perhaps this is an avenue that could work for California as well?
Agreed.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:45 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Great idea!

How's that 2010 Proposition 22 working out for everyone?

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph...rnments_(2010)

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Old 05-09-2012, 11:51 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Great idea!

How's that 2010 Proposition 22 working out for everyone?

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph...rnments_(2010)

Swimmingly, can't you tell?
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:25 PM   #44 (permalink)
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"The lion's share of the millions in fuel taxes that fill the OHV fund comes from street legal vehicles," stated California PEER Coordinator Karen Schambach,

Someone should explain to KAREN....


That it requires FUEL to drive OHV vehicles....When I go OHV riding...I spend about 80% on fuel to GET there...and 20% on fuel to RIDE there..

Stupid beotch.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:01 PM   #45 (permalink)
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http://www.sacbee.com/2012/05/09/447...-proposal.html


MARK BOSTER / Los Angeles Times file, 2006
Like all state parks, Mono Lake Tufa State Natural Reserve, above, in the Eastern Sierra, must deal with a cut in funding. One way it's adjusting to the new reality is by charging a parking fee that will raise funds to staff an interpretive center, a process that is being handled by the nonprofit Mono Lake Committee.
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Lucy D'Mot's quest to visit all 70 of the California State Parks on the closure list
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AM Alert: Dianne Feinstein's challengers to mix it up online

4 hours, 11 minutes ago
Capitol Alert: California senators announce plan for keeping state parks open

21 hours, 42 minutes ago
AM Alert: California State University considers its own era of limits

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27 Comments | Print California senators roll out proposal aimed at keeping state parks open
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By Torey Van Oot
tvanoot@sacbee.com
By Torey Van Oot The Sacramento Bee
Last modified: 2012-05-09T17:13:25Z
Published: Wednesday, May. 9, 2012 - 12:00 am | Page 4A
Last Modified: Wednesday, May. 9, 2012 - 10:13 am
Copyright 2012 The Sacramento Bee. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Democratic Sens. Joe Simitian and Noreen Evans have rolled out a proposal aimed at keeping gates open at more than 50 California state parks set to close this summer.
The proposal, which will be heard by a Senate budget subcommittee this afternoon, includes shifting as much as $40 million from existing accounts for road maintenance, septic system repairs and trails and off-highway vehicle funds to cover parks' costs.
Other recommendations include facilitating operating agreements with nonprofits, improving entry fee collection and exploring other funding.
State parks officials announced last year that 70 of the state's 278 parks would be closed, projected to save about $22 million. The department has been able to form partnerships with nonprofits and local governments to keep 16 of those parks open. Richard Stapler, spokesman for Natural Resources Secretary John Laird, said officials are involved in talks involving about a dozen more parks.
Evans, a Santa Rosa Democrat whose Northern California district includes 20 parks on the original closure list, billed the plan as an alternative to what she said would "devastate" local economies and natural resources.
Simitian, D-Palo Alto, called closing the parks "fundamentally ill-conceived," especially given potential costs for shutting them down.
Department of Finance spokesman H.D. Palmer said any changes to proposals on parks funding would be reflected in Gov. Jerry Brown's revised budget plan, expected to be released Monday.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/05/09/447...#storylink=cpy
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:06 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Urgent!!!

For those of you who get this email, please make 2 phone calls TODAY.

There is a proposal that will be voted on today in Sacramento that will "SAVE STATE PARKS". That sounds great doesn't it? Well yes, EXCEPT the proposal TAKES $21million out of our OHV "Trust Fund" and gives it to State Parks.

If this is successful then the effect will be that all the State OHV funding for areas like CC Camp, Cow Mountain, Stonyford, Georgetown, Foresthill, Shasta-Chappie, Metcalf, pretty much all BLM and Forest Service OHV areas will be eliminated.

There are 3 Senators who have to vote today on this proposal for it to move forward to the next level. We need 2 NO votes to stop the theft of our OHV $$.

The good news is that we have 1 NO vote.

We need to tell the other 2 Senators to vote NO and keep their hands off of our OHV Trust Fund.

Call Senator Joe Simitian's office at 916-651-4011
Call Senator Alan Lowenthal's office at 916-651-4027

1. Be polite. The people that answer these phone calls are office staff and are not the decision makers. They will pass the message on.

2. The general message is "OHV Trust Fund money is for OHV recreation, it is not for State Parks to use. Vote NO on the SAVE STATE PARKS proposal."

3. Ask that they pass your message on to the Senator before the hearing today.

If you have a couple of more minutes and live in the general Santa Rosa area, Senator Noreen Evans is probably your representative. Call her office at 916-651-4002 and tell her staff the same thing. She is also a supporter of this plan.

You can watch the hearing today at 2:30 at this link. mms://192.234.214.75/SEN-4203

Thank you for any effort you can put on this.

Visit our Action Center for more here: http://cal4wheel.com/action-center
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:09 PM   #47 (permalink)
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This money is coming from as many sources as we can imagine. This includes agencies effected by grant funds, companies effected by OHV issues, associations such as CORVA and Cal4, both of whom have made substantial donations, and individuals who have donated from several dollars to several thousand.
I love to see CORVA and Cal4Wheel working together -- *this* is why I am a member to both. That RTF joined the OHVDC effort and funded, that's icing on the cake!

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The solution that OHVDC is proposing is to sue. In these past several years - no current organization, Cal4, CORVA, etc have talked about filing a lawsuit. I am finally glad this new OHVDC organization is actually taking the steps to do that.
I joined the one group that I could find to sue on the Eldorado National Forest -- none of the other groups would step up. I voted with my wallet, and I am happy to see this new coalition thinking a similar direction. 'Intervening' is weak sauce compared to actively 'suing' when it comes to charming greenbacks outta my wallet.

Randii

p.s.1. - I made a coupla calls today.
p.s.2. - I also support CMRC and any other organization or individual that is working to keep JV open
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:39 PM   #48 (permalink)
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never mind..figured it out.


I wish I had statistics on how many Green Stickers we have registered in California. That estimated percentage of use, is our percentage of the Gas Tax.....we don't run our junk on hydrogen.
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:17 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Yeah! Go amy!!
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:31 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I'll have the audio for most of it up in a moment.

There was one point that NOBODY in the OHV community challenged them on.....The Park dept said they had 15 million in road maintenance and enforcement.....Of that 15 million in allocation, HOW much of that was for paved roads that OHV can NOT drive on....versus OHV accessible. Before the next meeting...SOMEONE find out how many miles of OHV accessible roads are in the State Park system... and how many miles of PAVED...is the 15 million their total budget?
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